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Do muslims over-react to burning of a book

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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    No and you know full well im not.

    Im saying people will riot and destroy for reasons for less reasonable than feeling that the foundation of there existence is being insulted.
    well, it is an odd example to use - typical football hooligans riot because well A they arnt the smartest generally B they have a lot of built up and latent anger and resentment in their outside lives and C they attach themselves to a 'tribe' where they are easily infuenced by higher ranking members of 'firms' other hooligan peers.

    And the fact that they are also often criminally minded.
    Yes riots occur elswhwre, but they dont have good reasons to , do they? And in the case of football holliganism - beleive it or not less deaths occur than afgans riots have caused.

    Im sure this isnt the impression you want to give of muslims
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    muslims are allowed to burn the quran in some conditions, if you find a page of the quran lying on the floor, you dont just put it in the bin as its considered disrespectful but you burn the page. this includes all sorts of arabic texts form the quran or damaged qurans.

    what i find offensive is what reason you are burning the quran. what happened in Afghanistan i believe was to mock the quran and burn it as a sgin of negativity towards islam by non muslims, i believe this is what causes an issue to muslims and makes them retaliate in this way.
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    As I said, it depends on the value one ascribes to the Quran and its texts. I don't see why this is necessarily in contravention of what you have said above.
    because you orignally stated -
    "That's because your life is not dedicated to a material object. Numerous cultural/religious/social groups across the world do have material objects that are sacred to them, and will resort to violence if they are desecrated in such a crass manner."

    That isnt the case in islam becuase mohammed specifically forbade any treatemnt of material objects as 'sacred' But you clealry didnt know that.

    You prbably should also know that mohammed never used a quran nor did he have one written or given to any muslims - hence why he didnt mention it should be treated as such, the qurans were first wirtten long after his death.
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    (Original post by mohsanrabbani)
    muslims are allowed to burn the quran in some conditions, if you find a page of the quran lying on the floor, you dont just put it in the bin as its considered disrespectful but you burn the page. this includes all sorts of arabic texts form the quran or damaged qurans.

    what i find offensive is what reason you are burning the quran. what happened in Afghanistan i believe was to mock the quran and burn it as a sgin of negativity towards islam by non muslims, i believe this is what causes an issue to muslims and makes them retaliate in this way.
    Well if this is the case, then clearly there is no case to answer and the muslims are over-reacting, becuase the americans burnt them by accident.
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    So its still descirating other religious symbols. Thats means coz Saudi is backward it can get away with doing all that, but no matter what happens a Koran shouldnt be burnt?

    Bit hypocritical dont u think :rolleyes:
    of course it's not a good thing
    im not saying it is
    but yeah some are hypocrites
    As a Muslim, I dont think I am
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    Burning the quran is the proper way of disposal however, its not the 'Burning' that people are getting so angry about.Read this article by Bob Duggan- http://bigthink.com/ideas/23961
    The analogy that comes to mind most immediately for me when I think of Jones’ book burning is to Hitler’s book burnings, which were a prelude to his ignition of first all Europe and, later, the whole world. Hitler burned the books of Jewish intellectuals as a proxy for destroying the authors and their culture. Jones aims at extinction of Islam through the Quran. Burn enough of their books, he reasons, and you’ll leave the religion itself in ashes.

    i totally agree with him its Jones's intention that made people react but i still agree that people went to far because its impossible for him to get rid of the quran even if he burnt every single one on earth, theres a reason why god encourages us to memorized every single page of the book.
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    What i dont understand is that if this had been the Bible there wouldn't have been as much protests despite the fact that Christians believe the Bible as being the 'Words of God'.

    All very one sided i guess :/

    P.S. Why am i getting negged for saying that equality should be maintained in the decisions and actions of others. I'm saying Christians get ignored when there is found to be cases of unfairness.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    because you orignally stated -
    "That's because your life is not dedicated to a material object. Numerous cultural/religious/social groups across the world do have material objects that are sacred to them, and will resort to violence if they are desecrated in such a crass manner."

    That isnt the case in islam becuase mohammed specifically forbade any treatemnt of material objects as 'sacred' But you clealry didnt know that.

    You prbably should also know that mohammed never used a quran nor did he have one written or given to any muslims - hence why he didnt mention it should be treated as such, the qurans were first wirtten long after his death.
    The text is in a material form within the Quran, which puts it in a grey area.
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    What i dont understand why there is this opinion that the Korans were burnt on purpose. I knw the americans might be a bit dumb but they are not that dumb. Do you really think they want to burn them on purpose and endanger their troops there. Everybody knows how sensitive this issue can be to some from previous experiences. I think people should have protested in some other manner rather than all out violent rioting.
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    From what I've seen, there seems to be a lot of folk religion bound up with practices around the Koran, which seem to be borrowed from Old Testament Scribe practices around the Torah and Talmud, in how the scrolls were handled.

