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I don't understand guns...

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    (Original post by Mysteries)
    As crazy as it seems, the reason that American govt is unable to impose any sort of gun control laws on the American people is because of a little thing called the second amendment. It's in the constitution which is the highest law in the US. It can never be changed.
    The reason for the second amendment was to allow the people to defend themselves against their own government.
    True about the 2nd Amendment, and I wouldn't advocate changing it as it would be against their culture & take away a safeguard against the government as said.

    But the Constitution can change, as it did to bring in Prohibition in 1920 and again at the repeal in 1933. That was becauise the "Commerce Clause" was seen to be relatively narrow in scope by the Supremes and Federal Court judges at the time, so the Federal government needed to amend the Constitution to take the power to control alcohol away from the States.

    It also changed when the voting age was lowered to 18 years for federal elections. 18-20 year olds were upset to come back from fighting for Uncle Sam abroad and then be barred from voting for the people who decided to send them off to war just because of their age, and there was a growing consensus in the West that 18 year olds were adults and should be treated as such rather than being considered minors until 21, so an Amendment was passed. In some states, 17-year-olds can vote in primaries or caucuses if they will turn eighteen by presidential election day, so there are some 17 year olds voting in the GOP race now.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    It's funny seeing British students anti=gun for the sake of reducing murder rates which implies you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security. Yet, I bet most of you guys are against more CCTV/biometric identity cards and would be the first screaming "OMG OMG 1984, 1984" even if they reduce the crime rates more. Why? Do you just arbitrarily choose when you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security?
    It's because guns have never been a part of mainstream British culture so we don't miss them. But some of us (mainly older than the people on this board) miss being able to go shopping, to the cinema or for a drink without black recording devices all over the ceiling of wherever we are.

    People are going to resist losing freedom they currently have for the sake of security more than being denied a freedom that they have never known (an elderly man wrote in the Mail when there was talk of increasing the standard handgun sentence yet again from 5 to 10 years' imprisonment that "within living memory you could buy any gun you wanted in the UK, including machine guns"- I suspect he meant 50-odd years ago.)
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    It's funny seeing British students anti=gun for the sake of reducing murder rates which implies you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security. Yet, I bet most of you guys are against more CCTV/biometric identity cards and would be the first screaming "OMG OMG 1984, 1984" even if they reduce the crime rates more. Why? Do you just arbitrarily choose when you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security?
    Being honest, I feel more....safe in the UK knowing that the statistical likely hood of me bumping into someone who could quite easily kill me with a gun is v.small.

    Hence why I would hate, and acually quite dread ever going to American simply of the fact that people can easily shoot you. A knife isn't that dangerous in someone's hand, but anyone holding a gun...you know there can be multiple deaths.

    I find it a little pointless, in a democratic society where we have free speech...Why is there a need to have guns for the general?

    I'll give you an example, few months ago there was rioting going on in the UK...it was pretty bad, luckily er dont have the general public to have guns....if they did, I'm pretty sure lots would have died.
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    (Original post by hevlar.kelmet)
    I'm not sure that the correlation is as strong as you make out. Have you got any statistics for this?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence#Homicide

    generally there is a correlation.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    It's funny seeing British students anti=gun for the sake of reducing murder rates which implies you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security. Yet, I bet most of you guys are against more CCTV/biometric identity cards and would be the first screaming "OMG OMG 1984, 1984" even if they reduce the crime rates more. Why? Do you just arbitrarily choose when you're willing to sacrifice freedom for security?
    Guns are designed for inflicting grievous harm or killing and are held by people who are willing to execute these acts, so their inherently dangerous nature is a reasonable aspect for wanting them illegalised. Surveillance encroaches on everybody, irrespective of their intentions or motives. Whereas the illegalisation of guns will only detriment those willing to harm or kill another, surveillance will detriment everybody.
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    The right to bear arms is in the Constitution, it's their right.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    If guns become illegal, it only means that when people get them illegally, the innocent people have no way of defending themselves.
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    (Original post by Doctor.)
    Being honest, I feel more....safe in the UK knowing that the statistical likely hood of me bumping into someone who could quite easily kill me with a gun is v.small.

