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Reply 20
Original post by IRSP044
You clearly don't understand the IRA at all.
You actually think they're right wing ffs. Wise up.

And when was this march attacked?


Why are they not right-wing? Most of what they do is notoriously right-wing and even fascist. From corporal punishments, religious hatred, incitement of violence towards political opponents, homophobic, nationalist, very conservative. . .

It's why I find the lefts support for the IRA so baffling since they oppose a lot of what the left supposedly stand for.

The march was attacked yesterday. The IRA supporters buses were smashed up, a few of them knocked out, the march was stopped and they were pretty much chased out of Liverpool :biggrin:

I've got no sympathy at all. I fail to understand how they can claim to be Irish nationalists whilst living in Britain, a place they supposedly hate.
Original post by c471
1. Oh I see, so being white and wealthy makes you a bigot?

2.There is a awful lot of diversity in any party following. You probably just like to believe your party is all 'fight the power' while everyone else are child eating, grave defiling, monsters.

3. urrrr...do you not see what your saying?
'In predominantly white countries, the most likely people to vote for parties that have that have conservative policies relating to that country, are white?'
:shock:

4. people like you are ridiculous. Apparently not holding your viewpoint is a sign of lesser intellegence? get a grip.


1. Nope, but it makes you more likely to be ignorant of the problems faced by others. To say all wealthy white people are bigots would be wrong though - and of course, I didn't say that. This is the third time you've straw-manned in this thread. Want to do it again, or do you think you can debate against the points I actually make now?

2. No, I don't believe Labour is all 'fight the power'. Yet again, please, please stop straw-manning. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to argue, argue against what I'm actually saying, not against what you want me to say as you think it'll win you the argument. It's laughable. And no, there really isn't a lot of diversity in all parties. Yes, there are some black Tory voters. However, they're not exactly diverse - they only pick up 2% of the Black vote, compared to Labour's 80%. They are massively, predominantly, and disproportionally white.

3. Nope, I didn't say that. I said that the white people in those countries were more likely to vote for the parties on the right of their political system than the ethnic minorities in those countries. Please, are you ever going to attack one of my actual points, or are you just going to keep on making up points, pretending I've said them, then attack? :fatcontroller:

4. Nope, yet again you're making things up. I never said right wing people were less intelligent. I said they had a stereotype for being so.
However, this time one of your lies and made up arguments turns out to be correct - scientifically, it's been found that those who identify with right wing policies have, on average, lower IQs, and lower educational achievement, than those who identify with left wing policies and values.
There are been numerous studies done on this, in numerous countries, by universities and independent scientists. Most newspapers printed this (Guardian definitely did, including a satirical piece by Charlie Brooker that was hilarious), but my personal favourite was by the Daily Mail, for its comments below - its almost as if you can use them as evidence to back up the study in itself - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist

So, there. You're wrong on all counts. Then again, you're right wing - so I suppose we can't really blame you (you guys make a habit of being wrong, after all).
Reply 22
Original post by Maddog Jones
Lol, I love the consistent straw-manning going on here by the right wing (maybe too thick to take on someone in an actual debate?)

No, I did not say all right wing people are white and middle class people. I said they tended to be.

Again, I'll point out how right wing parties in every country across Europe and Northern America are more popular with white, middle class voters. Of course, you'd rather just list many political ideologies on the right wing to make yourself sound more intelligent - the classic chest-thumping of the right winger trying to fight his stereotype of being less intelligent.

Also, I do have the Labour party symbol, and I am a member, yes. I'm not right wing though. You can argue the parties policies have been, but I'm a member to change that.


Wow, nice Ad hom, see I can do it too, that useless, defeatist 'HURR DURR STRAW MAN" technique which people on here seem to use, which by the way, is completely devoid of what an actual straw man is.

Conservative parties accross europe do not represent the right at all, I wouldn't even class myself as right wing going by the bastardised definition the popitical and media elite have designed as an easy targetting, and dividing tool.

Much like the Lib-dems, labour, the Greens don't represent the left at all.

Most people I know who are right wing (non vote tory) do not, and will never vote tory and wouldn't vote for their european counter parts, nor in Sweden, my home country.

