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Ethnocentrism, Racism & critical theory

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    (Original post by screenager2004)
    They're just defined socially based on historical conceptions of geography. It's a very well known and accepted idea by historians, anthropologists, social scientists and biologists for about the last 50 years. There is nothing biologically 'real' about race, it only exists as far as human collective agreement.
    Obviously the races have a geographic territory of origin, and there are some transitory races, but using genetics a scientist can easily determine which smaple is north east asian, which one is european and which one is sub saharan african. They can also, but with less accuracy tell which ethnicity a person is from. The definitions may be imperfect but they still serve a useful purpose.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    Obviously the races have a geographic territory of origin, and there are some transitory races, but using genetics a scientist can easily determine which smaple is north east asian, which one is european and which one is sub saharan african. They can also, but with less accuracy tell which ethnicity a person is from. The definitions may be imperfect but they still serve a useful purpose.
    But those aren't really races in the sense we're talking about. Sure, a scientists can look at a skeleton from 500 years ago and tell us where he lived, just like a geologist can do with rocks. Those are just general populations though. I think we're talking about a different kind of understanding of race, ie: "don't rent out the flat to that black person, they tend to get involved in crime." The danger with race is that people start assigning behaviors to largely made up groups of people based on trivial genetic traits, and then almost act as if the persons behavior was inevitably linked to their "race". You must have heard a true racist speak at one point or another, about how "black people just can't get enough drugs" or "Arabs are a hot-headed people by nature". Some horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of race, because it leads to people seeing others as different kinds of creatures. That's why social scientists are really careful about this idea, and they should be too.
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    (Original post by Post)
    But those aren't really races in the sense we're talking about. Sure, a scientists can look at a skeleton from 500 years ago and tell us where he lived, just like a geologist can do with rocks. Those are just general populations though. I think we're talking about a different kind of understanding of race, ie: "don't rent out the flat to that black person, they tend to get involved in crime." The danger with race is that people start assigning behaviors to largely made up groups of people based on trivial genetic traits, and then almost act as if the persons behavior was inevitably linked to their "race". You must have heard a true racist speak at one point or another, about how "black people just can't get enough drugs" or "Arabs are a hot-headed people by nature". Some horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of race, because it leads to people seeing others as different kinds of creatures. That's why social scientists are really careful about this idea, and they should be too.
    That's called racial profiling, and is quite a resonable and sensible thing to do in some instances. Black people DO get involved in crime more. Thats not some sensational statement, it's a fact the pretty much everyone(blacks included) apart form thes most die-hard liberals accept. So whilst the definition of race may not be perfect and uniform, what we today accept as race serves a useful purpose.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    That's called racial profiling, and is quite a resonable and sensible thing to do in some instances. Black people DO get involved in crime more. Thats not some sensational statement, it's a fact the pretty much everyone(blacks included) apart form thes most die-hard liberals accept. So whilst the definition of race may not be perfect and uniform, what we today accept as race serves a useful purpose.
    Exactly, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're black does it? It's to do with the income, their employment, geography, upbringing etc, etc. Nothing to do with these insignificant traits like the shape of your nose or shade of your skin. So yes, blacks do get involved in crime more in some areas, but it's more accurate to say that those with lower incomes, living in these areas, with this level of education, blah blah blah, get involved in crime more. Why make a correlation with skin color when it's so trivial? It's like looking at shoe size or eye color. It's of no use to a social scientist, that's for sure, social scientists have to be more accurate than that. Instead of saying those guys with beards and brown skin, they'll refer to the wave of immigrants who arrived in the 60's mainly from Pakistan.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    That's called racial profiling, and is quite a resonable and sensible thing to do in some instances. Black people DO get involved in crime more. Thats not some sensational statement, it's a fact the pretty much everyone(blacks included) apart form thes most die-hard liberals accept. So whilst the definition of race may not be perfect and uniform, what we today accept as race serves a useful purpose.
    People in unpropitious socioeconomic circumstances get involved in crime more, irrespective of their ethnicities.
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    (Original post by Post)
    Exactly, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're black does it? It's to do with the income, their employment, geography, upbringing etc, etc. Nothing to do with these insignificant traits like the shape of your nose or shade of your skin. So yes, blacks do get involved in crime more in some areas, but it's more accurate to say that those with lower incomes, living in these areas, with this level of education, blah blah blah, get involved in crime more. Why make a correlation with skin color when it's so trivial? It's like looking at shoe size or eye color. It's of no use to a social scientist, that's for sure, social scientists have to be more accurate than that. Instead of saying those guys with beards and brown skin, they'll refer to the wave of immigrants who arrived in the 60's mainly from Pakistan.
    Humans and Chimpanzees share 98-99% of our DNA but that 1% makes a massive difference that 1% is hardly trvial. There are differences between races or 'populations' also. There are a myriad of factors which differentiate the races, differing levels of aggresion due to hormone levels, and different brain structures exaplain why some races/populations tend to get involved in crime more than others. I've never come accross anyone ever who has discriminated on the basis of skin colour alone, although I'm sure one or two may exist somewhere, almost all the time it's due to race rather than solely skin colour.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    Humans and Chimpanzees share 98-99% of our DNA but that 1% makes a massive difference that 1% is hardly trvial. There are differences between races or 'populations' also. There are a myriad of factors which differentiate the races, differing levels of aggresion due to hormone levels, and different brain structures exaplain why some races/populations tend to get involved in crime more than others. I've never come accross anyone ever who has discriminated on the basis of skin colour alone, although I'm sure one or two may exist somewhere, almost all the time it's due to race rather than solely skin colour.
    No.

