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Is being anti-Islamic/Islamophobic a good thing or bad thing

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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Did I say being critical of it was? No, I said being so prejudiced as to willingly present quotes as something other than they are is.




    I know it's not a race, but we here in the West treat them as a race more often than not and racism has long since divorced itself of that primordial meaning anyway. Hence why we have people like you who espouse Cultural Racism, thinking it makes your prejudice more valid.

    Prejudice is never valid.
    How exactly is it prejudice as he / she is using actual quotes from the Koran ?
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    Having the freedom to insult or criticise an ideology is a good thing. Discriminating against a person (e.g. refusing to serve them food, rejecting their job application), because of their religion however is a bad thing.

    I don't like Islam btw. Nor do I like Catholocism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, because they teach a message which is false in my opinion -- I'm a (Protestant) Christian.

    I have nothing against people of other religions, I just don't like the religions they subscribe to .
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    (Original post by Veale)
    How exactly is it prejudice as he / she is using actual quotes from the Koran ?
    Maybe if you read what I'd posted instead of jumping down my throat, you might see.

    He says the teachings are against homosexuality, they're not. Misrepresentation of the quote.

    He says the quote shows that the teachings allow for the indiscriminate killing of women and children. The quote provided shows no such thing. Misrepresentation again.

    It is prejudice because ideas4life is wanting to present the teachings in one light, a light highly filtered by his own prejudices, and that light is not actually representative of the teachings themselves. When someone tries to put a spin on something to foster hate of something, that is prejudice and it is wrong. It is not the same as criticising, which is perfectly valid (for example, we can happily criticise a teaching against sodomy).

    He also refuses to discuss the positive points in Islam.
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    (Original post by Nephilim)
    Having the freedom to insult or criticise an ideology is a good thing. Discriminating against a person (e.g. refusing to serve them food, rejecting their job application), because of their religion however is a bad thing.

    I don't like Islam btw. Nor do I like Catholocism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, because they teach a message which is false in my opinion -- I'm a (Protestant) Christian.

    I have nothing against people of other religions, I just don't like the religions they subscribe to .
    so basically your way or no way? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by ideas4life)
    I am leftist.

    But unfortunately, according to many of my fellow leftists, being against islamic teachings or criticising it isnt "ok"....it makes you islamaphobic.

    And i thought leftist people would be the exact opposite, since they are for gay rights e.t.c WHICH ISLAM IS NOT

    What has the world come to !
    'Islamophobia' is not a real word. A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike of something. A fear or dislike of Islam is not an irrational emotion, but a healthy, honest reaction to what we see of Islam in the world.

    That's not to say that all Muslims are bad people; most are good and decent, but a strong element of their religion is intolerant and hostile to non-Muslims and many other groups.

    It is a long tradition in the West that ideas, religion included, should be open to critical evaluation and even ridicule. The ability to use reason to judge something on its merits is regarded as a sign of an enquiring and intellectually fertile mind. So no, it is not a bad thing to be opposed to militant Islam or aggressive Christianity or any toher idealogy that causes human suffering.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Maybe if you read what I'd posted instead of jumping down my throat, you might see.

    He says the teachings are against homosexuality, they're not. Misrepresentation of the quote.

    He says the quote shows that the teachings allow for the indiscriminate killing of women and children. The quote provided shows no such thing. Misrepresentation again.

    It is prejudice because ideas4life is wanting to present the teachings in one light, a light highly filtered by his own prejudices, and that light is not actually representative of the teachings themselves. When someone tries to put a spin on something to foster hate of something, that is prejudice and it is wrong. It is not the same as criticising, which is perfectly valid (for example, we can happily criticise a teaching against sodomy).
    Heres prove being homosexuals also means death penalty in Islam

    Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver.
    Tirmidhi 1:152
    Happy now, hope you stop saying Islam is not against homosexuals
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    (Original post by Veale)
    How exactly is it prejudice as he / she is using actual quotes from the Koran ?
    You can easily manipulate quotes, look at this for example

    [Quran 9:5]And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.

    A lot of people on-line I see doing this, but they forget what else there is ............the verse goes on to say

    But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 9:6]And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    You can easily manipulate quotes, look at this for example

    [Quran 9:5]And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.