And if you are a member of the fabians, or the red-red labourites then why are you still clinging on to that joke of a party (not as much of a joke as the tories though) surely you should be trying to pull votes away from them towards socialists, syndicalist and unionist parties, or the greens. Like many of the tory's are moving to UKIP (and some Lib dems are going libertarian) which will is going to weaken the tory party next election, you should be considering moving votes to the above mentioned leftist parties. And since scotland may get independence before the next election (which will well and truely kill labour) you might aswell chance it. Because in a 2015 labour vs tory election, Labour will lose even with scotland.

And on a side note, most people in this country are not working class and/or working/underclass combined. Most people are middle, or lower-middle class. I'm sorry, but that's what the stats show, and in the consensus, even working class people (objectively) said they thought of themselves as lower-middle and/or middle class.

I myself am not middle class, and non of my right-wing friends or their parents are nor vote tory.
Reply 23
Original post by Zeffy
Why are they not right-wing? Most of what they do is notoriously right-wing and even fascist. From corporal punishments, religious hatred, incitement of violence towards political opponents, homophobic, nationalist, very conservative. . .

It's why I find the lefts support for the IRA so baffling since they oppose a lot of what the left supposedly stand for.

The march was attacked yesterday. The IRA supporters buses were smashed up, a few of them knocked out, the march was stopped and they were pretty much chased out of Liverpool :biggrin:

I've got no sympathy at all. I fail to understand how they can claim to be Irish nationalists whilst living in Britain, a place they supposedly hate.


Anti-Imperialism is not right wing lol. Kneecapping and shooting criminals was a necessity as the RUC refused to tackle criminality and instead tried to recruit criminals as informers. It was a war and people die in war, get over it.

"religious hatred, homophobic, very conservative. . ."

Sure just make it up as you go along then. Dont let facts get in your way.

I still haven't heard of this march? Wana post some links?
Original post by prog2djent
Wow, nice Ad hom, see I can do it too, that useless, defeatist 'HURR DURR STRAW MAN" technique which people on here seem to use, which by the way, is completely devoid of what an actual straw man is.

Conservative parties accross europe do not represent the right at all, I wouldn't even class myself as right wing going by the bastardised definition the popitical and media elite have designed as an easy targetting, and dividing tool.

Much like the Lib-dems, labour, the Greens don't represent the left at all.

Most people I know who are right wing (non vote tory) do not, and will never vote tory and wouldn't vote for their european counter parts, nor in Sweden, my home country.

And if you are a member of the fabians, or the red-red labourites then why are you still clinging on to that joke of a party (not as much of a joke as the tories though) surely you should be trying to pull votes away from them towards socialists, syndicalist and unionist parties, or the greens. Like many of the tory's are moving to UKIP (and some Lib dems are going libertarian) which will is going to weaken the tory party next election, you should be considering moving votes to the above mentioned leftist parties. And since scotland may get independence before the next election (which will well and truely kill labour) you might aswell chance it. Because in a 2015 labour vs tory election, Labour will lose even with scotland.

And on a side note, most people in this country are not working class and/or working/underclass combined. Most people are middle, or lower-middle class. I'm sorry, but that's what the stats show, and in the consensus, even working class people (objectively) said they thought of themselves as lower-middle and/or middle class.

I myself am not middle class, and non of my right-wing friends or their parents are nor vote tory.


Conservative parties are right wing, only those stupid libertarian extremists think otherwise - just because you aren't a diehard free marketer, doesn't mean you don't come down on that side of the spectrum.

As for moving away from Labour - there's no point. The British political system works with two umbrella parties for the 'right' and the 'left'. If socialists abandon Labour, that's just one less vote for Labour - ie, good news for the right. Not to mention the fact I'm a social democrat, not a full-blown socialist. I know that the Tories are as pleased with me voting SWP as I am with Tories voting UKIP - it's a wasted vote, and helps the other side. The only option is electoral reform (rejected by voters), or change the party from within.

Also, I never said the majority were working class in the UK. I know the middle class makes up the vast majority of the population.
Reply 25
Original post by IRSP044
Anti-Imperialism is not right wing lol. Kneecapping and shooting criminals was a necessity as the RUC refused to tackle criminality and instead tried to recruit criminals as informers. It was a war and people die in war, get over it.



