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If God exists why create a universe so vast?

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    (Original post by tif49)
    My point was that despite all these asteroids and movements in the universe, still the entire universe remains in order and has done so for billions of years. Again, very convenient for us if you truly believe all this is happening just by sheer luck and chance.
    I've addressed this point so many times I'm becoming frustrated. If a Universe cropped up that didn't work, we would not be here to wonder about it. In fact, it would probably destroy itself instantaneously. On a cyclic view of the Universe's life, this may actually have happened. One time, it worked, and here we are at the hundredth flip of the coin.

    (Original post by tif49)
    Also it says 'but our Earth and solar system are in no danger of being destroyed.' Awfully convenient isn't it that the one planet and solar system which definitely has life is in no danger of being destroyed despite all these big events happening up there.
    If you read carefully it says the Sun will probably be ripped from the Solar System. The Earth and all the other bodies in our solar system will be flung out of their orbits and into the abyss, ending the harmony you perceive. This will leave us in temperatures approaching absolute zero and will end all life on Earth.

    (Original post by tif49)
    We don't know what these black holes are for, yes. But in 100 years or so we may very well find out. Thus, again it will give evidence that there is a God who has created black holes for a purpose that people 100 years ago were unaware of. In the vast universe, and the laws that govern us, and our existence, there is more than sufficient evidence to support the existence of a Higher Power.
    And we may not. You can't use for evidence something that might happen.

    I find it funny that people in the past used God to explain things they didn't know, and today people use him to explain stuff we do. What will happen if a day comes when we 'solve' our physical universe, boiling the laws of physics down to one or few interlinked and fundamental principles? Will that be 'evidence' for God's existence, or the precise opposite? Why is it that both the bewildering complexity and the fundamental simplicity of our Universe are given as evidence for the existence of a guiding hand? It's just fitting the available evidence to an existing belief, and it strikes me as bilge.

    (Original post by tif49)
    Fine. But what I'm saying is that if we think about it logically, rationally and ponder over the earth, the laws of nature and everything properly, we can only conclude that at least there must be a God or some higher power controlling it all and sustaining it all and has been doing so since it all began.
    Appeal to common sense, otherwise known as common nonsense. We have cognitive biases, built in by evolution, which were presumably useful in the past but often give rise to false positives. One example is the tendency to attribute all face-like things with 'face' status, meaning that we interpret as face-like many things which look nothing like faces, such as the front of cars or simplistic children's stick drawings.

    One of the more relevant of these is the tendency to infer a designer upon seeing something which appears to work well. This would have been useful in the past, say, when coming across an unfamiliar human's camp. An animal without this ability might think it was merely coincidentally useful, make it its home, and be killed when the previous inhabitant returned from hunting. Again, this gives rise to false positives. Saying "if you think about it, there really must have been a designer" is simply to say "our universe works well". You're not using logic, you're relying on an arbitrary evolutionary bias which is tied up with our cave man history.

    (Original post by tif49)
    OK but he still believed in some superior force or something above which is incomprehensible to humans.

    “That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of superior
    reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible
    universe, forms my idea of God.”

    He believed in something 'superior' which is keeping the universe intact.
    Yeah, the laws of physics.

    (Original post by tif49)
    Everything has to start somewhere or from something right? This is the scientific approach. Our universe is governed by cause and effect. There is a cause for everything. So God is that Ultimate Cause of all causes. It begins with Him and end with Him. Nothing is beyond Him. It has to start from somewhere and end somewhere. So it all originates from God and it all ends with Him.
    Erm, that is not what cause and effect entails. In fact, the very basis for cause and effect is that something doesn't come from nothing. Everything happens because something else happened. Cause and effect does not extend to causing things to come into existence or to cease to exist, in fact it works against it. The 'scientific approach' also says (i) conservation of mass and (ii) conservation of energy. This means mass-energy cannot be created or destroyed.

