Discussing the "Women who get raped deserve it" argument
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Original post by aeterno
I assume you were trying to quote lula91 there 
Just FYI to edit your post 
Just FYI to edit your post My apologies
Original post by KJ_the_crazy_chick
How will a rape free society happen?
sadly it never will, that's my point. we need to take precautions to protect ourselves, because we can't trust other people not to rape/rob/murder etc...
Original post by Lumos
sadly it never will, that's my point. we need to take precautions to protect ourselves, because we can't trust other people not to rape/rob/murder etc...
It is true. Hopefully it can get better.
Original post by Tullia
My facepalm emoticon was regarding the statement you made about the underlying reason for rape occurring. If you understood that, then perhaps we wouldn't be diverging so much from a point.
Ta-ra though.
Ta-ra though.
Then use words. How hard is it to write a sentence smh
Original post by Lumos
sadly it never will, that's my point. we need to take precautions to protect ourselves, because we can't trust other people not to rape/rob/murder etc...
Unfortunate, but true.
I also think it's unfortunate that anyone who says this is automatically assumed to be condoning rape, blaming the victim, suggesting that the victim somehow deserved it etc.
Original post by Jackal The
In some cases, yes. But that doesn't apply for every single rape at all. The whole "rape is about power" thing was never based on any valid studies at all.
Seriously??? I was raped and my councellor told me this.
Original post by Tullia
I don't believe you're in a position to comment on using words and stringing sentences together. Look at the post you quoted and then your own post.
You're diverging though... would you care to rebuttal the point that someone else kindly made for me in response to what you implied about rape being entirely about control?
You're diverging though... would you care to rebuttal the point that someone else kindly made for me in response to what you implied about rape being entirely about control?
No, I don't think you deserve an answer from. If you were nice to me then I would have given you and explanation on my post. BTW, my writing is fine. Why should I bother with perfect sentences in a forum?
Yes, a man should be able to flash his cash without getting mugged. He doesn't deserve to be mugged. But it's still not particularly sensible to do that if you're walking around in an area famed for its muggings.
I don't really think that is what people say about rapists. Anyone would agree that the blame lies wholly with the rapist, or with the mugger, or with the perpetrator of whatever crime happens to have been committed. Rather, what people often say about rape instances (and mugging instances as well, for that matter) is that there are sensible precautions one can take to reduce the likelihood that they will become victims.
Look at this website for example: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeople/CrimeAndJustice/KeepingSafe/DG_10027726
Nobody's really going to suggest that, by creating this page, the government are insinuating that stealing someone's mobile phone is acceptable or understandable, or that if your phone gets stolen then it must be your fault.
We can't go about life with the attitude that "I should be able to do such and such, without anyone committing a crime towards me, so I will". It's a nice ideal, but we can't assume that everyone will respect it. The fact of the matter is, unfortunately, some people couldn't care less about abiding by the law. Now, knowing that such people exists, we can take this into account when deciding what is the most sensible way to go about out business.
Why would that be insulting to men in general? Surely it is only insulting to men who actually rape. (And I don't really mind insulting them to be honest).
I wouldn't be insulted by that train of thought, because I know it doesn't apply to me. I'm perfectly capable of not raping someone. But not everyone bothers to control themselves, and those people deserve to be insulted really.
Furthermore, In the same way that a man who mugged an obviously rich person would still be totally blamed for the mugging, the blame for a rape should not be shared by both victim and perpetrator because the victim was dressed provocatively. Society never says about the mugger, "Well, whilst what you did was wrong, he was flashing his money about and I can see how you'd be unable to resist the urge to rob him." But they do about rapists.
I don't really think that is what people say about rapists. Anyone would agree that the blame lies wholly with the rapist, or with the mugger, or with the perpetrator of whatever crime happens to have been committed. Rather, what people often say about rape instances (and mugging instances as well, for that matter) is that there are sensible precautions one can take to reduce the likelihood that they will become victims.
Look at this website for example: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeople/CrimeAndJustice/KeepingSafe/DG_10027726
Nobody's really going to suggest that, by creating this page, the government are insinuating that stealing someone's mobile phone is acceptable or understandable, or that if your phone gets stolen then it must be your fault.