So you're basically supporting the fact that the IRA deliberately targetted civilians?

So three year old Johnathan Ball and 12 year old Tim Parry, murdered by the IRA in Warrington deserved to die then because it was "a war"

They were kids, what the **** did they have to do with Imperialism? Yet the IRA went and planted bombs in Warrington High Street in the full knowledge that innocent people would get killed. How can you justify that? It wasn't an accident, they deliberately set out to murder innocent people without a care.

As for links, I'm not going to babysit you. Google "Liverpool IRA march" and it'll bring up a few links. It hasn't been reported on the news but the IRA and their lefty supporters are having a good cry about it :wink:

I'm glad they got battered. Anyone who supports a group who deliberately set out to murder innocent people deserve to get their heads kicked in.
I am a left leaning centrist and I'll be honest I find this glorisation of the IRA to be disgusting. I also find the Blacks and Tans to be disgusting. The simple fact of the matter is that both wings, unless they had some personal experience, both tend to think one side was "good" when really it was nothing of the sort. Both were guilty of atrocities and just goes to show that violence begats violence and that this was a case of idiots supporting bloodthirsty thugs, both sides.
Reply 27
Original post by anarchism101
At the very least, I support the annexation of areas with substantial nationalist majorities in Northern Ireland to the Republic.

That would never, ever work. You are saying that the Fountain Estate in Londonderry would be part of the UK, but totally surrounded by the RoI?
Reply 28
Original post by Zeffy
So you're basically supporting the fact that the IRA deliberately targetted civilians?

So three year old Johnathan Ball and 12 year old Tim Parry, murdered by the IRA in Warrington deserved to die then because it was "a war"

They were kids, what the **** did they have to do with Imperialism? Yet the IRA went and planted bombs in Warrington High Street in the full knowledge that innocent people would get killed. How can you justify that? It wasn't an accident, they deliberately set out to murder innocent people without a care.

As for links, I'm not going to babysit you. Google "Liverpool IRA march" and it'll bring up a few links. It hasn't been reported on the news but the IRA and their lefty supporters are having a good cry about it :wink:

I'm glad they got battered. Anyone who supports a group who deliberately set out to murder innocent people deserve to get their heads kicked in.


The IRA did not deliberately target civilians apart from a extremely small number of isolated attacks that where condemned by the vast majority of Republicans.

Warnings were given for that bomb which the Brit police didn't act on and evacuate the public. So why the **** would they given warnings if they wanted to kill innocent?

I have googled it and can only find vague mentions of the attack on Neo-Nazi and football hooligan sites? Hardly reputable sources.

You support people getting battered for killing civilians? Okay then I assume you would batter terrorist British soldiers for the thousands they have killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya recently???
Reply 29
Original post by IRSP044
Anti-Imperialism is not right wing lol. Kneecapping and shooting criminals was a necessity as the RUC refused to tackle criminality and instead tried to recruit criminals as informers. It was a war and people die in war, get over it.

"religious hatred, homophobic, very conservative. . ."

Sure just make it up as you go along then. Dont let facts get in your way.

I still haven't heard of this march? Wana post some links?


Anti-imperialism can be both left and right.
Personally I detest the IRA to such an extent it's madness the attempted bombers of that era weren't able to be executed for attempted mass murder and terrorism.
Original post by flugelr
That would never, ever work. You are saying that the Fountain Estate in Londonderry would be part of the UK, but totally surrounded by the RoI?


No, I was thinking more of large areas, though I appreciate it would still be difficult.

I'd say whatever the final borders were though, unionists who ended up in the RoI and nationalists who end up in NI should have their costs paid for them if they want to move to the other side.
Reply 32
Original post by ak137
I support the IRA and im not a 'lefty'.


Eh? Even today?

Violence by the IRA is totally unnecessary. There are now democratic means by which to achieve our goals. The Troubles were a horrific time in Ireland's history, something never to be repeated. No-one needs violence, death and war in today's society. I will always want a united Ireland as long as I live and nothing could ever change that.

