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Why do so many on the Left support the IRA?

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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    Perhaps if you live in Ireland, or Iraq or Afghanistan, or India, or any number of other places where the British army have been an occupying, imperialist force you would consider them terrorists. There is no moral difference between a car bomb and a bomb dropped from a Fighter jet, both kill innocent people for political purposes.
    As I said, 99.9% if the time I'm pretty sure the armed forces don't seek to kill innocents whereas the IRA terrorists do. 99.9% of the time the armed forces seek to kill only those that do harm to them and to the local population, otherwise why else would they carry out hearts and minds?

    You're going to have to do better than that if you want to justify such a claim, not that I'd probably ever agree.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    As I said, 99.9% if the time I'm pretty sure the armed forces don't seek to kill innocents whereas the IRA terrorists do. 99.9% of the time the armed forces seek to kill only those that do harm to them and to the local population, otherwise why else would they carry out hearts and minds?

    You're going to have to do better than that if you want to justify such a claim, not that I'd probably ever agree.
    You should try reading a history book and not just accept what you're taught by the British establishment. At the turn of century the British set up the first concentration camps in South Africa during the Boers War. An estimated 30, 000 civilians died as a result of inhumane treatment at the hands of the British army. During the Second World War the British army carpet bombed Dresden, an almost entirely civilian city with few industrial targets, 25,000 people were killed. Closer to home the Glencoe Massacre, Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy massacre, not to mention the British army and security forces proven collusions with Loyalist terrorists. These are just a few of many examples of the behaviour of the British army through the years. The IRA were responsible for 644 civilian deaths during the Troubles. Kind of puts it in perspective compared with the atrocities carried out by the British army through the years.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    You are playing the moral card
    Says you.
    and actually yes I can consider the IRA terrorists and not the British Army, because the British army are not. Although I'd love to see your argument as to why to consider them to be. Oh and by that I mean a real arguement not just a list of countries the army has been in or involved with.
    Here....
    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    As I said, 99.9% if the time I'm pretty sure the armed forces don't seek to kill innocents whereas the IRA terrorists do. 99.9% of the time the armed forces seek to kill only those that do harm to them and to the local population, otherwise why else would they carry out hearts and minds?

    You're going to have to do better than that if you want to justify such a claim, not that I'd probably ever agree.
    This may well be true but that is not the full definition of terrorism.
    Deffinition of terrorism:
    The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
    British/American/NATO venture into the ME fits the definition.
    Do you really think the people of Afghanistan, Iraq love being occupied & bombed? Iraqis even said we were worse than Saddam - and that is saying something, considering how ruthless Saddam was!

    Imagine if a foreign force attacked, occupied and bombed Britain, how scared will you and I be? Look at the August '11 riots - people were ****ting themselves over a petty (in comparison to an occupation) riot, imagine how frightened would they have been if we'd been occupied? On Channel4, debates were held days after the riots. Did you see some people's shock of how their property (shops, houses) burnt down? and how much sympathy they got? Shops, houses in Iraq, Afghanistan get burnt down everyday by bombs dropped in my name. No one in britain gives a **** and neither do you because A) you are conditioned to be desensitised to people that do not share your colour/class/background and B) you cannot possibly relate to what these people go through everyday.
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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    You should try reading a history book and not just accept what you're taught by the British establishment. At the turn of century the British set up the first concentration camps in South Africa during the Boers War. An estimated 30, 000 civilians died as a result of inhumane treatment at the hands of the British army. During the Second World War the British army carpet bombed Dresden, an almost entirely civilian city with few industrial targets, 25,000 people were killed. Closer to home the Glencoe Massacre, Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy massacre, not to mention the British army and security forces proven collusions with Loyalist terrorists. These are just a few of many examples of the behaviour of the British army through the years. The IRA were responsible for 644 civilian deaths during the Troubles. Kind of puts it in perspective compared with the atrocities carried out by the British army through the years.
    Funnily enough I have read a history book. I'm well aware of the concentration camps in the Boer war, but that's irrelevant.

