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Cameron describes unpaid work scheme opponents as "Trotskyites"

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    (Original post by nonotrly)
    "These 'campaigners' who were so opposed to this scheme were made up of far left socialist workers party clowns and communists" was enough, why bother quoting the rest of your rant?

    Stop pretending and getting defensive. If you're going to hold radical views than at least back yourself up by saying "yes, I hold these views and they're radical but they're what I believe". How can you expect others to share or even acknowledge your views if you're not even confident in them yourself?

    I think I speak for the vast majority when I saw we don't want your discriminating kind here, and we certainly don't want people who use political names to tar people with the same brush just to try and strengthen your own political view, whether it be strong enough or simply insults without.

    The opening statement you quoted is a fact I'm afraid.

    It's all very well dismissing statements as discriminatory if they are wildly inaccurate but it kind of defeats your point if it is true!

    As for political name calling, I used the word clowns when referring to the far left socialist workers party for which I apologise; everything else was relevant descriptions of political groups.

    Also I do hold conviction in my views and I don't feel they are in anyway radical. I think you'll find that the majority of the population support these perfectly sensible attempts to solve the problem of people being consigned to the dole for generations; and are hostile to the campaign movement against it which is clearly a far left movement to "protect the workers against evil big business".

    These mainstream views may be radical in your peer group but that probably says more about your peer group than the views of the majority of the public.

    So why not discuss the rights and wrongs of the governments policy and whether the oppososition are "trotskyists" rather than launching into a defensive (offensive) position about the percieved tone of the comments.

    As for "I think I speak for the vast majority when I say we don't want your discriminating kind here". What is this the 50's?!
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    I think you'll find that the majority of the population support these perfectly sensible attempts to solve the problem of people being consigned to the dole for generations; and are hostile to the campaign movement against it which is clearly a far left movement to "protect the workers against evil big business".
    I disagree.
    I think you will find that the vast majority of people agree that if you do an honest days work, you deserve to actually be paid for doing that work by the employer.

    You will also find that many people think having a system that allows large companies to use free labour instead of providing much needed jobs, in a time when there simply are not enough jobs around, very very stupid indeed.

    Basically, we need companies to create jobs (as there are not enough jobs out there right now). So we need to encourage that. But we aren't. We are doing the exactly opposite. Tesco won't employ someone and pay them the NMW if they can get someone to do exactly the same job for free! (the only reason Tesco have backtracked on this is because of the public disgust at the scheme).
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    Quite right!

    These 'campaigners' who were so opposed to this scheme were made up of far left socialist workers party clowns and communists.
    Little do they know they're far left utopia only works if the whole world is in it too.

    We have to compete with China and other countries where children are so driven to better themselves and learn that on a documentary I saw the kids were begging their parents to fund extra education out of school time, so the parents were working all hours god sends and the kids were in class all hours god sends in the evening after school and on Saturday and Sunday.

    They will work for nothing and will be glad of the experience. That is what we're up against and must compete on a global scale. What these Trotskyists don't understand is that giving young people the chance to gain skills and experience that will benefit them and us as a society isn't oppression but common sense and doing them a favour.

    How do these Trotskyists think we generated our wealth in the first place? It certainly wasn't from the attitude of lazy entitlement that they promote. It was bloody hard work and working for free to gain experience is a good thing. Anyway they aren't working for free as they are being paid benefits! They have no alternative suggestions to improve things; just block any sensible attempt to sort out the problem and continue scraping along at the bottom with the current failling status quo.

    So should people who've been out of work for years (some families have 3 generations where they have NEVER worked!) continue living off the backs of those who pay for their benefits without any obligation to offer anything in return?! That's morally right is it?!

    Thankfully the silent majority are overwhelmingly in favour of this plan and the opposition are a minute fringe pressure group way out of touch with most of the population.

    The Trotskyist's obsession with evil big business exploiting the poor worker is way off the mark!

    We're almost completely bankrupt as a country because greedy unions and other lazy far left communist organisations have pushed our wages so high that we're uncompetitive globally. The Chinese will glady take the work at a price we refuse to work for! Look at our manufacturing industry.

    That's why their country is booming and ours is going down the toilet. Thanks Trotskyists!
    you say "left socialists" like it's an insult lol. You wouldn't be the first one either.
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    The opening statement you quoted is a fact I'm afraid.