    (Original post by tif49)
    My point was that if as you say, the universe, all the laws and everything were perfectly fitted into place by itself. Then we would only survive. Yet we find we have even more than just to simply survive. We have intelligence and resources to thrive not just survive. That indicates a design and plan. All these resources that come out through the ages couldn't have just been there by chance. Why do we always find means to not only survive but to progress and thrive and discover.

    If it was all by chance, which is rather far-fetched, then the best we could have hoped for is simply to survive like other animals. Yet we have a higher conscience, intelligence and a sense of our existence and being. More than any other animal. We have much stronger passions, emotions and desires than animals. The suggestion that it all came into being perfectly by chance is inconceivable because then we would only be animals like the rest of the species, not higher, more developed beings capable of thinking and progressing and discovering and building.
    And yet children in Africa are starving and dying from disease and famine, slums in Brazil stretch as far as the eye can see and people lie buried under the ground at the foot of Mount Vesuvius. Not everyone thrives.

    (Original post by tif49)
    Yeah but that is illogical. The universe is so perfectly in harmony with no incongruity whatsoever so the theory that it all happened just by coincidence and chance is unbelievably irrational. Nothing in this world happens by chance, certainly not such complex and elaborate phenomena as the universe is with the multitudes of laws and processes working together in harmony and has been doing so for billions of years.

    You can't find a flaw in the overall design of the universe. I can admit that some things, small things may happen by coincidence or chance. But what I cannot accept and no rational person can, is that such a massive operation came into being by itself, established itself perfectly, and continues to regulate itself and sustain itself perfectly without a Higher Power.
    If you're going to repeat this point ad nauseam, I'm not going to respond to it. I've done so in previous posts and at the beginning of this one.
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    (Original post by Chronist)
    No, it is not simple observation. We realise that only sentience beings have purposes. "Lower" beings have no more purposes than a robot does.
    Again, I repeat how do you know God is a purposeful being? I asked you earlier and you have not answered but instead keep repeating like a parrot that God (whose existence you cannot even prove) has purposes.
    Well if you say that only sentience beings have a purpose, then God would also be purposeful.

    Furthermore, if you were to study the design of nature then you'd see that everything has a purpose in this life. Therefore God is purposeful as He does everything with a purpose. Why did he create water? Why did he create trees? They all serve purposes do they not?

    Humans are purposeful. You won't find a single human acting without a purpose.
    No. Humans act for a reason, not a purpose. They indulge in vain nonsense half the time which doesn't benefit them at all.

    How exactly can you become close to God by worshipping him? Maybe if you acted like him you might get close but worship makes no sense at all. Also, he might be almighty but it does not follow (and you have no way to know) if he is actually perfect.
    What is worship? Worship means trying to become like the person you worship, to hold him in high regard. To praise him, to love him, to obey him. This is worship. Don't people 'worship' footballers and celebrities? They follow them, copy them, praise them, desire to become like them. Only God is worthy of worship though as He is the perfect Being, therefore we strive to become as close to him as possible.

    His creation bears testimony to the fact that he is perfect. The very concept of God demands that he must be perfect otherwise He wouldn't be God now would He? Then he has revealed Himself to certain people, Messengers and the like. He has revealed His nature and his attributes which are unlimited and therefore perfect. Choose to believe or not but the proof is in the creation of the universe and diverse forms of life.

    "If you don't worship God you have to worship someone". That is illogical, makes no sense and makes me think you must be a troll. I won't bother replying to you if you cannot argue like an adult.
    Educate yourself and come back with a decent reply.
    Yes, you have to worship someone or something. What drives you to do things? What makes you do certain acts? Is it for the approval of people? Is it the approval of your parents? Is it to satisfy your own ego? Therefore you worship your own self, or other people whose approval you seek and therefore you try your best to please them. Even though you yourself are not worthy of being worship nor is anyone else since they themselves are flawed.

    Now does it make more sense? What's illogical is that you choose worship of yourself or others despite the fact that you yourself are deeply flawed as are others.