    "The analysis shows that social class, ethnic identity and participation in religious observance were not associated with greater or less likelihood of young people following offending or drug-use pathways, once other factors were taken into account." (Page 25. Also read page 20-24)

    The concept of 'race' when seeking to understand genetic causality is meaningless.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    Humans and Chimpanzees share 98-99% of our DNA but that 1% makes a massive difference that 1% is hardly trvial. There are differences between races or 'populations' also. There are a myriad of factors which differentiate the races, differing levels of aggresion due to hormone levels, and different brain structures exaplain why some races/populations tend to get involved in crime more than others. I've never come accross anyone ever who has discriminated on the basis of skin colour alone, although I'm sure one or two may exist somewhere, almost all the time it's due to race rather than solely skin colour.
    Wow, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to back up some of these claims with research. Certain groups of people having a predisposition to crime!? Don't you see that you're now falling into the racist trap? Can you imagine yourself actually facing a group of people, who you identify as a solid race and saying this stuff?
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    (Original post by Post)
    Wow, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to back up some of these claims with research. Certain groups of people having a predisposition to crime!? Don't you see that you're now falling into the racist trap? Can you imagine yourself actually facing a group of people, who you identify as a solid race and saying this stuff?
    what on earth is 'the racist trap'?

    Yes I have faced people of other races and said this stuff, why wouldn't I?, your'e not suggesting they would act violently would you :rolleyes:. Seriously, though it's mainstream opinion regardless of race, you make it appear as if this stuff is belived by only a very small group of hateful people.
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    (Original post by Thatcuber)
    what on earth is 'the racist trap'?

    Yes I have faced people of other races and said this stuff, why wouldn't I?, your'e not suggesting they would act violently would you :rolleyes:. Seriously, though it's mainstream opinion regardless of race, you make it appear as if this stuff is belived by only a very small group of hateful people.
    No, lol, I wouldn't expect them to act violently, but I would expect them to give you a huge list of other factors that contributed to making them the people they are rather than a small group of genetic traits. They just wouldn't believe you I think.

    What I meant by the racist trap was that once you accept that groups can have a larger likelihood to participate in things like crime because of their skin color or other physical characteristics, then you start explaining it in those terms, and eventually you start seeing it in those terms too. For example, a lot of drugs are made in Mexico, and sure, if you had a Mexican skeleton, you can probably figure out where they lived most of their lives. But do Mexican people biologically have a predisposition to getting involved in crime? No, it's to do with the economy, it's proximity to the USA, the kind of money they can make etc. Just because there might be a correlation between some physical traits and the activities they take part in, doesn't mean it's a causation, and therefor it's a bad idea to offer race as an explanation for very much imo.