The IRA as it stood years agoin the civil war and war of independance have disbanded. Whats left are horrible bitter small factions who cant let go of the hatred and want to get attention. They're not only terrorists, they're criminals, and I say this as a Nationalist and an advocate of a united Ireland. They're scum and the more they kill, the less likely it is for us to gain total independance.

The issue is very complicated these days, some polls put around half of the "Irish Catholics" in the North advocating the Union, I don't think it is as high as this - but a figure of 20 - 30% sounds reasonable, and obviously the overwhelming majority of the Ulster Scotch "Protestants" support the continuation of the union. There is no longer a system of discrimination in the North and personally I am horrified you advocate what remains of the IRA in the present era?
Reply 33
Original post by IRSP044
The IRA did not deliberately target civilians apart from a extremely small number of isolated attacks that where condemned by the vast majority of Republicans.

Warnings were given for that bomb which the Brit police didn't act on and evacuate the public. So why the **** would they given warnings if they wanted to kill innocent?

I have googled it and can only find vague mentions of the attack on Neo-Nazi and football hooligan sites? Hardly reputable sources.

You support people getting battered for killing civilians? Okay then I assume you would batter terrorist British soldiers for the thousands they have killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya recently???


Warnings were given so that makes it okay? If they didn't intend to kill innocent people they why plant bombs there in the first place moron? And the IRA did attack civilians deliberately, don't try to claim otherwise. Even planting bombs to blow up soldiers and government figures is wrong and cowardly to be honest and doesn't consider the thoughts and needs of the majority of Northern Irish who again, wish to remain part of the UK. What gives the IRA the right to fight for a united Ireland when the majority living in NI don't want that? It's forces their beliefs and ideals on other people.

The attack's mentioned on many left-wing sites too like libcom and Urban75, they're all crying about it. Also, quite a few Republican blogs are having a whinge about it.

lol, British soldiers aren't terrorists mate. When have they deliberately gone to kill innocent people?

Afghanistan they helped America fight a war against a violent, oppresive, intolerant regime that was keeping Afghanistan in the dark ages and to capture a terrorist who murdered thousands of people for no reason on 9/11. It was justified.

Iraq - I actually was against that war. It was pointless and waged purely to settle George Bushes and Americas own agenda. We should have stayed out.

Libya - I actually think we shouldn't have gotten involved but, saying that, the NATO interferrance actually resulted in very few civilian deaths and aided the rebels in overthrowing an oppressive dictator. Even though it was none of our business, a large majority of Libya's population wanted Gaddafi gone so it's hard to argue and say that the NATO interferance wasn't wanted (As was the case in Iraq which we should have stayed out of)

I can tell what sort of person you are. I'm guessing a middle-class kid wannabe anarchist. Struggling to find meaning in your sad, pathetic sheltered little lives so latch yourself onto any cause possible in order to "stick it to the man"

No doubt you support Squatters Rights whilst ignoring the plight of propety owners who have worked hard all their lives to buy property only to have filthy, unwashed scroungers move in.

No doubt you also supported the Dale Farm Travellers with no thought at all to the locals who had to put up with an illegal travellers site for years and the crime and disruption it caused.

No doubt you're the same left-wing idiot who supported the London Rioters and bleet on about "racism", "unemployment" "lack of opportunities" etc as if that's an excuse for smashing up peoples property and mugging innocent folk like that poor lad from Malaysia.

Simply put, you're a moron. A moron who latches onto any cause you can just to try and bring some meaning into your sad, over-priveledged little life.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 34
Original post by Maddog Jones
Conservative parties are right wing, only those stupid libertarian extremists think otherwise - just because you aren't a diehard free marketer, doesn't mean you don't come down on that side of the spectrum.

As for moving away from Labour - there's no point. The British political system works with two umbrella parties for the 'right' and the 'left'. If socialists abandon Labour, that's just one less vote for Labour - ie, good news for the right. Not to mention the fact I'm a social democrat, not a full-blown socialist. I know that the Tories are as pleased with me voting SWP as I am with Tories voting UKIP - it's a wasted vote, and helps the other side. The only option is electoral reform (rejected by voters), or change the party from within.