    If God is almighty and perfect, and indeed He is, then He is the only one worthy of worship.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Right and look where India is right now. The countries most advanced in the world have been followers of monotheistic religions.
    ...India is one of the world's foremost emerging markets...

    (Original post by tif49)
    OK, how big is it? What caused the big bang? Where did the material inside the big bang come from? Answer me these from science if you can. I don't reject science at all by the way. Science is simply the way God works.
    Causation ceases to be a coherent concept when talking of the 'cause' of the Big Bang, because there was never any such thing as time before the Big Bang. Time does not exist independently of the Universe.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Don't you sometimes have to be harsh and strict on your kids? On teenagers? Why? Because you know better and want the best for them. Tough love so to speak.
    Yeah but there's tough love and then there's mass death. It's hardly a slap on the wrist is it!

    Firstly, God does everything for a higher purpose.
    Proof? Source? Don't say the bible or Qu'ran, those were written by people not God. If you can find me a source that isn't clearly written by humans then I'll believe you.

    Death as a part of nature is His plan and design of things anyway. So if you have no problem with nature causing death then you can't have a problem with God causing death as part of the overall and wider plan of things through nature.
    The difference is nature doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, it just is. If God is how you say, then it DOES have a sense of right and wrong and STILL allows for mass death directly caused by it's design of this planet. I cannot accept that a God would create such a dangerously designed planet in which entire cities can be buried by a volcano or whole communities can be washed away by tsunami. Add to that the completely hostile to life as we know it universe and you're pretty much looking at a universe that clearly isn't for us if it were designed.

    The way the world is going at the moment, she'll be lucky to be alive in 20 years time and when war starts or some terrible catastrophe happens (God Forbid), who will you all go running towards? Who will save you then? Then you'll start thinking maybe there is a God who's wrath you are experiencing as a consequence of your misdeeds.
    OK, first, holy crap thanks for saying my cousin will probably be dead in 20 years, that's really sweet of you! Also, I really won't be running to a fake man in the sky to save me.

    Maybe you don't have the ability express yourself clearly enough for people to understand.
    No I'm being very clear, you just twist what people are saying. Look at the other people who reply to you who say you haven't understood. Are we all terrible at communicating or is it you who lacks understanding?

    Right and look where India is right now. The countries most advanced in the world have been followers of monotheistic religions.
    India has a space program and nuclear weapons. They aren't doing too badly in terms of being advanced!

    OK, how big is it? What caused the big bang? Where did the material inside the big bang come from? Answer me these from science if you can. I don't reject science at all by the way. Science is simply the way God works.
    I've already told you how old the universe is, see you're just not reading. As for the other questions, I've already said we don't know, but that does not mean we should just say "it was God" and then not try and find out any more. We're pushing our scientific knowledge on this subject all the time. It may take a while but we will eventually have a much better understanding of the beginnings of the universe. We may not know it all, but that still doesn't mean we should just fill any gaps in our knowledge with "God did it". Also talking about pre-big bang is difficult as time and space didn't exist before it happened.

    See. Thus proving you have no argument against my proofs which proves that you can never deny the existence of God.
    Sure I can, look - I deny the existence of God.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Many of the things you mentioned are only a result of our own wrongful actions. God has given us free will and told us the way to live a decent proper life otherwise you go to Hell.

    As for opposing religions, again this is the result of man. Originally all religions came from God but man corrupted and changed them therefore God sent new Prophets and new religions.

    AIDS is a disease due to man's own irresponsibilities with regards to sexual practices.

    As for the natural disasters you mentioned, you have to remember it is all part of a larger plan and design. Natural disasters are part of the law of nature. Also it leads to sympathy and humanitarian aid. It leads to the world uniting and helping one another as it should do.

