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If God exists why create a universe so vast?

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    (Original post by jmenkus)
    Like this:

    Attachment 137521
    Say this is true, what created the universe before that?
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    (Original post by jmenkus)
    What sort of free will is that? "You're free to do whatever you want, as long as it's what I want you to do. If you refuse, you will be tortured for eternity."
    Because "free will" is the ability to choose. If one choice has a bad outcome and the other has a good outcome, that doesn't mean you don't have free will.

    Free will is not outcome dependent, it is an inherent definition.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Like I said, sometimes we don't know the purpose. We've lived on this earth long enough to have learnt that everything on this earth has a purpose.

    God is a Wise Creator and there is a purpose to everything. Just because we don't know it, doesn't mean that it's purposeless.

    Did people 2000 years ago know the deeper significance of some plants apart from they look nice? Only now we know that it has wider uses such as medicine.

    Therefore maybe 100 or so years from now when we've explored space, we'll know more about black holes etc.
    I totally agree with u
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Because "free will" is the ability to choose. If one choice has a bad outcome and the other has a good outcome, that doesn't mean you don't have free will.

    Free will is not outcome dependent, it is an inherent definition.
    This is equivalent to pointing a gun at someone's head when they walk into a polling booth, telling them which candidate to vote for, and afterwards claiming that the elections were free because by 'inherent definition', the voters had free choice of candidate.
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    (Original post by jmenkus)
    This is equivalent to pointing a gun at someone's head when they walk into a polling booth, telling them which candidate to vote for, and afterwards claiming that the elections were free because by 'inherent definition', the voters had free choice of candidate.
    No it isn't the same. In life, there are good and bad outcomes. We're talking universally good and universally bad. For example: murder.

    The example you gave can hardly be considered a good vs. bad comparison.

    The free will we're talking about is the choice between choosing good vs. bad. Not choosing between two random and obscure things like politicians.

    An better example would've been someone pointing a gun at you and asking you to choose between doing something good and doing something bad. No one is forcing you to choose the bad thing, and then deal with the resultant consequences. You have full freedom to choose to do the good thing, and not have any consequences..
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    Why not ?. Its like asking you why did you make certain food in breakfast and why did you make it in that portion? why not big or small?.
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    (Original post by jmenkus)
    What sort of free will is that? "You're free to do whatever you want, as long as it's what I want you to do. If you refuse, you will be tortured for eternity."
    The free will is there to choose your own destiny. God gave you the free will, told you right from wrong and said, if you want to suceed in the purpose of your life, then follow my rules which are there for your own benefit.

    If you want to harm yourself and destroy your soul, then rebel and don't follow my rules but be warned, you are creating your own Hell.

    Anyway, the basic rules that God has given us are there to lead us to perfection as human beings. That is the purpose of our life. Any person that is generous, grateful, kind, honest, and believes in God and does good on the earth will always go to Heaven.

    If you do evil, which is universally condemned anyway, and harms innocent people, then you're obviously going to Hell. And Hell isn't eternal as people think, Hell is a result of our own misdeeds and born out of them. It is a kind of painful rehabilitation and reformation because you corrupted yourself so much. Ultimatley, we learn that God will even clear Hell and grant everyone Paradise.
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    perhaps i can see them if he kindly lets me into heaven:daydreaming:
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    (Original post by tif49)
    The free will is there to choose your own destiny. God gave you the free will, told you right from wrong and said, if you want to suceed in the purpose of your life, then follow my rules which are there for your own benefit.

    If you want to harm yourself and destroy your soul, then rebel and don't follow my rules but be warned, you are creating your own Hell.

    Anyway, the basic rules that God has given us are there to lead us to perfection as human beings.
    That is the purpose of our life. Any person that is generous, grateful, kind, honest, and believes in God and does good on the earth will always go to Heaven.

    If you do evil, which is universally condemned anyway, and harms innocent people, then you're obviously going to Hell. And Hell isn't eternal as people think, Hell is a result of our own misdeeds and born out of them. It is a kind of painful rehabilitation and reformation because you corrupted yourself so much. Ultimatley, we learn that God will even clear Hell and grant everyone Paradise.
    I really think you need to specify which religion you are talking about here.