Also, I never said the majority were working class in the UK. I know the middle class makes up the vast majority of the population.


Well considering there aren't ant libertarians within conservative covernemnts apart from Doug Carswell in the UK and Tomas Haarten in Sweden. And most libertarians are libertarians for the social side, the Tory's are a socially conservative monster party.

The british system is horrendous, not as bad as America but we have two center right authoritarian parties in which people think they are 1000000000000000 miles apart. I wish we could have direct democracy TBH.

Well atleast you have aknowledges most people aren't working class, its a shame my socialist friend cannot accept so. And why be a social democrat and be a member of the fabian society? If their ideas were implemented fully, with no opposition, the majority of the UK's industry would be nationalised, atleast they want to end current military adventurism, hacksaw their way through the drug war and get us closer to democracy.

And libertarians are hardly extremist and call for complete privatisation of everything. The thing most people don't get about us classical liberals is that we want to start society off again. Privatising something after a long haul of nationalisation and/or socialisation is usually disasterous for advanced european countries, It does however, work wonder in emerging economies. Pre 98' Hong Kong, S.Korea, New Zealand, Estonia and chile being the finest examples.
Reply 35
Original post by Maddog Jones
1. Nope, but it makes you more likely to be ignorant of the problems faced by others. To say all wealthy white people are bigots would be wrong though - and of course, I didn't say that. This is the third time you've straw-manned in this thread. Want to do it again, or do you think you can debate against the points I actually make now?

2. No, I don't believe Labour is all 'fight the power'. Yet again, please, please stop straw-manning. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to argue, argue against what I'm actually saying, not against what you want me to say as you think it'll win you the argument. It's laughable. And no, there really isn't a lot of diversity in all parties. Yes, there are some black Tory voters. However, they're not exactly diverse - they only pick up 2% of the Black vote, compared to Labour's 80%. They are massively, predominantly, and disproportionally white.

3. Nope, I didn't say that. I said that the white people in those countries were more likely to vote for the parties on the right of their political system than the ethnic minorities in those countries. Please, are you ever going to attack one of my actual points, or are you just going to keep on making up points, pretending I've said them, then attack? :fatcontroller:

4. Nope, yet again you're making things up. I never said right wing people were less intelligent. I said they had a stereotype for being so.
However, this time one of your lies and made up arguments turns out to be correct - scientifically, it's been found that those who identify with right wing policies have, on average, lower IQs, and lower educational achievement, than those who identify with left wing policies and values.
There are been numerous studies done on this, in numerous countries, by universities and independent scientists. Most newspapers printed this (Guardian definitely did, including a satirical piece by Charlie Brooker that was hilarious), but my personal favourite was by the Daily Mail, for its comments below - its almost as if you can use them as evidence to back up the study in itself - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist

So, there. You're wrong on all counts. Then again, you're right wing - so I suppose we can't really blame you (you guys make a habit of being wrong, after all).


1) That is completely your opinion. What basis do you have to judge that people who earn more money than others or have a certain bias have a lesser view of their fellow man?
Your use of the word likely is just a technicality. You are using that point to further your own view. Typical politics. You hide behind words and technicalities. 'I never actually said that'. Any reasonable person would see the implication behind the phrasing, the prevelant stance etc

2) too copy your methods, I never actually said you though that. Stop putting words into my mouth. Also, why is the level of black voters a bench mark for diversity of view or opinion?

We in 'the left' aren't as simple as 'the right' - we don't all support the same thing. Some are massively anti-imperialist and support taking Britain's perceived 'colonies' off of her no matter the human cost. Most others, such as me, support the right to choose.


This was never an issue of race. stop bring convenient statistics and your agenda into this.

3) and here we go again. A rewording means I am putting words into your mouth?

OK, In european countries, what is the predominant skin colour? White. Why is this? Because this is the skin colour of the historical occupants of this region.
How are most ethnic minorities in these countries? immigration, on a larger scale in the last 100 years or so.

Any quarms yet?
Of these groups, are many likely to consider themselves of mixed or complex nationalities, rather than being soley, entirely that of the country they reside in? Yes.