    I'm well aware that the British bombed Dreseden heavily inflicting heavy civilian losses, but that's irrelevant.

    The Massacre of Glencoe, irrelevant.

    Do you know why those are irrelevant? Because it's nowt to do with Northern Ireland and it's not a reflection of the millitary today which doesn't purposely target civilians 99.9% of the time. Especially since the millitary have used hearts and minds techniques since the late 50's whilst fighting in Malaya.

    About those other incidents you mentioned concerning the deaths of civilians at the hands of the British armed forces, I'm not defending their actions but I think a bit of perspective is needed.

    Your post not only fails to prove your silly little theory that the British army is full of terrorists, but it fails because you dig through historical events over a period of...300 years perhaps, to try and prove that the modern British forces or the forces over the last 35 to 40 years are terrorists.

    Yeah, nice one. But your argument failed because your examples are irrelevant, as if your argument wasn't weak enough as it was.

    Let me say it again, I don't support the unncessary deaths of civilians, however I won't accept lectures about morality from the IRA or supporters of the IRA. It doesn't matter how hard you try, the IRA were and are terrorist scum who used their cause to act as gangsters.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    Funnily enough I have read a history book. I'm well aware of the concentration camps in the Boer war, but that's irrelevant.

    I'm well aware that the British bombed Dreseden heavily inflicting heavy civilian losses, but that's irrelevant.

    The Massacre of Glencoe, irrelevant.

    Do you know why those are irrelevant? Because it's nowt to do with Northern Ireland and it's not a reflection of the millitary today which doesn't purposely target civilians 99.9% of the time. Especially since the millitary have used hearts and minds techniques since the late 50's whilst fighting in Malaya.

    About those other incidents you mentioned concerning the deaths of civilians at the hands of the British armed forces, I'm not defending their actions but I think a bit of perspective is needed.

    Your post not only fails to prove your silly little theory that the British army is full of terrorists, but it fails because you dig through historical events over a period of...300 years perhaps, to try and prove that the modern British forces or the forces over the last 35 to 40 years are terrorists.

    Yeah, nice one. But your argument failed because your examples are irrelevant, as if your argument wasn't weak enough as it was.

    Let me say it again, I don't support the unncessary deaths of civilians, however I won't accept lectures about morality from the IRA or supporters of the IRA. It doesn't matter how hard you try, the IRA were and are terrorist scum who used their cause to act as gangsters.
    My point was that you cannot accuse me or others who support the struggle in Ireland of being terrorist sympathisers when the Army that you seem to adore has been responsible for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilian deaths. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
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    (Original post by ak137)
    Says you.
    Yeah says me, because it's bleeding obvious.

    This may well be true but that is not the full definition of terrorism.
    Deffinition of terrorism:
    The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
    British/American/NATO venture into the ME fits the definition.
    Do you really think the people of Afghanistan, Iraq love being occupied & bombed? Iraqis even said we were worse than Saddam - and that is saying something, considering how ruthless Saddam was!
    Well firstly the Iraqi people welcomed the forces into the country. Remember?

    Secondly the NATO forces aren't the ones bombing people in Iraq and A'Stan and I seriously doubt they have killed more civilians than the terrorists whether it's shooting them or by detonation.
    That definition of terrorism you provided is the correct definition but it's a fairly loose term, and by that I mean that it doesn't mean an army automatically fits that description.
    That definition would most likely apply to an organisation that is ruthless, merciless and imperialistic to name just a few. Well ruthless? Nope, merciless? Nope, and imperialistic? Not anymore, and not for a long time.

    I wouldn't call an organisation like the army that does peacekeeping terrorists. How many terrorist organisations do you know do peacekeeping?

    I get the impression you don't really know the full extent of millitary operations. You see only the bad and jump on the bandwagon, condemning them and calling them terrorists etc etc without knowing all the good that they actually might be doing. The hearts and minds, peacekeeping, hostage rescue, etc etc.

    Another reason why your argument fails.