    I am a Christian and I can tell you with 100% accuracy that God does not want us to be perfect as you said. Only Jesus Christ was perfect. His coming to earth was necessary because mankind is not perfect and therefore in sin, and must be redeemed. We are not on a path to get ultimate perfection because that's like saying we are on a path to becoming like God; as only God is perfect.

    Not disagreeing with your overall point though, just that specific distinction.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    I really think you need to specify which religion you are talking about here.

    I am a Christian and I can tell you with 100% accuracy that God does not want us to be perfect as you said. Only Jesus Christ was perfect. His coming to earth was necessary because mankind is not perfect and therefore in sin, and must be redeemed. We are not on a path to get ultimate perfection because that's like saying we are on a path to becoming like God; as only God is perfect.

    Not disagreeing with your overall point though, just that specific distinction.
    Yeah, sorry I was speaking from the Islamic perspective.

    We agree that God is the Most Perfect and that Muhammad, His Messenger was the most perfect man to walk on this earth. Likewise we believe Jesus was also the most perfect man and Messenger of his time to walk the face of the earth.

    We believe that we cannot reach ultimate perfection as only God is ultimatley perfect and has unlimited attributes, many of which we'll only find out in the afterlife.

    Therefore our purpose in life is to try and inculcate Godly attributes within ourselves and strive for perfection as far as is possible. The closer we become to God, the better life we will have. The farther a person goes from God, the worse his Hell becomes.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Only Jesus Christ was perfect. .
    Upon what grounds do you make this statement? I would strongly disagree.,


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    I really think you need to specify which religion you are talking about here.

    I am a Christian and I can tell you with 100% accuracy that God does not want us to be perfect as you said. Only Jesus Christ was perfect. His coming to earth was necessary because mankind is not perfect and therefore in sin, and must be redeemed. We are not on a path to get ultimate perfection because that's like saying we are on a path to becoming like God; as only God is perfect.

    Not disagreeing with your overall point though, just that specific distinction.
    I wouldn't say that Jesus was perfect according to the bible as a child he killed people and throughout the bible he says to kill people for doing things such as cursing your mother and things like that. To me they are not perfect acts.

    Also "God" isn't perfect either in the bible he has killed over 2million people which to me doesn't seem perfect or good. I know you could argue that in your opinion he created everything blah blah blah but from the view of an athiest it doesn't seem "perfect" to kill so many people sentence them to hell and say that hes all forgiving and good. Whereas Satan on the other hand 10 people in the bible seems a bit odd to me that the guy you worship has killed a couple million people whereas the evil guy has killed 10.
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    Some people won't believe in God no matter what and some people will. Some questions are just weird though....
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    (Original post by MeTheFlower)
    Upon what grounds do you make this statement? I would strongly disagree.,


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
    Why do you disagree? What did Jesus do that was imperfect?
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    (Original post by beccac94)
    I wouldn't say that Jesus was perfect according to the bible as a child he killed people and throughout the bible he says to kill people for doing things such as cursing your mother and things like that. To me they are not perfect acts.

    Also "God" isn't perfect either in the bible he has killed over 2million people which to me doesn't seem perfect or good. I know you could argue that in your opinion he created everything blah blah blah but from the view of an athiest it doesn't seem "perfect" to kill so many people sentence them to hell and say that hes all forgiving and good. Whereas Satan on the other hand 10 people in the bible seems a bit odd to me that the guy you worship has killed a couple million people whereas the evil guy has killed 10.
    LOLWUT?
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    LOLWUT?
    You've obviously never read The Infancy Gospel of Thomas where it clearly states that jesus kills people. Its one of the earlier christian writings.

    Jesus said soemthing along the lines of "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death"
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    (Original post by beccac94)
    You've obviously never read The Infancy Gospel of Thomas where it clearly states that jesus kills people. Its one of the earlier christian writings.

    Jesus said soemthing along the lines of "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death"
    Incidentally that and other gospels are a good bit of evidence that the Bible as it's presented now isn't the word of God since the early church purposely edited out anything they didn't like - like Jesus having a really crappy personality when he was young!
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    (Original post by Lukermsdn111)
    If God exists why create a universe so vast that we humans cannot even comprehend its size or dream of travelling to these places?