We can't go about life with the attitude that "I should be able to do such and such, without anyone committing a crime towards me, so I will". It's a nice ideal, but we can't assume that everyone will respect it. The fact of the matter is, unfortunately, some people couldn't care less about abiding by the law. Now, knowing that such people exists, we can take this into account when deciding what is the most sensible way to go about out business.
Really, I've always stood by the point that this train of thought is quite insulting to men, actually. It's like saying that if you see a woman in a short skirt on her own, you just can't help but stick your penis in her, whether she wants you to or not. Makes men sound very barbaric and caveman-esque.
Why would that be insulting to men in general? Surely it is only insulting to men who actually rape. (And I don't really mind insulting them to be honest).
I wouldn't be insulted by that train of thought, because I know it doesn't apply to me. I'm perfectly capable of not raping someone. But not everyone bothers to control themselves, and those people deserve to be insulted really.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by xoxAngel_Kxox
A woman should be able to go out in the streets dressed in a miniskirt with her cleavage on full view after a night out WITHOUT being forced into having sex. There is never an excuse for rape. No means no, no matter what she's wearing, how she's acting. Even if you lead a man to believe you want sex, if you say NO, it means NO.. doesn't matter what may have happened in the lead up.
And I would like to be able to stroll down West Baltimore wearing a rolex and flashing my cash. However, the world is not a nice place and people take advantage of what they see, so I would expect to be robbed.
You have the "what were you wearing" argument all wrong. It's never an excuse, but putting responsibility somewhat on the victim. I'm not going to take a merry wander into the bronx with a friend whilst loudly proclaiming how much black youth in the area are a social burden. If I was to be beaten into a vegetated state for doing so, I would hope you would say "Well what the **** did you expect? That was retarded of you".
It's not a case of right & wrong, it's a case of being realistic, realising there are evil, immoral people out there and living your life accepting this fact and not being ignorant to it.
Original post by Tullia
Way to miss their point. The point was the control is the 'high', not having sex with someone with little clothes on. Clothes being taken off can be part of the control.
***
I agree with the reasonable precautions thing - just because a women is walking down a dark alleyway at night, regardless of what they are wearing, doesn't mean they are asking to be raped, but then if I did the same, I am not asking to have my wallet / phone stolen -> In both situations, we were not asking for it, or deserved it, but we could have taken precautions to prevent it. Same applies for not walking home with a friend / wear revealing clothing but then wear a coat over the top when travelling (like I would hide my laptop in my bag, and then use it out somewhere safe, but not reveal it while travelling alone).
I also think it is fair to raise the point that the people who do think rape is because a women was asking for it are helped by the women among you who falsely cry rape, when it is later proven they full well consented, and just didn't want their boyfriend to know they had cheated / etc. A guy decides to sleep with a girl, does he deserve have this life ruined, lose his job, get taken to prison until his trial and such; just because he wanted to have consensual sex.
***
Edit: Just where is the opinion that it women ask for it if they wear slutty clothing or that things like that make a women to blame/ etc. Maybe it is the company I keep, but I have never thought that, nor have I heard anyone else voice or have that opinion, although I have heard the campaign against that view.
(edited 12 years ago)
Find me the case where people have said "Can't blame you lad, she had her tits on display, so fair play you raped the lass"...That's just a bull**** feminist myth.
Barristers in rape defence cases have to be cruel like that, sadly, because there are so many women who cry wolf over rape. It's pretty horrible when the women is a genuine victim but if there were less false claims, then I'm sure it wouldn't be so common.
The whole rape argument has been *******ised into some warped feminist view that men get a "get out of jail" card for saying "oh well, she was dressed like a slut, so hey ho, couldn't resist" when in fact no one sees that as an excuse and both genders see that attitude as equally revolting. To even promote the existence of such a view is frankly sexist.
Barristers in rape defence cases have to be cruel like that, sadly, because there are so many women who cry wolf over rape. It's pretty horrible when the women is a genuine victim but if there were less false claims, then I'm sure it wouldn't be so common.
The whole rape argument has been *******ised into some warped feminist view that men get a "get out of jail" card for saying "oh well, she was dressed like a slut, so hey ho, couldn't resist" when in fact no one sees that as an excuse and both genders see that attitude as equally revolting. To even promote the existence of such a view is frankly sexist.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Beebumble
But that's not true....