    A lot of people on-line I see doing this, but they forget what else there is ............the verse goes on to say

    But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 9:6]And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
    Thats the important word though innit... IF.. what happens if they dont? Doesnt 9.5 then apply to them?
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    (Original post by ideas4life)
    Heres prove being homosexuals also means death penalty in Islam

    Happy now, hope you stop saying Islam is not against homosexuals
    Since when were the people of Lot homosexuals? That quote proves nothing and is just another example of you misrepresenting it.
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    You can easily manipulate quotes, look at this for example

    [Quran 9:5]And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.

    A lot of people on-line I see doing this, but they forget what else there is ............the verse goes on to say

    But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
    Sorry, but that's hardly an exapmle of a 'tolerant' Koranic verse. It states that the only reason 'polytheists' should be allowed to live is if they agree to convert to Islam. Whatever happened to live and let live?
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    You can easily manipulate quotes, look at this for example

    [Quran 9:5]And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.

    A lot of people on-line I see doing this, but they forget what else there is ............the verse goes on to say

    But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 9:6]And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
    You probably believe Zakir Naik's context about that verse.

    He gave the worlds biggest lie when it came to context of that verse.

    Context and meaning is:

    Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

    (So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

    (So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

    (then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

    (And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )﴿2:191﴾ Allah said here,

    (and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

    (and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

    (But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

    (I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

    Tafsir ibn Kathir
    http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/...b/9.20750.html

    And the meaning of the part: "and if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah"

    (And if anyone of the Mushrikin), whom you were commanded to fight and We allowed you their blood and property,'

    (seeks your protection), asked you for safe passage, then accept his request until he hears the Words of Allah, the Qur'an. Recite the Qur'an to him and mention a good part of the religion with which you establish Allah's proof against him,

    (and then escort him to where he can be secure) and safe, until he goes back to his land, his home, and area of safety,

    (that is because they are men who know not.) The Ayah says, `We legislated giving such people safe passage so that they may learn about the religion of Allah, so that Allah's call will spread among His servants. Ibn Abi Najih narrated that Mujahid said that this Ayah, "Refers to someone who comes to you to hear what you say and what was revealed to you (O Muhammad). Therefore, he is safe until he comes to you, hears Allah's Words and then proceeds to the safe area where he came from.'' The Messenger of Allah used to thereafter grant safe passage to those who came to him for guidance or to deliver a message. On the day of Hudaybiyyah, several emissaries from Quraysh came to him, such as `Urwah bin Mas`ud, Mikraz bin Hafs, Suhayl bin `Amr and several others. They came mediating between him and the Quraysh pagans. They witnessed the great respect the Muslims had for the Prophet , which astonished them, for they never before saw such respect for anyone, kings nor czars. They went back to their people and conveyed this news to them; this, among other reasons, was one reason that most of them accepted the guidance. When Musaylimah the Liar sent an emissary to the Messenger of Allah, he asked him, "Do you testify that Musaylimah is a messenger from Allah'' He said, "Yes.'' The Messenger of Allah said,

    (I would have cut off your head, if it was not that emissaries are not killed.) That man, Ibn An-Nawwahah, was later beheaded when `Abdullah bin Mas`ud was the governor of Al-Kufah. When it became known that he still testified that Musaylimah was a messenger from Allah, Ibn Mas`ud summoned him and said to him, "You are not delivering a message now!'' He commanded that Ibn An-Nawwahah be decapitated, may Allah curse him and deprive him of His mercy. In summary, those who come from a land at war with Muslims to the area of Islam, delivering a message, for business transactions, to negotiate a peace treaty, to pay the Jizyah, to offer an end to hostilities, and so forth, and request safe passage from Muslim leaders or their deputies, should be granted safe passage, as long as they remain in Muslim areas, until they go back to their land and sanctuary.
    Tafsir ibn Kathir
    http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/...b/9.20770.html
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    so basically your way or no way? :rolleyes:
    I said I dislike other religions, because IN MY OPINION their teachings are false. You may have misread my comment. I have no problem with other people believing in other religions. In case you don't realise, ALL devout religious people dislike other religions which are not their own (except Buddhists).
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Since when were the people of Lot homosexuals? That quote proves nothing and is just another example of you misrepresenting it.
    You love playing the semantics game dont you.

    In Islam people of lot were "homosexuals"
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    (Original post by ideas4life)
    I am leftist.