    This picture seems pertinent: http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-conten...oadcasts1.jpeg
    God is the universe you muppet.
    Reality is God. But forget the typical notion of an omnipotent man like God (It is far too anthropomorphic, anyway). Rather, view God as a description for the objective reality, otherwise known as ''the absolute'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)
    In short, as many know and as practically all philosophers (and a number of scientists) agree, our reality relies on perception. In other words, our reality is an interpretation. The wall to the left of me is white. But what does that mean? Well, the wall reflects all frequencies of the visible light spectrum, which, when reflected, can enter our retina. All cone types in our retina (responsible for colour perception) would be stimulated by the reflected light, for white light contains red light, green light and blue light - there is a cone cell type sensitive to each.
    Cone cells are nerves, they, once stimulated, send signals to our brains and these signals are interpreted to conjure an image, representative of our reality, right?
    Well, no. That representation is reliant on (a) the senses themselves (ie the cones and rods) and (b) the mind synthesis of those signals - both of which are subjective interpretations. Thus, what we see, is not necessarily representative of reality, so we call it conditional reality.
    Now, you may immediately dismiss this as a load of claptrap, but let me demonstrate a very easy, real world, proven example.
    I am colour blind, that is, the cones in my retina, the ones responsible for reg/green perception, are damaged and not very sensitive. As a result, my projection of the world is different to yours.
    Click the link, it demonstrates the difference between how a colour blind person sees the world and how a normal vision person sees the world. Well, I use 'difference' carefully here, for as someone colour blind, I see know difference at all. To me, both pictures are exactly the same.
    http://mattwilcox.net/archive/entry/id/513/

    Sight is limited in other ways too, for one, our eyes have a limited dynamic range too.
    What this demonstrates is that reality is conditional on the perceiver, and so isn't reality at all. Which begs the question, what are we perceiving? What is being interpreted? Reality's state, without human perception, is known as the unconditional reality, or the absolute. Our reality is known as the material/physical world, or rather the cave of shadows, as Plato establish in the allegory of the cave.
    The whole notion of a material world,is by the way, possibly false. All something has to have to 'exist' is a property. Atoms only exist because they have properties, notably they tend to reflect light, and, when a force is exerted on them, they exert an equal and opposite force in return (Newton's third law). Without these two properties, to us, they would not exist. But things do supposedly exist which lack these properties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon. If an object can reflect light and a force, then we can sense them simply because touch and sight allows us to do so. However, it is quite possible for there to exist properties that cannot be sensed. Take dark matter. Dark matter does not reflect, or emit light. We cannot see it, our instruments cannot detect it. So does it exist? Well, we deduce that it does, simply by observing the effect it has on our solar system. It still has gravity, another property. But it is equally possible that there are things that exist, but we can never know of, for they display properties (a)beyond human sensual perception (noumenon) (b)beyond human comprehension.
    Human comprehension is an important and too often disregarded factor that affects perception. Our intelligence is limited, and we tend to think in certain ways. Notably, we tend to assume that something has to have been created in order to exist (perhaps due to the fact that we, ourselves, are 'created' through conception), however, science tells us that matter is eternal. This is a more basic example, the main point here is that there will be phenomenon (phenomenon are just events observed within the conditional reality as opposed to noumenon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon from the unconditional reality). As Arthur Eddington argued 'The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose'
    Please read, and please refute. Cheers.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    God created EVERYTHING for a purpose.
    Then what purpose do vestigial organs serve?
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    (Original post by Politricks)
    Then what purpose do vestigial organs serve?
    Firstly, I'm not a scientist or doctor. Secondly, didn't you read the rest of that post you are quoting? Quote all of it why don't you.

    I clearly said:

    Sometimes we don't know the purpose. For example only in recent times we have realised the true significance and purpose of trees and plants - for oxygen and medicine.
    Just because you don't know the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one. What kind of narrow minded person would take this view? Not saying you are one, just pointing out that we only have very little information about the world and universe but we've lived long enough on this earth to realise that everything has a purpose despite not knowing it all.

    So go ask a doctor or scientist. Otherwise go and Google it.

    Look: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...al-organs.html

    SEE, further studies prove they have a purpose and actually work.

    So don't take that view that just because we don't know the purpose, or seemingly it has no purpose, then it doesn't. Like I said EVERYTHING has a purpose!

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