    Also, yeah, I think you're right, most people think this way, and I don't think it's a very healthy thing. Within the scientific community, it has been clear for a very long time, that race is pretty much a useless category. Hopefully racism will be erased as well.
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    (Original post by screenager2004)
    They're just defined socially based on historical conceptions of geography. It's a very well known and accepted idea by historians, anthropologists, social scientists and biologists for about the last 50 years. There is nothing biologically 'real' about race, it only exists as far as human collective agreement.


    you mean dna? i mean i understand in essence the concept of 'different than' and race just happen to be the name for this difference in colour/features/place of origin.. ?

    i think before in history people just say 'i am man from X village', no? Or maybe they dont even have name for village yet.. so 'i am man who live in place across river' or something like that..?

    When did people start give names and really write 'about a race' do u know? is to do with imperialism? or even before?



    (Original post by Post)

    What I meant by the racist trap was that once you accept that groups can have a larger likelihood to participate in things like crime because of their skin color or other physical characteristics, then you start explaining it in those terms, and eventually you start seeing it in those terms too. For example, a lot of drugs are made in Mexico, and sure, if you had a Mexican skeleton, you can probably figure out where they lived most of their lives. But do Mexican people biologically have a predisposition to getting involved in crime? No, it's to do with the economy, it's proximity to the USA, the kind of money they can make etc. Just because there might be a correlation between some physical traits and the activities they take part in, doesn't mean it's a causation, and therefor it's a bad idea to offer race as an explanation for very much imo.

    Also, yeah, I think you're right, most people think this way, and I don't think it's a very healthy thing. Within the scientific community, it has been clear for a very long time, that race is pretty much a useless category. Hopefully racism will be erased as well.
    so basically you are talking about nurture over nature.. and how circumstance shapes people.. do you think the same about mental health?

    What is your view about old wife tale or some kind of thing like.. hmm for example my grandpa has negative views about Jews and I read in a forum that this person his grandma has negative view about muslim.. so this is also semi related to this topic I think

    And how to decide in what terms to explain anything? because this now touch on something like um.. Foucault or Deleuze about labelling things. If I'm not mistaken they write about sexuality and heteronormativity

    I think most people attribute race as cause when it is actually 'culture of' doing something.. so belonging in group of people who do whatever kind of behaviour..


    (Original post by Post)
    Exactly, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're black does it? It's to do with the income, their employment, geography, upbringing etc, etc. Nothing to do with these insignificant traits like the shape of your nose or shade of your skin. So yes, blacks do get involved in crime more in some areas, but it's more accurate to say that those with lower incomes, living in these areas, with this level of education, blah blah blah, get involved in crime more. Why make a correlation with skin color when it's so trivial? It's like looking at shoe size or eye color. It's of no use to a social scientist, that's for sure, social scientists have to be more accurate than that. Instead of saying those guys with beards and brown skin, they'll refer to the wave of immigrants who arrived in the 60's mainly from Pakistan.
    So people are just lazy and ignorant to associate things with race jaja. But then what about things like 'napoleon complex'.. that is appearance based (stature) but not tied to race jaja. I wish mental health approach things this way you describe because I think the sector do things in a way which is 180 from what you say


    (Original post by Post)
    You must have heard a true racist speak at one point or another, about how "black people just can't get enough drugs" or "Arabs are a hot-headed people by nature". Some horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of race, because it leads to people seeing others as different kinds of creatures. That's why social scientists are really careful about this idea, and they should be too.
    Speaking of correlation you can say that majority of people who share this view of ours in how we understand and interact with others is because of our subject of interest/university major.. or maybe if we have travelled a lot..
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    (Original post by the_spirit_room)
    so basically you are talking about nurture over nature.. and how circumstance shapes people.. do you think the same about mental health?
    Oh yeah, definitely. I believe that mental health problems often wouldn't develop if the people had been in different environments. There are studies where, for example, a woman will be admitted to a psychiatric hospital because she is crazy, she'll get better, and then when she returns home, she goes crazy again.

    What is your view about old wife tale or some kind of thing like.. hmm for example my grandpa has negative views about Jews and I read in a forum that this person his grandma has negative view about muslim.. so this is also semi related to this topic I think
    At the end of the day, racism has been around for a long time. It's only been in the past 50 years or so that anti-racist ideas are really starting to take hold. I think just give it time and things will change.

