The Student Room Group

What is the point in pure maths?

Scroll to see replies

Original post by TheJ0ker
Many parts of applied maths originated in pure maths. I don't know how much you know about calculus but I can't even begin to describe how useful it is in applied maths. The idea was developed through concepts in pure maths.


This, I was going to mention calculus, but you've saved me the typing :tongue:
Original post by Appeal to reason
This, I was going to mention calculus, but you've saved me the typing :tongue:


I wouldn't actually use the example of calculus as an example of an application of "pure" maths. For one thing it's extremely old, I think modern examples are more convincing and relevant. For another thing I don't think you can really call it "pure maths".

I don't think Newton had in his mind at all the abstract concept of a function (did anybody at all in Newton's times? I doubt it), but instead conceived of calculus as a matter of motion in physical space. Back in Newton's days, what we today call "pure maths" didn't exist. Mathematics was more or less entirely mathematical physics, the closest thing to a pure mathematician being someone like Fermat.

"Pure maths" in the way that it is usually meant today, didn't really start until around 1800. When it just exploded into life. Abel, Galois, Weierstrauss, Riemann, Dedekind, Cantor, Cauchy, etc. Guys who wouldn't really get mentioned in A-level or GCSE maths at all, which is from Newton's era.

Gauss deserves a special mention. He sort of wasn't a "modern" pure mathematician like those guys, he was sort of in-between. But he helped lay the foundations for entire fields like algebraic number theory and geometry.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 102
Why me? What have I done so I deserve to read such threads? :tongue:

I don't see why the A-level syllabuses have to be changed to fit the interests of, I can confidentially say, a minority of people.
At the end of the day, not everybody who does A-level Maths goes to study Maths degree at Uni; seems to be quite the opposite.

I would say that there are enough challenges at A-level Maths - my exam board offers introduction to Multi-variable Calculus, Differential Geometry and Group Theory.
My guess would be that this is a good way to make the students to think outside the box at A-levels.

The last thing I want to add is that, lets be honest, 50% of the people at Uni find Analysis from difficult through hard all the way down to impenetrable.
Are you really suggesting that people who will study Psychology at Uni have to bear with Analysis at A-levels?
Original post by Raiden10
I wouldn't actually use the example of calculus as an example of an application of "pure" maths. For one thing it's extremely old, I think modern examples are more convincing and relevant. For another thing I don't think you can really call it "pure maths".

I don't think Newton had in his mind at all the abstract concept of a function (did anybody at all in Newton's times? I doubt it), but instead conceived of calculus as a matter of motion in physical space. Back in Newton's days, what we today call "pure maths" didn't exist. Mathematics was more or less entirely mathematical physics, the closest thing to a pure mathematician being Fermat.

"Pure maths" in the way that it is usually meant today, didn't really start until around 1800. When it just exploded into life.


Yeah, I understand this now, I posted this without reading the whole thread, so didn't realise it wasn't really pure maths. (I didn't realise that the core syllabus at A level wasn't actually pure maths)
Reply 104
Original post by Appeal to reason
Yeah, I understand this now, I posted this without reading the whole thread, so didn't realise it wasn't really pure maths. (I didn't realise that the core syllabus at A level wasn't actually pure maths)


I am not at all sure that the pure/applied distinction is useful. It's just an old pedagogical term (I took an A-level called 'Applied Mathematics') that should be allowed to die.

Mathematics can be studied to different levels of depth, extent and rigour. If you study it on its own then you are studying mathematics. If you are using mathematics to model real world phenomena then you are doing Physics/Biology/Computer Science etc.
Such a fail troll, you define pure maths as having no real world applications, and then you ask whether pure maths has any real world applications...
Reply 106
Original post by Apeiron
I think that's probably true of most branches of maths.


Exactly right, and this is the problem when people start listing the applications of pure maths and inevitably discard the parts which are not readily applicable to anything concrete. This just shows that utilitarian thinking is somehow out of place when talking about maths.

Original post by Raiden10
Without knowing the details I could drop a few names: Random Matrices, Riemann Zeta Function, Quantum Mechanics.


I am not at all sure what you mean by this.
Original post by NuclearFusion
Such a fail troll, you define pure maths as having no real world applications, and then you ask whether pure maths has any real world applications...