    But unfortunately, according to many of my fellow leftists, being against islamic teachings or criticising it isnt "ok"....it makes you islamaphobic.
    No, what makes you Islamophobic is your unhealthy obsession with critisizing Islam, to the exclusion of all other religions.

    Every single time you quote a hadith or Quran ayat, it is either taken out of context or completely misquoted.
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    (Original post by ideas4life)
    You love playing the semantics game dont you.

    In Islam people of lot were "homosexuals"
    Really? Does it state that unequivocally? Or does it once again say they practised sodomy? My version mentions nothing of "homosexuality", but talks about the act of sodomy, which is quite separate to homosexuality. Or are you going to argue all homosexuals, to be homosexuals, must practise sodomy?

    Moreover, given you can neither accurately represent my religious views, nor my views on homosexuality, you're not doing very well. You are, in fact, showing your prejudices quite clearly. I am neither Christian, nor a homophobe, and only a small amount of research would've proved that clearly to you. Given you are unable to even get those facts right, why should we trust what is clearly a highly biased view of Islam and not criticise it?
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    (Original post by NuckingFut)
    No, what makes you Islamophobic is your unhealthy obsession with critisizing Islam, to the exclusion of all other religions.

    Every single time you quote a hadith or Quran ayat, it is either taken out of context or completely misquoted.
    Every time i quote the Quran i always give the context. This time i did not.

    On purpose.

    You tell me, what were the context of violent teachings such as killing children?

    If you dont know context, it makes you look like an idiot for using that arguement, because i have found that when you look at the context of Quran verses it makes the verse appear WAYYY more violent than it seemed. E.g

    EXAMPLE:


    And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
    Qur'an 2:195
    Context according ot tafsir (used to promote suicide bombing)


    "A man from among the Ansar broke enemy (Byzantine) lines in Constantinople (Istanbul). Abu Ayyub Al-Ansari was with us then. So some people said, `He is throwing himself to destruction.'
    Abu Ayyub said, `We know this Ayah (2:195) better, for it was revealed about us, the Companions of Allah's Messenger who participated in Jihad with him and aided and supported him. When Islam became strong, we, the Ansar, met and said to each other, `Allah has honored us by being the Companions of His Prophet and in supporting him until Islam became victorious and its following increased. We had before ignored the needs of our families, estates and children. Warfare has ceased, so let us go back to our families and children and attend to them.' So this Ayah was revealed about us:
    (And spend in the cause of Allah and do not throw yourselves into destruction.) the destruction refers to staying with our families and estates and abandoning Jihad."
    Sunan: Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa'i, as quoted in Tafsir ibn Kathir below
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=229&Itemid=36

    An example of how context of Quran verse actually makes verse look million times more violent
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    Thats the important word though innit... IF.. what happens if they dont? Doesnt 9.5 then apply to them?
    Well the context behind it is, that they are at war with the Muslims, if you are in a war, you fight, it's saying when they surrender or do not wish to fight you give them safety.
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    (Original post by hughcapet)
    Sorry, but that's hardly an exapmle of a 'tolerant' Koranic verse. It states that the only reason 'polytheists' should be allowed to live is if they agree to convert to Islam. Whatever happened to live and let live?
    read the verse after:
    [Quran 9:6]And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Really? Does it state that unequivocally? Or does it once again say they practised sodomy? My version mentions nothing of "homosexuality", but talks about the act of sodomy, which is quite separate to homosexuality. Or are you going to argue all homosexuals, to be homosexuals, must practise sodomy?

    Moreover, given you can neither accurately represent my religious views, nor my views on homosexuality, you're not doing very well. You are, in fact, showing your prejudices quite clearly. I am neither Christian, nor a homophobe, and only a small amount of research would've proved that clearly to you. Given you are unable to even get those facts right, why should we trust what is clearly a highly biased view of Islam and not criticise it?
    By argueing with me, your making oyurself look like an idiot. I have already given you PROOF.

    If the people of lot were NOT homosexual why would they commit "sodomy"......i think your an illogical person.

    Also you make yourself look unusual because your comments suggest homosexuality=ok in Islam. But if homosexuals have sex they get killed= ok
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    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    read the verse after:
    [Quran 9:6]And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
    And i have already given you context of this verse. If they dont convert=death
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