    Imagine if a foreign force attacked, occupied and bombed Britain, how scared will you and I be? Look at the August '11 riots - people were ****ting themselves over a petty (in comparison to an occupation) riot, imagine how frightened would they have been if we'd been occupied? On Channel4, debates were held days after the riots. Did you see some people's shock of how their property (shops, houses) burnt down? and how much sympathy they got? Shops, houses in Iraq, Afghanistan get burnt down everyday by bombs dropped in my name. No one in britain gives a **** and neither do you because A) you are conditioned to be desensitised to people that do not share your colour/class/background and B) you cannot possibly relate to what these people go through everyday.
    :rofl: :rofl:

    I've been conditioned, ooooh nooooo :woo: :woo: The government maaan, the government has conditioned my braaaaain!!!! Pass the tinfoil hat.

    What a load of crap. To me, colour, class and background are irrelevant so you're wrong....again.
    I was shocked by the riots and I am always shocked by destruction of property, people's lives and the loss of innocents. And when they go to hospital guess where the medicine comes from? I'm sure no medical attention comes from the millitary out there at all, surely not.

    The idea that no-one in Britain gives a **** is dead wrong. The idea that I don't give a **** is dead wrong and I'll thank you not to make silly assumptions like that, unless you want to negate your argument even more.

    You're right about one thing, I can't relate to what they are going through, however that doesn't mean I don't give a damn.
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    I find support for the IRA baffling.

    A minority group using violence to try and seperate a State of Union. How can that be a cause anyone would support? Don't get me wrong, I do understand support for the IRA of the early 20th century, they had a point. Just as I understand the likes of the Indian Independance movement and so forth, don;t support, but understand. But the IRA since then, since the creation of Northern Ireland, well, support for them I do not understand.
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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    My point was that you cannot accuse me or others who support the struggle in Ireland of being terrorist sympathisers when the Army that you seem to adore has been responsible for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilian deaths. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
    I can call you a terrorist sympathiser if you support the IRA which is...guess what...at terrorist organisation!
    Yes the British army has been responsible for many civilian deaths but that doesn't make it an all round terrorist organisation and since each incident was different and over hundreds of years it's really silly to label it so because of them.

    Plus that "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" line is not really true when the organisation is a scum ridden terrorist organisation that thrived on pain, suffering, and scare tactics for their own gains, which by the way wasn't just a united Ireland but also money and power.

    So those people you support were/are not only terrorists but greedy, corrupt, mass murdering gangsters.

    So somehow I don't think one can complain about the British army or compare the two.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    I can call you a terrorist sympathiser because you support the IRA which is...guess what...at terrorist organisation!
    Yes the British army has been responsible for many civilian deaths but that doesn't make it an all round terrorist organisation and since each incident was different and over hundreds of years it's really silly to label it so because of them.

    Plus that "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" line is not really true when the organisation is a scum ridden terrorist organisation that thrived on pain, suffering, and scare tactics for their own gains, which by the way wasn't just a united Ireland but also money and power.

    So those people you support were/are not only terrorists but greedy, corrupt, mass murdering gangsters.

    So somehow I don't think one can complain about the British army or compare the two.
    I don't support the IRA, I'm a pacifist. I do support the prinicples of Republicanism though and I think anyone with even a basic understanding of Anglo-Irish history would be hard pressed to argue against the right of the Irish people to a reunified, independent, 32 county republic, free from British rule.
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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    You should try reading a history book and not just accept what you're taught by the British establishment. At the turn of century the British set up the first concentration camps in South Africa during the Boers War. An estimated 30, 000 civilians died as a result of inhumane treatment at the hands of the British army. During the Second World War the British army carpet bombed Dresden, an almost entirely civilian city with few industrial targets, 25,000 people were killed. Closer to home the Glencoe Massacre, Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy massacre, not to mention the British army and security forces proven collusions with Loyalist terrorists. These are just a few of many examples of the behaviour of the British army through the years. The IRA were responsible for 644 civilian deaths during the Troubles. Kind of puts it in perspective compared with the atrocities carried out by the British army through the years.
    :rolleyes: Why do people always do this? The only relevant example theres there are Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy incident. But let's look at these emperically. Two, singular incidents in an ongoing campaign. Two incidents where there was wrongdoing, but do you know what makes them so shocking? So apart from the norm? Well, it's exactly that. These were two exceptional incidents, tragedies, where events conspired so that a few in the British Army, which numbers over 100,000 men, so perhaps a dozen or two, acted rashly, and fired. This shows us what now? It shows us that their actions were not State sanctioned, their actions were not part of an ongoing strategy, they were out of the ordinary and not ordered. Surely this is evidence as much as anything else against the British forces being terrorist.