    Hence why I would hate, and acually quite dread ever going to American simply of the fact that people can easily shoot you. A knife isn't that dangerous in someone's hand, but anyone holding a gun...you know there can be multiple deaths.

    I find it a little pointless, in a democratic society where we have free speech...Why is there a need to have guns for the general?

    I'll give you an example, few months ago there was rioting going on in the UK...it was pretty bad, luckily er dont have the general public to have guns....if they did, I'm pretty sure lots would have died.

    Lol, people won't easily shoot you. There's no gun epidemic in America unless you got to parts where there's gangs. But, the same can be said of the UK. Don't you remember when there was a whole stabbing epidemic with London gangs and teenagers dying like every month? The people that would've died would be the people who were breaking property. Do you believe that s a shop owner/person living in their house has the right to stab a robber to defend his shop/house?
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    Murder rates and social issues asides...

    Can you imagine trying to invade the USA, even if you got past the army/airforce/navy... ? :ninja:

    This essentially is why they have the right to bear arms.
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    Sorry, I've just had a good look through that data and it does not show any meaningful correlation.

    The first one shows the homicide rates but has no data on gun ownership percentages. The second one has a simplistic yes/no option for gun ownership and even then there is no significant correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates. It also overlooks the fact that some categories of firearm are permitted such as shotguns in the UK.

    I'm not saying there isn't any correlation (I can't find the relevant data) but that the data you've given me shows no correlation.
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    I don't think the government has any right to decide what people keep in their homes. Guns provide protection and are the ultimate expression of liberty for each person. Cars also cause a huge number of deaths but driving isn't something you could ban.

    Most people in the US own a firearm for personal protection of their own property, they aren't about to start a gang war or rob a bank. This actually makes guns a powerful deterrent. Just like nuclear weapons for example. The potential for genocide is always there, but only twice in 70 years or so have they ever been used. This is because we view them as something to show off that enhances a country's. Similarly if. gun crime is higher in the US than the UK, it's peoples attitudes that need to change. There needs to be less reason to use violence to get what you want. Theres a lot more inequality in the US, which leaves people on the edge of desperation, hence turning to crime. There's little government help for the poor and healthcare is reli expensive. A gun is just one way of committing crime, so removing that could lead to even more dangerous crimes using other weapons.
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    (Original post by Vazzyb)
    I believe that getting a license is really quite easy though...

    And the 'rate' means per 100,000 so that takes into account the population differences.

    I understand the requirement for guns in farming and some recreational activities but people are allowed to have guns out of those requirements far too easily in the United States.
    again it really depends by state some will throw guns around to any cretin who comes off the street some resemble the uk's gun laws in several respects.

    oops my mistake.

    mmm i agree, but its one of those basic rights that have been around since the founding fathers and any attempt to infringe on those rights could well be interpreted as a justification for said rights in the first place, to defend against an over bearing government and all that.

    although all that being said many countries in europe allow the possession of fire arms in broadly speaking the same manner as the states, switzerland [special case though], germany, italy, france, austria, sweden, norway etc. and the crime rates in these countries arent anything exceptional ... its the football mother culture we have in this country that if a few a complain and cite one or two very very rare occurances, in this case dunblain then the government will snap too and ban legally licensed sporting goods, take hand guns the olympic team cant even practice within the UK anymore due to legislation stemming from dunblain ... isnt that tragic?
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Lol, people won't easily shoot you. There's no gun epidemic in America unless you got to parts where there's gangs. But, the same can be said of the UK. Don't you remember when there was a whole stabbing epidemic with London gangs and teenagers dying like every month? The people that would've died would be the people who were breaking property. Do you believe that s a shop owner/person living in their house has the right to stab a robber to defend his shop/house?
    It was no epidemic lol, it was gang culture and kids who think "Ohhhh I'm bad ass, yeah ima square u up hop"....Subsequently get stabbed lol. It was not a big Issue, more blown out of proportion than anything tbf. Where as gun crime, its pretty big and the statistics just prove what everyone already knew.