    It's all very well dismissing statements as discriminatory if they are wildly inaccurate but it kind of defeats your point if it is true!
    you're joking of course. i mean, i know you probably are, but sometimes you have to proclaim it because there really are people that one-dimensional out there!
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    As for "I think I speak for the vast majority when I say we don't want your discriminating kind here". What is this the 50's?!
    All you've done is copied what I've said because my thinking was sharper, and it doesn't even make sense the way you've used it.

    I know what you're trying to do, but you should aim it at someone who takes the bait.
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    (Original post by nonotrly)
    All you've done is copied what I've said because my thinking was sharper, and it doesn't even make sense the way you've used it.

    I know what you're trying to do, but you should aim it at someone who takes the bait.
    Your thinking was sharper?! Ok then.

    Still not going to debate the points eh? Nevermind
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    you say "left socialists" like it's an insult lol. You wouldn't be the first one either.
    I'd say to most of the population it is.
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    (Original post by TrulyEpicLawls)
    you're joking of course. i mean, i know you probably are, but sometimes you have to proclaim it because there really are people that one-dimensional out there!
    The 'campaigners' I was referring to; and Cameron was are undoubtedly far left trotskyists, communists etc. That means the people threatening to occupy businesses who participate in this perfectly reasonable scheme. This isn't saying everyone opposed to this attempt to sort out the total scandal of generations of people with no experience of getting up in the morning or being job ready is!

    The radical activists are the ones derailing the scheme.

    I know there's a shortage of jobs but even when we have growth certain feckless individuals will still not be capable of work and no employer in their right mind would employ them forcing us to import more foreign labour while paying for our people not to work with all the hidden costs and problems that causes; in our country and the home countries of the migrant labour force.
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    (Original post by Hobo389)
    No government is stupid enough to simply allow companies to take advantage, the whole scheme is very tightly controlled by the government.
    On Channel 4 news recently it emerged that just one branch of Asda took on eleven of these 'voluntary unpaid work schemes' over the Christmas period and as a result had to hire no additional staff and avoided paying overtime during the busiest time of the year. There were other examples of retail giants doing the same too. If you were already aware of this then you have very strange ideas about what taking advantage does and does not entail.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    I disagree.
    I think you will find that the vast majority of people agree that if you do an honest days work, you deserve to actually be paid for doing that work by the employer.

    You will also find that many people think having a system that allows large companies to use free labour instead of providing much needed jobs, in a time when there simply are not enough jobs around, very very stupid indeed.

    Basically, we need companies to create jobs (as there are not enough jobs out there right now). So we need to encourage that. But we aren't. We are doing the exactly opposite. Tesco won't employ someone and pay them the NMW if they can get someone to do exactly the same job for free! (the only reason Tesco have backtracked on this is because of the public disgust at the scheme).
    Look it's not an ideal situation but wee have to at least try to do something to sort things out.

    In an ideal world no one would disagree with you that people should get paid by the employer for a days work but reality isn't that simple I'm afraid.

    Your idealistic stance really proposes doing nothing until the economic situation improves when we will have legions of people with no experience or inclination to work rendering them unemployable.

    Is it right that people have never had the opportunity to work and will suffer when things improve because of that lack of experience and working mindset?

    It seems lots of opponents to this are based on idealistic notions which don't acknowledge the dire state we're in and the need to take at least some action. Happy to keep the shocking status quo without trying to make improvements.

    Also companies are encouraged to take on extra staff to give them experience as they pay nothing rather than substitute them over paying people they would normally employ. Obviously some companies will try it on for free labour but surely it's not too hard to police & prevent rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water and abolish the whole scheme?!

    Sometimes you have to stop these endless objections and look at the greater good. It's not going to be perfect but at least the govt are trying to do something.