    (Original post by ak137)
    Says you.

    Here....

    This may well be true but that is not the full definition of terrorism.
    Deffinition of terrorism:
    The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
    British/American/NATO venture into the ME fits the definition.
    Do you really think the people of Afghanistan, Iraq love being occupied & bombed? Iraqis even said we were worse than Saddam - and that is saying something, considering how ruthless Saddam was!

    Imagine if a foreign force attacked, occupied and bombed Britain, how scared will you and I be? Look at the August '11 riots - people were ****ting themselves over a petty (in comparison to an occupation) riot, imagine how frightened would they have been if we'd been occupied? On Channel4, debates were held days after the riots. Did you see some people's shock of how their property (shops, houses) burnt down? and how much sympathy they got? Shops, houses in Iraq, Afghanistan get burnt down everyday by bombs dropped in my name. No one in britain gives a **** and neither do you because A) you are conditioned to be desensitised to people that do not share your colour/class/background and B) you cannot possibly relate to what these people go through everyday.
    You know what though? If Britain was being ruled by a genocidal dictator or regressive theocratic regime, I'd welcome the bombs. If I was stripped of my civil liberties, had no Human Rights and lived in fear of the State, I'd welcome those 'invaders'. If my country was harbouring, training and funding groups that kill thousands of innocents delibertley in bombings in the name of religion. I's take up arms to help the 'invaders'.
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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    I don't support the IRA, I'm a pacifist. I do support the prinicples of Republicanism though and I think anyone with even a basic understanding of Anglo-Irish history would be hard pressed to argue against the right of the Irish people to a reunified, independent, 32 county republic, free from British rule.
    Except the Northern Irish peoples right to self-determination....
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    (Original post by peacefrog16)
    I don't support the IRA, I'm a pacifist. I do support the prinicples of Republicanism though and I think anyone with even a basic understanding of Anglo-Irish history would be hard pressed to argue against the right of the Irish people to a reunified, independent, 32 county republic, free from British rule.
    I'm pretty indifferent when it actually comes the subject of whether Ireland should be unified or not. I'm pretty undecided on the matter, however that's not even the main point. The point is the supporters of the IRA and how they think it's logical to call the British army "terrorists."

    It's laughable.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    You know what though? If Britain was being ruled by a genocidal dictator or regressive theocratic regime, I'd welcome the bombs. If I was stripped of my civil liberties, had no Human Rights and lived in fear of the State, I'd welcome those 'invaders'. If my country was harbouring, training and funding groups that kill thousands of innocents delibertley in bombings in the name of religion. I's take up arms to help the 'invaders'.
    I wouldn't. I would rather start our own internal revolution.

    EDIT: And T_C, ill reply to you later.
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    thunder_chunky your ignorance is breathtaking!
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    (Original post by tekno)
    thunder_chunky your ignorance is breathtaking!
    Yeah well I have been conditioned by the government maaaaan
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    Yeah well I have been conditioned by the government maaaaan
    Did they condition you to be stupid as well as ignorant?
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    (Original post by tekno)
    Did they condition you to be stupid as well as ignorant?
    I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I'm ignorant.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I'm ignorant.
    Well at least you don't need me to tell you how your stupid
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    (Original post by tekno)
    Well at least you don't need me to tell you how your stupid
    Frankly I don't really care if you think I'm stupid and even though I obviously think you are wrong I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about that.
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    The Provisional IRA were not terrorists. For ****'s sake. They killed ONE civilian, a photographer who ignored the evac warnings to get a better shot.

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