    You have to remember that this world is created in a balance. Good and evil, pain and suffering. Happiness and sadness. One simply cannot exist without the other. If there was only one state - happiness, then it wouldn't really be happiness as you would have no idea what suffering was. It would be boredom. Moreover, where would our incentive be to progress, to develop, to discover and make a better life for ourselves?

    So it's all part of a wider plan and design.
    Your whole argument seems to say that it is rightful for innocent people to get punished for others doing wrong. Or that innocent people should suffer for the good of the world as a whole.
    You justify babies being born with AIDS by saying "AIDS is a disease due to man's own irresponsibilities with regards to sexual practices. "
    You justify the death of whole families in natural disasters because it "it leads to sympathy and humanitarian aid"
    You justify Joseph Fritzl's daughter suffering because "result of our own wrongful actions" or so that she can later feel happy because she has felt sadness.
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    Okay, so from what I see, religion gives people hope in the sense of "We suffer now, but there will be a reason for it later." It gives us strength and a reason to push through hard times.
    But if a person didn't believe in a specific religion, and simply believed the world lives on equilibrium, they would believe that no matter what happened things would get better.
    Likelihood is that they would get the same feedback in life.
    So I don't think it is necessary to say "God has a plan" or "The plan is mean so God couldn't exist", but rather life is life. Only the idea that bad things have happened to you for a reason in the first place would lead to feel like life was terrible and there is no reward. Why should you be rewarded for going through life? Everyone else had done it too.
    This argument is circular - if you believe in cause and effect in every event of your life, then you will ask "Why would God hurt me in this way?"
    However, if you believe that events that happen to you are nothing to do with what has happened in the past, i.e. coincidence, then there is no reason to ask why there is suffering in the world.
    This of course is all in context - if you work hard, you will most likely do well in life. But if your mother dies in a car crash, there is nothing to relate it back to yourself really.
    Humans will always feel the need to ask why, but the universe does, has and always will work beyond our comprehension.
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    (Original post by BananaWhale)
    You're also suggesting that it's okay for God to create murderers, rapists, thieves etc. Again, to 'give us something to live for'. Why would he create evil, sadistic people in order to break the 10 commandments that he has created?

    God is highly contradictory of himself.

    Another question I have is this:
    If God created everything, why would God create evidence which suggests more rational explanations? Why would he create the world in such a way that more and more people disbelieve in him, due to the evidence in which he created? Does this suggest that he doesn't want people to know of his existence?

    And why has he created everything so illogically? :')
    This is why I'm an atheist.

    I don't mean to attack religion here, I'm fine with everyone having their own views and opinions. I just wanted to state a few of the puzzling things which make me an atheist.
    Well God created us and gave us freewill. That means we are able to do what we want. If God didn't give people the choice to murder and steal etc. then we wouldn't have 100% freewill. Think about it, he has given us the ability to do whatever we want. If he didn't give us this choice wouldn't we be complaining?

    Also if you say why has he created everything illogically look at this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sA_R...ure=plpp_video
    everything has been created within one ratio. Pretty logical to me.

    Also if you say you are puzzled about religion, i don't mean to try and convert anybody or anything but watch videos like these
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DYJ...iV_hpMiQKHTWmA

    You find things which make you question your way of thinking. Watch them with an open mind. I converted after watching these types of videos and lectures between islamic scholars and christian ones (i was formerly christian).
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    God creates mysteries to intellectually challenge us, and delve into them
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    (Original post by user1-4)
    Well God created us and gave us freewill. That means we are able to do what we want. If God didn't give people the choice to murder and steal etc. then we wouldn't have 100% freewill. Think about it, he has given us the ability to do whatever we want. If he didn't give us this choice wouldn't we be complaining?
    But if God is all knowledgeable and powerful, then he knows full well that the person he is created is going to do awful things. Why wouldn't he stop them?

    I'm sure that's probably wrong but I don't know much about religion so please explain
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    our puny minds can't comprehend the size of it. It shows God has the upper hand.