In reality it's nothing like that. What a woman has worn is never an excuse for rape. That is a bull**** myth. There is a large amount of responsibility to not walk home with your tits out drunk off your face, but no one ever says "well she wore a miniskirt so she deserved to be raped!" We live in the UK, not Iran.
If you put meat in front of a dog, he will lunge for it, yes?
So if you put a woman on display in front of a man, he too will have the urge to lunge for here, no?
Yes, it is the duty of men to restrain themselves and suppress their natural inclinations, after all that is what separates us from animals.
But with that also comes a duty and responsibility to women. They make it very hard for men to restrain their strong natural urges by flaunting their beauty and showing off their bodies and acting in a seductive way. How can men resist this? I challenge any man to do so, it is near impossible.
So while men should restrain themselves, avert their eyes and suppress their desires, women should also make it easier for men by covering up a little and not being provocative.
Isn't this logical? The blame has to be put on both sexes, not just men, not just women, both have equal responsibility do they not?
So if you put a woman on display in front of a man, he too will have the urge to lunge for here, no?
Yes, it is the duty of men to restrain themselves and suppress their natural inclinations, after all that is what separates us from animals.
But with that also comes a duty and responsibility to women. They make it very hard for men to restrain their strong natural urges by flaunting their beauty and showing off their bodies and acting in a seductive way. How can men resist this? I challenge any man to do so, it is near impossible.
So while men should restrain themselves, avert their eyes and suppress their desires, women should also make it easier for men by covering up a little and not being provocative.
Isn't this logical? The blame has to be put on both sexes, not just men, not just women, both have equal responsibility do they not?
There is absolutely nothing to discuss.
Many women get raped no matter what they are wearing; it just so happens that SOMETIMES they were wearing something revealing. I think we are drifting from the issue and just focusing on those who wear revealing clothes.
For most rapists it is a power thing, rather than a sexual, and so what a woman is wearing actually makes no difference to them. They often plan to rape someone... They don't see someone in revealing clothes and just fail to control themselves. After all, we are humans with self control.
Of course no woman deserves to be raped, and no matter what she was wearing it doesn't make it ok.
For most rapists it is a power thing, rather than a sexual, and so what a woman is wearing actually makes no difference to them. They often plan to rape someone... They don't see someone in revealing clothes and just fail to control themselves. After all, we are humans with self control.
Of course no woman deserves to be raped, and no matter what she was wearing it doesn't make it ok.
I honestly cannot believe some people on this site...it's just...i dont even know what to say.
Women can and DO take precautions the problem is that rapists are evil vile disgusting foul creatures who ignore those precautions.
A woman can raped purely by walking alone...in broad daylight...completely covered.
I live in a dodgy area, i have two choices on which way to walk home, both are dodgy. By walking home from college in broad daylight and choosing the "least dodgy way" thats taking precautions isnt it? There's still a risk of rape/robbery/assault purely because some ****er cant be ****ed to keep his disgusting ****ing urges at bay.
Rape is about being in a wrong place at the wrong time not what your wearing, not how your walking, not if you've got enough confidence to show off our well deserved body.
Taking precautions is not 100% perfect. unless you want us to walk around with a 7ft 10tonne body guard 24/7 there's no way to prevent rape and it can never NEVER even be suggested to a rape victim that "she should have taken more precautions" thats just rubbing salt in the wound and making her feel like its her fault even if thats not what you intended.
Women can and DO take precautions the problem is that rapists are evil vile disgusting foul creatures who ignore those precautions.
A woman can raped purely by walking alone...in broad daylight...completely covered.
I live in a dodgy area, i have two choices on which way to walk home, both are dodgy. By walking home from college in broad daylight and choosing the "least dodgy way" thats taking precautions isnt it? There's still a risk of rape/robbery/assault purely because some ****er cant be ****ed to keep his disgusting ****ing urges at bay.
Rape is about being in a wrong place at the wrong time not what your wearing, not how your walking, not if you've got enough confidence to show off our well deserved body.
Taking precautions is not 100% perfect. unless you want us to walk around with a 7ft 10tonne body guard 24/7 there's no way to prevent rape and it can never NEVER even be suggested to a rape victim that "she should have taken more precautions" thats just rubbing salt in the wound and making her feel like its her fault even if thats not what you intended.