No I didn't and I'm not a troll.
Original post by When you see it...
It has no practical application, why can't people who work (professionally I mean) in pure maths do something that actually benefits people.
Yes, I know that it helps to explain things like science which have practical application, but we don't need pure maths to help with that once the problem (or whatever it is) is found because people can work out the maths needed without worrying about the silly things like mathematical proof.
Just to clarify my stance, I think if something has real-world application, I no longer consider it to be 'pure maths'. So please don't say things like 'it is useful for solving problems in physics to do with black holes (or whatever)' because then it would no longer be pure maths.
Other than for 'fun', what is the point in pure maths?
EDIT:
Okay, to clarify further. I think 'pure maths' is when people try to prove things that, for all intents and purposes, are self-evidently true. It is impossible to prove something without making assumptions, so mathematical proof is no more valid than scientific proof just because it makes different assumptions. Also, when people work on problems with numbers or algebra (or whatever) that they can't clearly see an application for (an application being something that would benefit other people). Just because applications are often found later, that doesn't justify finding out the methods used earlier on, because those same methods could have been discovered when the real-life problem arose.


You strongly imply that you don't think that Maths has any real world applications and thus is pointless- well this will obviously be the case when you yourself define pure maths as having no real-world practical application.
Original post by NuclearFusion
You strongly imply that you don't think that Maths has any real world applications and thus is pointless- well this will obviously be the case when you yourself define pure maths as having no real-world practical application.


I was asking what the point of it is if it can't be applied to real-life.
Reply 110
Original post by When you see it...
I was asking what the point of it is if it can't be applied to real-life.


How do we know it can't be applied to 'real life'? There is no such thing as pure mathematics, there is only mathematics. A lot of it finds application in other areas, some of it doesn't -- yet. It's not generally predictable what branches may find application in the future.

Aside from that point, though, any branch of the subject is worth pursuing by those who have the particular liking/aptitude for it since throws further light on the whole subject and makes visible connections to other areas, currently applicable or not.
Reply 111
We should be doing Statistics.
Original post by Apeiron
I am not at all sure that the pure/applied distinction is useful. It's just an old pedagogical term (I took an A-level called 'Applied Mathematics') that should be allowed to die.

Mathematics can be studied to different levels of depth, extent and rigour. If you study it on its own then you are studying mathematics. If you are using mathematics to model real world phenomena then you are doing Physics/Biology/Computer Science etc.


Even if that were true, terminology, even bad terminology, tends to stick. For example the terminology "countable set". That is confusing for the uninitiated (i.e. freshers), and, I would argue, belies confusion not only for freshman mathematicians. But is it ever going to change in favour of another slightly more mealy-mouthed but less confusing term such as "denumerable"? No. A piece of terminology would have to be truly disastrous for that to happen.

In any case I don't think there's anything even potentially wrong that couldn't be fixed with a judicious use of the word "modern". You would then have "old/modern pure/applied maths" to describe what you are talking about. 4 different terms to use.

Perhaps you don't like the word "pure" but surely it is easier to add terminology than it is to take it away.

Furthermore I think it would be ahistorical to brush over the fact that Newton and his buddies thought of most of their mathematics in terms of moving particles and such. Very physical. Very applied, by the definition you mentioned above. In those times "pure maths" would have been considered as not very serious, and did not reach much depth compared to calculus, say. Sure pure maths uses intuition that must come from the physical world (thinking sheerly from a "formalist" perspective would be rather hard), but Newton never left the physical world - that's the difference.

"Serious pure maths" is a very modern thing (i.e. post-1800). And some of it is very applied. I see nothing wrong with the terms "pure" and "applied" maths as long as you know how to treat them.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by isp
We should be doing Statistics.


We wouldn't have Statistics without Linear Algebra and Calculus.
Maths = Pure Maths.

To be honest there is no such thing as 'applied maths', as soon as you strip out the element of proof which defines pure maths, you no longer have maths.

Think of pure maths as the toolset we use to solve problems.

Saying a particle at time t which has velocity t^2, travels with acceleration of 2t, only maks sense if you have pure maths.

Just because we state the differential of t^2 = 2t without showing it formally doesn't mean we have ignored our ourstanding of limits/analysis. We don't prove it rigourously because that would be tedious, but we still assume it's true, otherewise the above wouldn't make any sense.

Every peice of work Einstein performed that relied on maths, was pure. Newton was different because they were still using dodgy mathematical concepts. But as for modern day science, there is hardly any difference between theoretical physics and pure maths after you acknoldege the axioms of physics.

A-level maths =\= maths

Maths = Proof (by definition)


The sooner you grasp this the better.
(edited 12 years ago)
Wow, 26 negs. I really don't like people on the maths forum, most of your responses are hyperbolic BS. Anyone feel the resuming this debate (without pretending to misinterpret my OP :rolleyes:)?

Quick Reply

Latest