    And how to decide in what terms to explain anything? because this now touch on something like um.. Foucault or Deleuze about labelling things. If I'm not mistaken they write about sexuality and heteronormativity
    Are speaking about whether we should still use the terms of race to fight racism? This is actually a big topic in the sociology of racism, and has lead to lots of debates. For me personally, although I can understand and appreciate movements like black nationalism, who try to re-cultivate the image of a black person, I still think it's more effective to do away with race altogether.

    So people are just lazy and ignorant to associate things with race jaja. But then what about things like 'napoleon complex'.. that is appearance based (stature) but not tied to race jaja. I wish mental health approach things this way you describe because I think the sector do things in a way which is 180 from what you say
    Yeah, I guess at the end of the day it's stereotyping.


    Speaking of correlation you can say that majority of people who share this view of ours in how we understand and interact with others is because of our subject of interest/university major.. or maybe if we have travelled a lot..
    Yeah, it is a popular view in our generation, among students especially. I think this has happened to a lot of other subjects too though. For example class, sociologists have, in the past 30 years or so, really worn it down as a concept. We're just a skeptical, cautious generation in a way.
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    There is no one here who has stated the obvious. Black men love to date white blonde women so as to rub the noses of the white men in the proverbial dirt , so to speak.
    Black men get a real power trip from bieng able to 'OWN' a pretty white woman.
    Sadly there are so many gullible and desperate and basically thick white women in this country that there job is made very easy.
    Black men can pick up any white blonde bimbo they like, pretty much anywhere.
    The media has also helped by the constant bombardment over the past 20 years of having mixed race couples on our screens in just about every drams they put on.
    You will notice, if you actually bother to look, that 98% of mixed race couples shown on your tv are Black Male with White female and not the other way round.
    Why has no one ever asked why this is ?
    I am ashamed to be a white english man and have to admit that a vast number of white english women are basically as thick as S**T and follow the herd.
    I can see it as can so many of my friends and family, so why are there so many stupid white slap**ers in this country.
    This used to be a proud nation. Now it has become a nation of half casts. White english women who sh*g blacks are the enemy of our country and traitors to the memories of all the white english women who fought so hard and gave their lives to keep this country British.
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    (Original post by andyman1966)
    There is no one here who has stated the obvious. Black men love to date white blonde women so as to rub the noses of the white men in the proverbial dirt , so to speak.
    Black men get a real power trip from bieng able to 'OWN' a pretty white woman.
    Sadly there are so many gullible and desperate and basically thick white women in this country that there job is made very easy.
    Black men can pick up any white blonde bimbo they like, pretty much anywhere.
    The media has also helped by the constant bombardment over the past 20 years of having mixed race couples on our screens in just about every drams they put on.
    You will notice, if you actually bother to look, that 98% of mixed race couples shown on your tv are Black Male with White female and not the other way round.
    Why has no one ever asked why this is ?
    I am ashamed to be a white english man and have to admit that a vast number of white english women are basically as thick as S**T and follow the herd.
    I can see it as can so many of my friends and family, so why are there so many stupid white slap**ers in this country.
    This used to be a proud nation. Now it has become a nation of half casts. White english women who sh*g blacks are the enemy of our country and traitors to the memories of all the white english women who fought so hard and gave their lives to keep this country British.


    LOL U MAD? :teehee:
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    (Original post by andyman1966)
    There is no one here who has stated the obvious. Black men love to date white blonde women so as to rub the noses of the white men in the proverbial dirt ,
    ok please let's not do this....(you are projecting insecurity and disappointment)

    please if you say this becuse of experience of exgf watching something like black porn (I have stumbled across threads like this online like 'help, my girlfriend like black porn!?' - which is similar to your complaint of british women) then i sympathise but you can say the same for white men going out with east asian/south asian etc girls to rub nose of asian men and men who watch porn in general as we all do.

    i think you should reevaluate your mindset. if you were analysing this all academically in a detached fashion then okay maybe i can indulge but it doesnt sound like so. peace be with you my friend and i hope you will find happiness with some girl of your choice who will accept you for who you are.

    also i dont think your post has anything to do with my topic but it's okay you need to vent i understand so i will not neg.

    all i can say is why care.. if the women who you are into are into black men so it's their prerogative to like whoever they like and understanding is that we all make ourselves attractive enough for who we like to like us back. for some of us, it is all worth the effort. For others, it is simply not. So that is for you to decide how to resolve... it is like economics jaja.. we all do our calculations.