    It isn't slave labour, they are gaining valuable experience while being paid benefits ultimately funded by others hard work. Is it right they should have no obligation at all and can expect others hard work to fund a life on benefits? Now that is slave labour.
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    I'd say to most of the population it is.
    Then"most of the population" is quite narrow-minded.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    On Channel 4 news recently it emerged that just one branch of Asda took on eleven of these 'voluntary unpaid work schemes' over the Christmas period and as a result had to hire no additional staff and avoided paying overtime during the busiest time of the year. There were other examples of retail giants doing the same too. If you were already aware of this then you have very strange ideas about what taking advantage does and does not entail.
    So they were caught out and won't be doing it again. You've highlighted it perfectly. So between the govt, press and members of the public and internal whistle blowers it's nigh on impossible to get away with it. Even you know it, hardly top secret then is it.

    So 11 people got through the net, very small price to pay so now thousands of people needing experience can benefit.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Then"most of the population" is quite narrow-minded.
    In your opinion
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    In your opinion
    Not really. I for one dont agree with exploiting people for the benefit of the few rich.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Not really. I for one dont agree with exploiting people for the benefit of the few rich.
    If you think that is an accurate appraisal of this situation then it's you who are narrow minded!

    Can you see no benefit in people gaining experience that will benefit them in future?! No it's the evil rich again oppressing the poor worker isn't it?!

    You're happy bumping along the bottom with the current situation I take it. These people are getting their benefits while gaining valuable experience.

    What's the problem?
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    If you think that is an accurate appraisal of this situation then it's you who are narrow minded!

    Can you see no benefit in people gaining experience that will benefit them in future?! No it's the evil rich again oppressing the poor worker isn't it?!

    You're happy bumping along the bottom with the current situation I take it. These people are getting their benefits while gaining valuable experience.

    What's the problem?
    The experience does not benefit people in the future. These placements last 8 weeks, sometimes longer. It only takes half a day at most to learn to stack shelves and a lot of the people on this scheme are people who have either worked and been made redundant or graduates who already have retail experience. The only people benefiting are the big businesses and the Daily Mail readers who want to see the scroungers forced to work.

    That said I think encouraging people to get work experience is a good idea but I would have these conditions for it;
    - It should be voluntary with no loss of benefits if someone doesn't do it.
    - It should be part time not full time.
    - It should be relevant to the persons career goals.
    - It should be encouraged in charities instead of private businesses.
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    (insert all posts here)
    I don't throw the 'troll' name around to people who just have a different view or experience, but... when they're just being obvious... I think you need a hobby.
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    (Original post by ozzyoscy)
    I don't throw the 'troll' name around to people who just have a different view or experience, but... when they're just being obvious... I think you need a hobby.
    Well done.
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    (Original post by emi_sarb)
    The experience does not benefit people in the future. These placements last 8 weeks, sometimes longer. It only takes half a day at most to learn to stack shelves and a lot of the people on this scheme are people who have either worked and been made redundant or graduates who already have retail experience. The only people benefiting are the big businesses and the Daily Mail readers who want to see the scroungers forced to work.

    That said I think encouraging people to get work experience is a good idea but I would have these conditions for it;
    - It should be voluntary with no loss of benefits if someone doesn't do it.
    - It should be part time not full time.
    - It should be relevant to the persons career goals.
    - It should be encouraged in charities instead of private businesses.
    I think you've completely missed the point. It's not to teach the skill of stacking shelves, it's to get people used to the routine of work, getting up in the morning, taking instructions, interacting with people in a professional environment etc etc.

    So you don't think there are any people on benfits through choice who dont want to work? Come on.

    I think working in private business is crucial, that's what we need to get us out of the mess and compete internationally to grow the economy.

    While charity work is very admirable it isn't going to give this experience. like labour creating all these unnecessary ghost jobs in the public sector to hide the unemployment figures.

    As for part time that doesn't give the true flavour of a full time job and it's not practical to offer it in the people's career choice, the jobs aren't there currently and for the career unemployed stacking shelves is realistically all they will be able to get anyway.
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    (Original post by DanRBlake)
    If you think that is an accurate appraisal of this situation then it's you who are narrow minded!

    Can you see no benefit in people gaining experience that will benefit them in future?! No it's the evil rich again oppressing the poor worker isn't it?!

    You're happy bumping along the bottom with the current situation I take it. These people are getting their benefits while gaining valuable experience.

    What's the problem?
    I don't see working in Tesco's as being "valuable experience", and if I don't think it's acceptable work for myself, I shouldn't see it as being acceptable for anyone else.

    So no, is my answer.

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