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Israel Petition

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    (Original post by neeloo)
    I will never recognise the state of Israel.
    Period.
    Haha, funny thing is that the person you quoted does recognize the state of Israels right to existence.
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    No.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Haha, funny thing is that the person you quoted does recognize the state of Israels right to existence.
    Misread and posted to wrong person. sorted.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Don't blame him, blame the propaganda poured into the mind of every Israeli. They are taught to undervalue other people, to them it's kill or be killed when that is such an evil untruth. The Jewish people are being robbed of the morality that held strong through torture, slavery, persecution, exile and even the Holocaust. Why is it that we break now? What cruel trick takes the will to peace away from us in a World where we now have the best chance of achieving it.
    Oh, shut up. Israeli's are some of the kindest people on Earth when you consider the circumstances that they live in. The IDF alpine unit annually takes sick children [including Palestinians] to the mountains for a day out, Israeli groups such as SACH offer free live saving heart surgery to thousands of Palestinian children [amongst children from other developing countries], groups have provided free hearing aid (worth a total of $1,000,000) to Palestinians, Israeli disaster relief teams are world renowned and are usually the first on the scene, Israeli technology and innovation benefit millions worldwide in both developed and developing countries and so on - a lot of this generosity is extended to their own 'enemies' and given the fact that they live under the constant threat of destruction and well within the range of their genocidal enemies rockets, I can forgive many Israelis for the attitudes that they hold.

    You on the other hand are probably some 'progressive' thinking, 'enlightened' leftist American/British Jew, you know, the type who says 'as a Jew... Israel is this and that', as if being Jewish is meant to bolster your idiotic views.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Even self-hating Jews are Jews, there is no "true Jews" as we are all one and the same.

    My issue isn't that he does not support the current government (hell I don't) but more to do with his stance on Israel as a whole. To me it seems as if he wished that Israel did not exist as a country and as a Jew he should know what a stupid stance that is even for a self-hating Jew.

    If he wants to correct me on his stance he can.
    Self-hating Jews exist. Look at Israel. The belief that the Jewish people need to rely on violence, breaching the morality that makes us Jewish, in order to survive when in fact it's the violence that causes hatred towards us. If we engaged peacefully with the sovereign state of Palestine then Hamas would stop and Iran would lose its proxies. They send one IED and we retaliate with tanks, artillery, and armoured vehicles. Anyway, I refuse to let this turn into an Israel right/wrong debate, just don't call me a traitor, we probably both care for the Jewish people, I just do so in a way that accomodates my religious values.
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    There is no evidence to support the 'false flag' accusations but Israel is guilty of needless warmongering rhetoric, trying to create a conflict with Iran that there is absolutely no need for.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    To me condemning like this is like an overweight security guard in a shop saying to a teenage boy "don't put that chocolate bar in your pocket! Ok but you will pay right? Ok don't walk to the door! Ok don't walk out! I'm warning you, if you walk out. Ok don't get on the bus...." and so on

    My point (through that rather silly example) is that symbolic gestures are, in this case, rather pointless. Especially when dealing with Israel who can be pretty stubborn.
    However, consider the example from this position. Has the guard done his job by trying to stop the boy? Yes. If he did nothing, then he would be neglecting his duties. Taking that a little further, it may not achieve anything, but we're fulfilling our duty to stand by what we believe in. I don't support this petition because I believe that any tangible results will come of it. I support this petition because it is right that we stand up for what we believe in.
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    (Original post by Birchington)
    There is no evidence to support the 'false flag' accusations but Israel is guilty of needless warmongering rhetoric, trying to create a conflict with Iran that there is absolutely no need for.
    There's no solid proof, I agree. When you look at the wider context - Israel widely believed to be on the verge of open war, Iran totally wanting to avoid war out of self-interest. Also, these attacks were conducted by known mercenaries, as opposed to Hezbollah/Iranian operatives. Even if they'd gone 'well' there would have been no benefit to Iran, I think the evidence points to them being false-flag.