    From what I gather as well - the Korans could have been gathered up with bedding and other personal effects where standing procedure could be to burn them - as maybe the owner had died. As burial or submerging the books was impossible - bung it in the incinerator along with other clinical waste.

    The squaddies would have handled a Gideon Bible or similar in exactly the same way.

    It was done in good faith - dealing with waste to avoid the transmission of anything nasty.
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    Anything more than "oh, well that's a bit of a waste of paper" is an overreaction the burning of a book.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    clearly, but 'gang culture' of respect and gang retribution is a throw back to primitive tribal patterns of our early ancestors. I would like to think the human race ( all of us) have evolved beyond that stage a few tens of thousand years ago.
    Religious extremists haven't.
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    Only something as unbelievably stupid as religion could make a man kill someone for burning paper, or drawing a picture, for that matter.

    Yes, muslims do over-react, to a lot of things. They're happy to exercise their right to free speech, but don't like it when others exercise the same right.

    Burning the Qu-ran and drawing pictures of the prophet day and night baby!
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    Well, According to Islam, The holiest place on earth is Saudi Arabia, How come they didn't react. I think the Afghan wasn't rioting over the Qu'ran. It was all drama because of the Taliban.
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    (Original post by Newky)
    Only something as unbelievably stupid as religion could make a man kill someone for burning paper, or drawing a picture, for that matter.

    Yes, muslims do over-react, to a lot of things. They're happy to exercise their right to free speech, but don't like it when others exercise the same right.

    Burning the Qu-ran and drawing pictures of the prophet day and night baby!
    Totally agree with you. Freedom of speech is a two way street. If muslims have the right to protest if they are offended, then whites also have the same right according to law. Its just political correctness has made it into a one way street.

    (Speaking as an Asian )
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Firstly thanks for confirming tha it happend- because many of your fellow muslims didnt even know that occurred.

    secondly what you wrote was not stricktly accurate - in the early days of the quran there were differring versions, not "error filled ones". The caliph in charge decided on the one he liked best and for all we know, added the abrogations too, then had all others destroyed. The final version wasnt the complete version Zayd had orignally cobbled together - it is cleary noted from record he was against uthmans action. So the version the muslims are getting so crazed over today is only uthmans personally annotated copy anyway.
    That is in fact factually incorrect. I really don't know where in the world you got that from. This is actually the correct context:
    When Uthmaan came to power, Islam had spread to Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Persia, Russia, China, Turkey, India and across North Africa. So, the new Muslims in these lands tried to memorize and learn the Qur'an. However, a sahaba called Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman had noticed that these new Muslims were mixing the 7 dialects (ways of reading the Qur'an) and so this caused complete confusion and lead to some incomplete and error-filled copies of the Qur'an. However, Hudhayfah reported back to Uthman and so Uthmaan had called all the major Sahabas into a meeting in which they discussed the issue. Uthmaan did not create a personally annotated copy. Infact, he had no part in actually creating the copies. He asked Hafsah to bring the original Qur'an to him and then delegated a council of 4 which was lead by Zayd ibn Thabit, to make an official copy of the original Qur'an. In total, 7 copies were made, and were sent to Makkah, Syria, Basrah, Kufah, Yemen and Bahrain along with an official reciter to each, just to clear up any future mistakes. All other copies were destroyed so errors could not be passed on. So in reality, what you said is completely wrong.

    (Original post by Shabalala)
    Not denying it's a minority but no other religion has a minority as large as islam or anywhere near as extreme and violent.

    Oh and Muslims fundemental beliefs are wrong if they had their way gays would be getting hanged, women would have no rights they could be stoned for getting raped or killed by their husbands in revenge as honour killings, music would be banned etc.....so yes fundemental islam is wrong and it's not something I would want us to EVER accept in this western world.

    Christianity and every other religion are all as false as Islam but they have learnt to adapt to modern civillization and culture if they were to follow the bible to the letter the west would be a far worse of place.
    To say that homosexuals would be hanged is a huge exaggeration. I'm not too informed about the situation I'll admit, however, what I do understand from it is that, the acts of homosexuality is punishable by death penalty but not homosexuality itself. In fact, if someone is homosexual and represses this feeling solely because their Lord commanded it, that is considered as a Greater Jihad and in theory will be rewarded accordingly. Women DEFINITELY DO have rights. Just because the Muslim women cover themselves, it doesn't mean they're forced into it. Every Muslim female I know covers themselves because they want to, not because they feel they have no choice. The only Muslim women you see are those on the news, who have a cliche sob story about how they were forced to wear the headscarf , beaten because they didn't and so forth. Frankly, that's utter rubbish, in fact, for all we know it could be completely staged just to portray a bad image of Muslims. Honour killings is an anomaly. Music? LOL Please explain to me how music is beneficial to us?