No part of my post says people deserve to be raped or mugged.
The blame is not shared. This is where women are twisting things. They get raped and are told to take precautions next time. they get all emotional and think they are being blamed. Being told to be more careful next time =/= being blamed. If you flash your valuables and get mugged what are the police gonna say? Hide your valuables next time. Doesn't mean they are blaming you for the mugging. They are just giving you common sense advice to reduce the risk in future.
Rape is a serious allegation so the detectives need the full picture of the victim's "sexual personality" After all the defence saying that she gave signals she was ok with the sex and the man didn't believe otherwise is a valid excuse. I am going to be logical here and say that the vast majority of rapes aren't the popular image of a guy hiding in a bush to jump out on random women. Most rapes are done by men they knew going a bit too far etc. So the defence needs to establish if the man knew he was going too far.
Some men really can't. They are called rapists. So the train of thought is true for some. That is why you should be realistic and take the precautions.
The blame is not shared. This is where women are twisting things. They get raped and are told to take precautions next time. they get all emotional and think they are being blamed. Being told to be more careful next time =/= being blamed. If you flash your valuables and get mugged what are the police gonna say? Hide your valuables next time. Doesn't mean they are blaming you for the mugging. They are just giving you common sense advice to reduce the risk in future.
Rape is a serious allegation so the detectives need the full picture of the victim's "sexual personality" After all the defence saying that she gave signals she was ok with the sex and the man didn't believe otherwise is a valid excuse. I am going to be logical here and say that the vast majority of rapes aren't the popular image of a guy hiding in a bush to jump out on random women. Most rapes are done by men they knew going a bit too far etc. So the defence needs to establish if the man knew he was going too far.
Some men really can't. They are called rapists. So the train of thought is true for some. That is why you should be realistic and take the precautions.
I love how the standard for men is to be promiscuous as they like.
Original post by Care-Free
I honestly cannot believe some people on this site...it's just...i dont even know what to say.
Women can and DO take precautions the problem is that rapists are evil vile disgusting foul creatures who ignore those precautions.
A woman can raped purely by walking alone...in broad daylight...completely covered.
I live in a dodgy area, i have two choices on which way to walk home, both are dodgy. By walking home from college in broad daylight and choosing the "least dodgy way" thats taking precautions isnt it? There's still a risk of rape/robbery/assault purely because some ****er cant be ****ed to keep his disgusting ****ing urges at bay.
Rape is about being in a wrong place at the wrong time not what your wearing, not how your walking, not if you've got enough confidence to show off our well deserved body.
Taking precautions is not 100% perfect. unless you want us to walk around with a 7ft 10tonne body guard 24/7 there's no way to prevent rape and it can never NEVER even be suggested to a rape victim that "she should have taken more precautions" thats just rubbing salt in the wound and making her feel like its her fault even if thats not what you intended.
Women can and DO take precautions the problem is that rapists are evil vile disgusting foul creatures who ignore those precautions.
A woman can raped purely by walking alone...in broad daylight...completely covered.
I live in a dodgy area, i have two choices on which way to walk home, both are dodgy. By walking home from college in broad daylight and choosing the "least dodgy way" thats taking precautions isnt it? There's still a risk of rape/robbery/assault purely because some ****er cant be ****ed to keep his disgusting ****ing urges at bay.
Rape is about being in a wrong place at the wrong time not what your wearing, not how your walking, not if you've got enough confidence to show off our well deserved body.
Taking precautions is not 100% perfect. unless you want us to walk around with a 7ft 10tonne body guard 24/7 there's no way to prevent rape and it can never NEVER even be suggested to a rape victim that "she should have taken more precautions" thats just rubbing salt in the wound and making her feel like its her fault even if thats not what you intended.
I agree with this completely.
There has not, ever, been a recorded incidence of rape at a nudist beach, where the women are stark naked. In Karachi, where the women dress conservatively, marital rape affects the majority of women. Rape happens everywhere, and short of carrying a gun, a woman cannot prevent rape.
The idea that a rapist bent on getting some action will stop at clothing, or how a woman looks, is stupid and unfounded. Ugly women get raped, elderly women get raped, clothed women get raped, women get raped in public. A rapist is going to rape. He is not going to be stopped by a bit of clothing or a woman's looks.
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