    *Israel has a history of using such tactics as well.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Self-hating Jews exist.
    What did I say? the first line, "Even self-hating Jews are Jews". It was more about there being no single true Jew, all Jews are Jews regardless.

    Edit: We have derailed the tread enough so lets stop.
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    Things are developing quickly! http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ef-israel-iran The Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff has joined in condemning Israeli for planning strikes.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Things are developing quickly! http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ef-israel-iran The Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff has joined in condemning Israeli for planning strikes.
    Whilst selling them the bunker buster missiles they need to actually conduct such an operation. Even Bush didn't do that.

    Israel widely believed to be on the verge of open war, Iran totally wanting to avoid war out of self-interest.
    Absolute conjecture.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    Whilst selling them the bunker buster missiles they need to actually conduct such an operation. Even Bush didn't do that.



    Absolute conjecture.
    Absolute conjecture. From the U.S. intelligence agencies: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news...-official-says

    Ahmadinejad's gang is stuck between a rock and a hard place; they don't want war, but can't be seen to buckle under American pressure - there is a growing rift between the President and Ayatollah.

    And please don't start get me started on how the U.S. military-industrial complex does not represent the U.S. State Department's policy.
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    I don't really see the logic in condemning a country for something it hasn't done yet. To my knowledge these are all rumours originating from outside Israel anyway.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    The UN? Aha, stop messing around. You and I - I'm assuming you don't live in Israel, so please correct me if I'm wrong - have the luxury of living in a country whose existence is not, on a day by day basis, threatened. Several times in the countries short history, it has had its massively larger neighbours mount their troops on its borders with a war ensuing.

    In 1948, the UN came up with a plan. The Jews agreed, the Arabs did not. The Israeli's declared independence based on the borders in said UN agreement (a move which the UN recognised as Legitimate just a year later) yet stood idly by as Israel's neighbours immediately invaded (and where, btw, Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip). The UN did nothing. In 1967, once again hundreds of thousands of troops were massed around Israel's border. Given the enormous inequality of troop numbers, had Israel not unilaterally struck first, it's entirely possible they wouldn't exist anymore. Again, the UN did nothing.

    You should thank your stars that you have the luxury or living in a country that can afford to wait for ineffectual UN resolutions to conduct war legally (as if that's not an oxymoron enough - all wars are crimes, though they are sometimes necessary). If Israel had taken that stance over the entirety of its existence, it wouldn't still be here. And yet you still expect them to sit there and wait whilst Iran builds a nuke, because Russia and China - those bastions of rights and freedoms - haven't signed off on an attack? Pfft.
    Are you condoning the haganah bridgade which created israel? they were designated a terrorist organisation by everyone at the time
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    (Original post by levantine)
    Are you condoning the haganah bridgade which created israel? they were designated a terrorist organisation by everyone at the time
    I'm not condoning or condemning anyone but the UN, which was my point - the UN is useless.
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    (Original post by Student2806)
    I don't really see the logic in condemning a country for something it hasn't done yet. To my knowledge these are all rumours originating from outside Israel anyway.
    So you don't approve of economic sanctions against Iran for attempting to get nukes?

    The fact is, precedence dictates that it's fine to issue warnings/condemnations against crimes not yet committed.
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    I feel that publicly condemning opposition to Iran, especially opposition like Israel that seems not to have many limits to their response over the issue, would only give confidence to Ahmadinejad. Tehran does not want to entice the wrath of Israel, with the possibility of enticing Washington as a result, before they have nuclear weapons and if we eliminate this military threat to Iran, it leaves very little physical restraint on them.

    However, we do not want to ignite a conflict in the Middle East, obviously. But, we must not remove a check to the progress in Iran's nuclear programme that may be able to delay them enough to allow diplomatic action or economic sanctions to take full effect.
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    This petition has gone to a Division, where the MPs of the TSR Model House of Commons will vote on whether they support it or not. If you want to find out more about the Model House of Commons, including how to become an MP or submit your very own petition, click here.

    Division!!
Updated: February 26, 2012
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