Hence some of these groups are less likely to vote for parties which champion tougher immigration laws, or various foreign policy aims.

These statistics are a quirk of the nature of these groups. What relevance does this have to anything? Soldiers were more likely to vote for the tory party in the last election because of the pay rises they brought about. Every group has its own agendas, and so will have a political bias. Because of the political views of black voters, the Torys are automatically bigots?

4) That study is absolute rubbish.
It uses old data, from a time when issues like racism, homophobia etc were commonplace in society. As has been discussed in the thread on this report, it uses questions the scientists deem to have a certain political stance as a benchmark.

You say I dont confrom to your idea of arguement, and you come out with a study with as little genuine credability as a man in a tin foil hat.

And so what? Since when did the comments of a few people have any bearing on the stance of a political party or cross section of the population?
If this is true, by Dianne Abbotts comments, all of labour are racist.
Reply 36
Original post by Dubliner
Eh? Even today?

Violence by the IRA is totally unnecessary. There are now democratic means by which to achieve our goals. The Troubles were a horrific time in Ireland's history, something never to be repeated. No-one needs violence, death and war in today's society. I will always want a united Ireland as long as I live and nothing could ever change that.

The IRA as it stood years agoin the civil war and war of independance have disbanded. Whats left are horrible bitter small factions who cant let go of the hatred and want to get attention. They're not only terrorists, they're criminals, and I say this as a Nationalist and an advocate of a united Ireland. They're scum and the more they kill, the less likely it is for us to gain total independance.

The issue is very complicated these days, some polls put around half of the "Irish Catholics" in the North advocating the Union, I don't think it is as high as this - but a figure of 20 - 30% sounds reasonable, and obviously the overwhelming majority of the Ulster Scotch "Protestants" support the continuation of the union. There is no longer a system of discrimination in the North and personally I am horrified you advocate what remains of the IRA in the present era?


Would you support a united Ireland even if the majority living in NI don't want that?

Most living there wish to remain under UK rule. What gives Republicans and the IRA the right to change that against the wishes of the NI population?

If circumstances changed and the majority of the NI population wanted to leave the UK then I would support them but until that happens, I honestly don't see how people can support the idea of a united Ireland against the wishes of the NI population.
Reply 37
There was an IRA march in Liverpool yesterday? Wow, these guys want the Brits out of everywhere it seems!

Surely it was low key, and this is being made into a mountain out of a molehill? And only a few people supported this?
Reply 38
Original post by Zeffy
Would you support a united Ireland even if the majority living in NI don't want that?

Most living there wish to remain under UK rule. What gives Republicans and the IRA the right to change that against the wishes of the NI population?

If circumstances changed and the majority of the NI population wanted to leave the UK then I would support them but until that happens, I honestly don't see how people can support the idea of a united Ireland against the wishes of the NI population.


Absolutely not.

A majority in both the North and the South would have to give their consent in a referendum.
Reply 39
Original post by Dubliner
Eh? Even today?

Violence by the IRA is totally unnecessary. There are now democratic means by which to achieve our goals. The Troubles were a horrific time in Ireland's history, something never to be repeated. No-one needs violence, death and war in today's society. I will always want a united Ireland as long as I live and nothing could ever change that.

The IRA as it stood years agoin the civil war and war of independance have disbanded. Whats left are horrible bitter small factions who cant let go of the hatred and want to get attention. They're not only terrorists, they're criminals, and I say this as a Nationalist and an advocate of a united Ireland. They're scum and the more they kill, the less likely it is for us to gain total independance.

The issue is very complicated these days, some polls put around half of the "Irish Catholics" in the North advocating the Union, I don't think it is as high as this - but a figure of 20 - 30% sounds reasonable, and obviously the overwhelming majority of the Ulster Scotch "Protestants" support the continuation of the union. There is no longer a system of discrimination in the North and personally I am horrified you advocate what remains of the IRA in the present era?


Clapclap.

Right from the horses mouth here. Good look trying to convince the anti-fascist ultra progressives on this thread though, even when they hear of a closer represented opinion or fact they go into denial, heck, I wouldn't be suprised if they tell you that you are wrong.