    Fair enough, you have your own views so you can think whatever you want about Islam. However, I think if you'd take the time to read all the positives that it has to offer, you'd be suprised to say the least.
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    (Original post by NuckingFut)
    No. The high esteem we hold the Quran in is something a non muslim could never understand, no matter how "silly" it may seem to you. It may seem like "just a book" to you, but to us it is much, much more.
    im afraid you don't understand how quotations work

    it is just a book
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    (Original post by HeavyTeddy)
    That is in fact factually incorrect. I really don't know where in the world you got that from. This is actually the correct context:
    When Uthmaan came to power, Islam had spread to Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Persia, Russia, China, Turkey, India and across North Africa. So, the new Muslims in these lands tried to memorize and learn the Qur'an. However, a sahaba called Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman had noticed that these new Muslims were mixing the 7 dialects (ways of reading the Qur'an) and so this caused complete confusion and lead to some incomplete and error-filled copies of the Qur'an. However, Hudhayfah reported back to Uthman and so Uthmaan had called all the major Sahabas into a meeting in which they discussed the issue. Uthmaan did not create a personally annotated copy. Infact, he had no part in actually creating the copies. He asked Hafsah to bring the original Qur'an to him and then delegated a council of 4 which was lead by Zayd ibn Thabit, to make an official copy of the original Qur'an. In total, 7 copies were made, and were sent to Makkah, Syria, Basrah, Kufah, Yemen and Bahrain along with an official reciter to each, just to clear up any future mistakes. All other copies were destroyed so errors could not be passed on. So in reality, what you said is completely wrong.

    .
    No im afraid , in reality - you are just quoting the position of the supporters and subsequent follwers of Uthmaan. The changes werent simply made to correct 'dialects '. There were various versions of the quran compiled by numerous other follwers of mohammed and their own clans, some with different orders of verses, some with surahs not included in current quran, others without surahs that are currently in the quran. Also questionable is the concept of abrogation , and that at some stage the current version of the quran has been amended from the original narrations of mohammed, which must have been done by someone for a particualr reason.

    There are various muslims that dont beleive any of your explanation and infer different motives - ie to alter the quran after it was originally written from the Hafsah codex - and then order for the orignal hafsah codex that abu bakr used, to be destroyed, as well as the other verisons of the quran. Why would uthmaan order the orignal and oldest existing quran held by moahmmeds wife to be destroyed, if not to eradicate evidence of changes made. The Shias point out as you know that the Uthmaan quran has a couple of surahs ommitted.
    Equally there are independant historians that have shown various greek, roman, arameic etc historical record of the same period to either contradict or differntly describe islamic narratives, patricia crone for example.
    So all the evidence points to likelihood that during the early tumultous years of islam which saw various regional conflicts and then later battles over the right to caliphate, the victors altered quranic and made the efforts to destroy what had been written before - and then later the freedom of abrogation made this action simplar. Then each caliphate produced their own new hadeeth for theier subjects of the time to follow.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Obviously this is now topical given the protests in afganistan over the US armies accidental burning of qurans (where incidentally people are being killed and not all by the afgan police but as a result of protesting it seems) but this has occurred in afganistan before notebly from the floridian pastors campaign in the USA to burn a quran in protest over islamic fundamentalism.

    The question came up in another thread which was - is protest of this sort justified and if so why?
    The points that can be made are that qurans have been burnt by muslims before for various reasons without such a reaction.
    And perhaps more importantly the first caliphs of Islam prdered the burning of hundreds of the first versions of the quran - yet these men are revered by muslims who follow their teachings.

    Can you explain the logic of the reactions going on in afganistan right now?
    You've made a mistake there:

    The first caliph did not order the burning of the first version of the quran. It was actually the versions of the quran that had been translated into various other languages. He thought that if it was translated into other languages,then it would, change the whole meaning and the context of the words of God (what's written in the quran).
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    [QUOTE=Shabalala;36510387.

    Oh and Muslims fundemental beliefs are wrong if they had their way gays would be getting hanged, women would have no rights they could be stoned for getting raped or killed by their husbands in revenge as honour killings, music would be banned etc.....so yes fundemental islam is wrong and it's not something I would want us to EVER accept in this western world.

    .[/QUOTE]

    This quote here shows you know nothing about Islam in all fairness.

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