    and also your statement belie the belief that white women are superior of all or that they are your property/need to be protected (this is what i understand from your post). so you are upset at black men tainting them. some people of all kinds in all corners share this kind of belief. eg punjabi family not liking daughter to marry muslim. that sort of thing. it is universal. anyway it is problematic but i have encountered people similar to you before in forums but to do with religion or different topic. though the underlying sentiment is very similar. I guess it is doubly painful that not only you believe white women to be superior, but that this phenomenon of them liking black men threaten you.

    also how to decide what constitute as 'shallow'? in this context in your resentment and disappointment you choose to use this word. The subject is that of human desire.. it is multifaceted and complex. Each have their own reasons and motivations.. some conscious, some subconscious. So you are commenting based on your own moral standards. The tone is very righteous and unjustified. Unless you are a man who ask permission from every girl he finds attractive before go off to masturbate to thoughts about them on his own. then i can understand if he want to be very righteous about standards (this i say because my flag is venezuela we are roman catholics mostly jaja) you might be able to argue that you dont steal black women from black men.. but since for you white women are higher up, it is illogical anyway.

    friend, this is 2012. globalisation has taken place. maybe for now black men are 'in'.. in Japan they also seem to be in. but interracial porn what i have read called 'yellow fever' also in. this is how the world is. we all struggle to find our place, i know. focus on what you have to offer, not what you lack and carry yourself with confidence. unity in diversity is possible but we need to set aside our insecurities and differences. or maybe u support bnp jajaajaja
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    (Original post by andyman1966)
    There is no one here who has stated the obvious. Black men love to date white blonde women so as to rub the noses of the white men in the proverbial dirt , so to speak.
    Black men get a real power trip from bieng able to 'OWN' a pretty white woman.
    Sadly there are so many gullible and desperate and basically thick white women in this country that there job is made very easy.
    Black men can pick up any white blonde bimbo they like, pretty much anywhere.
    The media has also helped by the constant bombardment over the past 20 years of having mixed race couples on our screens in just about every drams they put on.
    You will notice, if you actually bother to look, that 98% of mixed race couples shown on your tv are Black Male with White female and not the other way round.
    Why has no one ever asked why this is ?
    I am ashamed to be a white english man and have to admit that a vast number of white english women are basically as thick as S**T and follow the herd.
    I can see it as can so many of my friends and family, so why are there so many stupid white slap**ers in this country.
    This used to be a proud nation. Now it has become a nation of half casts. White english women who sh*g blacks are the enemy of our country and traitors to the memories of all the white english women who fought so hard and gave their lives to keep this country British.
    Actually, despite being extremely, extremely racist, this post does bring up a good point. What he is describing is a real phenomenon, in that "black" people often feel as if their culture has been done away with, and that they now have to resort to appropriating the "white mans" culture. Frantz Fanon talks about this exact issue in "Black skin, white masks". Here is an extract from wikipedia:

    "In this study, Fanon uses psychoanalysis and psychoanalytical theory to explain the feelings of dependency and inadequacy that Black people experience in a White world. He speaks of the divided self-perception of the Black Subject who has lost his native cultural originality and embraced the culture of the mother country. As a result of the inferiority complex engendered in the mind of the Black Subject, he will try to appropriate and imitate the cultural code of the colonizer. The behaviour, Fanon argues, is even more evident in upwardly mobile and educated Black people who can afford to acquire status symbols."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Skin,_White_Masks

    I think you can see this process today, in every music video rappers wave about all the things US culture celebrates, cash, women and fast cars, as if to say "We can do this too". And this is one of the reasons I don't believe the concept of race should be used to fight racism. The above is one kind of response to the problem of racism, for people to say "hey, look, despite our "race", we were still able to do everything you can!". But I disagree with these tactics because it accepts the ideology of race that we should be trying to undermine.
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    (Original post by Post)
    Actually, despite being extremely, extremely racist, this post does bring up a good point. What he is describing is a real phenomenon, in that "black" people often feel as if their culture has been done away with, and that they now have to resort to appropriating the "white mans" culture. Frantz Fanon talks about this exact issue in "Black skin, white masks". Here is an extract from wikipedia:

    "In this study, Fanon uses psychoanalysis and psychoanalytical theory to explain the feelings of dependency and inadequacy that Black people experience in a White world. He speaks of the divided self-perception of the Black Subject who has lost his native cultural originality and embraced the culture of the mother country. As a result of the inferiority complex engendered in the mind of the Black Subject, he will try to appropriate and imitate the cultural code of the colonizer. The behaviour, Fanon argues, is even more evident in upwardly mobile and educated Black people who can afford to acquire status symbols."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Skin,_White_Masks

    I think you can see this process today, in every music video rappers wave about all the things US culture celebrates, cash, women and fast cars, as if to say "We can do this too". And this is one of the reasons I don't believe the concept of race should be used to fight racism. The above is one kind of response to the problem of racism, for people to say "hey, look, despite our "race", we were still able to do everything you can!". But I disagree with these tactics because it accepts the ideology of race that we should be trying to undermine.

    That is actually commonplace and expected.. to integrate with culture of new country, no? Happen everywhere.. british indian and korean american for example.

    How about korean american who embrace black culture on youtube? rapper and bling and all that...? is that culture of their colonizer or simply to feel manly and get girls? in korea the variant of this insecurity is the culture of plastic surgery can be dated to the time of cold war.. or maybe before (but started with korean men? and prostitutes.. i cant remember)

    I think there are limits to Fanon. I say this becaus the same can be applied to russian nouveau riche.. they too exhibit the same behaviour. well i speak based on the women my brother have come across in england who are originally from russia. I think it is just ostentatious display of something one lack when one come from poor background or in the case of russia, only recent economic boom. same like china too now.

    The status symbol thing appear in all places.. in black-american culture thanks to media it is pervasive and because of music it is emulated by young people. and these black people who do use music to rise up they don't learn proper history.. i recognise. like Nas.. even though I like his music jaja. The only thing I am sympathetic not happening is formation of pan-africa that upsets malcolm x and nas. because africa is a mess.

    I think it is impossible to say what US culture celebrate unless one talk strictly about capitalism which is a global thing.. because usa is amalgamation of culture.. the true culture of which is native american, no? or maybe you talk about american dream but I think the rappers are not aiming for the picket fence thing.. but only rising up with a lot of odds against you. I think rap has too much content of this.. yes it sounds formulaic but they cant help it if thats their story its the only thing they compel to rap about jajaaj(i think).. u can say lazy or just emulate those who have done the same around them

    cash + (hot/many) women + fast car = evidence $ lifestyle anywhere = alpha-maleness (in looks or display) + ambition to be at top

    i dont know for how many rappers that what they do is limited to performance.. meaning they see others so its a clear formula and so to compete they need to increase the level of all that you mentioned. for example i see interview of 50 cent and you see he is different from the image he portray. same like lil wayne it seems he is total workaholic.. visual media then is just the medium that serves as one's ends and use to distort and sell a message

    for me the central themes are capitalism + poverty background + lack of education + misuse/lack of talent + only 1 shot do whatever it takes + clim socioeconomic ladder with proven formula

    because black people have been making music in america for a long time (and before they were better and not bothered by any showy things) so maybe this is just what sells today and if their life depend on this 'one dream' they go all out? i dont know. this is just my layman analysis. i have also seen this phenomenon you describe associated with 'low culture' in general like kim kardashian also on same boat

    you can contrast with john legend who is educated and have more talent and holistic upbringing.. he dont do this kind of music. i just think mainstream rap is 'street-smart' music.
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    (Original post by the_spirit_room)
    That is actually commonplace and expected.. to integrate with culture of new country, no? Happen everywhere.. british indian and korean american for example.

    How about korean american who embrace black culture on youtube? rapper and bling and all that...? is that culture of their colonizer or simply to feel manly and get girls? in korea the variant of this insecurity is the culture of plastic surgery can be dated to the time of cold war.. or maybe before (but started with korean men? and prostitutes.. i cant remember)

    I think there are limits to Fanon. I say this becaus the same can be applied to russian nouveau riche.. they too exhibit the same behaviour. well i speak based on the women my brother have come across in england who are originally from russia. I think it is just ostentatious display of something one lack when one come from poor background or in the case of russia, only recent economic boom. same like china too now.