    Someone having a knife in their house is a little different. There is no need to have something designed for killing in....anywhere :/. It makes no sense. We live in reasonably good countries in which there is no need. We have adequate police tbh.

    I just get scared at the fact that people that dont require any guns for any real reason are allowed to have them... I'm sorry but it does kind of make the constitution seem rather flawed as USA and the UK isn't bloody Syria or Libya!
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    (Original post by hevlar.kelmet)
    Sorry, I've just had a good look through that data and it does not show any meaningful correlation.

    The first one shows the homicide rates but has no data on gun ownership percentages. The second one has a simplistic yes/no option for gun ownership and even then there is no significant correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates. It also overlooks the fact that some categories of firearm are permitted such as shotguns in the UK.

    I'm not saying there isn't any correlation (I can't find the relevant data) but that the data you've given me shows no correlation.
    Then I can't find you any brilliant statistics, but I can tell you now that there is one.
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    all on all, guns are designed for thw sole purpose of killing...knife, make food! Unless you can make some sort of yummy food with a gun, the laws allowing the general public to have guns and carry thwm around....it just makes me a little sick at how crappy countries are. Sure if there was a threat, but honest what kinda threat is there? Call the policeeeee
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    Then I can't find you any brilliant statistics, but I can tell you now that there is one.
    So you just expect me and everyone else to take your word for it?

    Would you take my word for it if I said that there is a strong correlation between putting your right sock on first and homicide rates would accept that as a valid argument to make law against this?

    NB: I've got nothing against you personally I'm just making a point.
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    (Original post by Doctor.)
    It was no epidemic lol, it was gang culture and kids who think "Ohhhh I'm bad ass, yeah ima square u up hop"....Subsequently get stabbed lol. It was not a big Issue, more blown out of proportion than anything tbf. Where as gun crime, its pretty big and the statistics just prove what everyone already knew.

    Someone having a knife in their house is a little different. There is no need to have something designed for killing in....anywhere :/. It makes no sense. We live in reasonably good countries in which there is no need. We have adequate police tbh.

    I just get scared at the fact that people that dont require any guns for any real reason are allowed to have them... I'm sorry but it does kind of make the constitution seem rather flawed as USA and the UK isn't bloody Syria or Libya!
    There are around 5 homicides per 100000 people in the USA with most of that being suicides and gang crime. That means that on average if you managed to live to 20000 years of age you would be murdered once (unless you are going to commit suicide or join a gang you would live much longer).
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    (Original post by blueray)
    Well lets be honest, we know that lots (not all) of Americans are stupid ( no offence).
    We have all seen that video of Americans thinking there are 5 Eiffel towers.
    And they also think that Africa is a country.
    Now apply that same logic to guns...yeah doesn't really work.
    Well said Vazzy
    > America has a population of 300 million.
    > sees video of a handful of stupid Americans.
    > concludes all Americans are stupid.
    > fails to see the irony in calling other people stupid.
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    (Original post by hevlar.kelmet)
    So you just expect me and everyone else to take your word for it?

    Would you take my word for it if I said that there is a strong correlation between putting your right sock on first and homicide rates would accept that as a valid argument to make law against this?

    NB: I've got nothing against you personally I'm just making a point.
    Just think about it - giving more people more ways to kill others... Just look at most of the countries where guns are legalised; very few are utopias, are they?
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    (Original post by hevlar.kelmet)
    There are around 5 homicides per 100000 people in the USA with most of that being suicides and gang crime. That means that on average if you managed to live to 20000 years of age you would be murdered once (unless you are going to commit suicide or join a gang you would live much longer).
    Lets get in a suicidal-gang then lololol
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    (Original post by mevidek)
    Just think about it - giving more people more ways to kill others... Just look at most of the countries where guns are legalised; very few are utopias, are they?
    So? There are plenty of awful countries where guns are illegal.

    Have you considered that law abiding citizens are totally unable to defend themselves should someone attack them? Someone said just call the police, but by the time the police get there the crime will be long over.

    I myself have been in several violent encounters and in none of them did the police arrive until well afterwards. What if they had a knife? How should I defend myself?

    Should I just let myself get stabbed/beaten/strangled while I wait for the police?

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