    The status symbol thing appear in all places.. in black-american culture thanks to media it is pervasive and because of music it is emulated by young people. and these black people who do use music to rise up they don't learn proper history.. i recognise. like Nas.. even though I like his music jaja. The only thing I am sympathetic not happening is formation of pan-africa that upsets malcolm x and nas. because africa is a mess.

    I think it is impossible to say what US culture celebrate unless one talk strictly about capitalism which is a global thing.. because usa is amalgamation of culture.. the true culture of which is native american, no? or maybe you talk about american dream but I think the rappers are not aiming for the picket fence thing.. but only rising up with a lot of odds against you. I think rap has too much content of this.. yes it sounds formulaic but they cant help it if thats their story its the only thing they compel to rap about jajaaj(i think).. u can say lazy or just emulate those who have done the same around them

    cash + (hot/many) women + fast car = evidence $ lifestyle anywhere = alpha-maleness (in looks or display) + ambition to be at top

    i dont know for how many rappers that what they do is limited to performance.. meaning they see others so its a clear formula and so to compete they need to increase the level of all that you mentioned. for example i see interview of 50 cent and you see he is different from the image he portray. same like lil wayne it seems he is total workaholic

    for me the central themes are capitalism + poverty background + lack of education + misuse/lack of talent + only 1 shot do whatever it takes + clim socioeconomic ladder with proven formula

    because black people have been making music in america for a long time (and before they were better and not bothered by any showy things) so maybe this is just what sells today and if their life depend on this 'one dream' they go all out? i dont know. this is just my layman analysis. i have also seen this phenomenon you describe associated with 'low culture' in general like kim kardashian also on same boat
    Yeah, I agree with most of the things you're saying. I think the main point that I was making in relation to Fanon though, was that this identity is being constructed on a racialized basis. So yes, of course people get integrated into new cultures, but the point is that sometimes they get integrated as "black people", and they then construct their own identities on this basis.
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    Exactly, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they're black does it? It's to do with the income, their employment, geography, upbringing etc, etc. Nothing to do with these insignificant traits like the shape of your nose or shade of your skin. So yes, blacks do get involved in crime more in some areas, but it's more accurate to say that those with lower incomes, living in these areas, with this level of education, blah blah blah, get involved in crime more. Why make a correlation with skin color when it's so trivial? It's like looking at shoe size or eye color. It's of no use to a social scientist, that's for sure, social scientists have to be more accurate than that. Instead of saying those guys with beards and brown skin, they'll refer to the wave of immigrants who arrived in the 60's mainly from Pakistan.
    It is entirely true that poverty breeds crime. But it is also possible that inherent racial difference is a reason for difference in poverty levels. Since this topic is taboo and a researcher risks his livelihood to discuss this UNLESS he agrees with the assumption that we are all equal we do not know whether racial factors plays a part in poverty. So we are left with anecdotal evidence and that doesn't paint a pretty picture.
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    (Original post by SerrenDipp)
    It is entirely true that poverty breeds crime. But it is also possible that inherent racial difference is a reason for difference in poverty levels. Since this topic is taboo and a researcher risks his livelihood to discuss this UNLESS he agrees with the assumption that we are all equal we do not know whether racial factors plays a part in poverty. So we are left with anecdotal evidence and that doesn't paint a pretty picture.
    I can see why you would say that, but I would disagree with a number of points:

    1. You still have to define a race. Can you point to any particular races? A homogenious group with the same inherent racial, genetic qualities that you talk about? How are you, the scientist, going to identify these people? There is a history behind this by the way, don't think that it has been a taboo for science, there have been many studies done on race. Look up race and education for example. But nowadays most scientists will consistently tell you that race, as a category for doing research, is almost useless because a) they can't define race, and b) there are much more accurate ways of explaining why people do the things they do.

    2. We are definitely not all equal, that's for sure. But to say that some people are inherently worse than others means we need to see some evidence.

    3. By the way, I am not saying that genetic factors don't influence behaviour. There are populations that are more prone to sickle cell disease. My point is that it's useless to to categorize these populations into races because often times there is more difference genetically within races than between them. It's the category that's the problem, and there are much more accurate categories that can be used such as geography, age, education, income, wealth, family history of disease etc. It's just like class, although inequality exists, it's pretty much useless to divide people into upper and lower class when you are trying to do research.

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