    BananaWhale- I think our purpose is not God playing a huge game of chess but rather like setting animals into the free to see what we do and how we choose to use that free will. But then again, is evil nature or nurture? Do people necessarily choose to do evil things. Or are they like Dostoyevsky's Raskolnikov who murder people just to see if they can do it?
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    (Original post by BananaWhale)
    But if God is all knowledgeable and powerful, then he knows full well that the person he is created is going to do awful things. Why wouldn't he stop them?

    I'm sure that's probably wrong but I don't know much about religion so please explain
    Well de doesn't stup us so that we have the choice whether we wish to stop our actions ourselves. If we don't we will be punished in the afterlife. The victim will be compromised. Remember this life is short compared to the never-ending after life. Any compensation for something bad here will be paid back infinite-fold.
    Also remember life is a test. You are not stopped do that you can be judged upon your actions. It is after death that everybody (no matter what religion) fully realises this. People only pray now, so that they don't have to be accountable to God after death.


    Oh yeah, did you watch those videos? Were they helpful? Or should I link you to the more lecture type ones? Remember God chooses who he wants to guide on the right path. If you are to convert (like i did) it mean you are blessed.
    There's a sayng, when you become Muslim you lose friends, but you gain brothers.
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    [QUOTE=gateshipone;37877997]If the Earth had been made for us, then why did we only really evolve into the species we are a few hundred thousand years ago? Why did God waste his time creating dinosaurs?[/QUOTE

    I think the creation of dinosaurs is further evidence to prove that God is all-powerful and omnipotent . It shows that God can go to extremes, being able to create both innocent and the violent. (Have you read this poem 'The Tyger' by William Blake - you'll get a better idea of what I mean) I also believe that if dinosaurs weren't created, some element of this world required to support our very own existence would be lacking. Like I said, it's all in-comprehensible to mankind.

    Are you an atheist/agnostic??
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    (Original post by madaboutmambo)
    I think the creation of dinosaurs is further evidence to prove that God is all-powerful and omnipotent . It shows that God can go to extremes, being able to create both innocent and the violent. (Have you read this poem 'The Tyger' by William Blake - you'll get a better idea of what I mean) I also believe that if dinosaurs weren't created, some element of this world required to support our very own existence would be lacking. Like I said, it's all in-comprehensible to mankind.

    Are you an atheist/agnostic??
    Yeah I'm atheist.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Well if you say that only sentience beings have a purpose, then God would also be purposeful.

    Furthermore, if you were to study the design of nature then you'd see that everything has a purpose in this life. Therefore God is purposeful as He does everything with a purpose. Why did he create water? Why did he create trees? They all serve purposes do they not?



    No. Humans act for a reason, not a purpose. They indulge in vain nonsense half the time which doesn't benefit them at all.



    What is worship? Worship means trying to become like the person you worship, to hold him in high regard. To praise him, to love him, to obey him. This is worship. Don't people 'worship' footballers and celebrities? They follow them, copy them, praise them, desire to become like them. Only God is worthy of worship though as He is the perfect Being, therefore we strive to become as close to him as possible.

    His creation bears testimony to the fact that he is perfect. The very concept of God demands that he must be perfect otherwise He wouldn't be God now would He? Then he has revealed Himself to certain people, Messengers and the like. He has revealed His nature and his attributes which are unlimited and therefore perfect. Choose to believe or not but the proof is in the creation of the universe and diverse forms of life.



    Yes, you have to worship someone or something. What drives you to do things? What makes you do certain acts? Is it for the approval of people? Is it the approval of your parents? Is it to satisfy your own ego? Therefore you worship your own self, or other people whose approval you seek and therefore you try your best to please them. Even though you yourself are not worthy of being worship nor is anyone else since they themselves are flawed.

    Now does it make more sense? What's illogical is that you choose worship of yourself or others despite the fact that you yourself are deeply flawed as are others.

    If God is almighty and perfect, and indeed He is, then He is the only one worthy of worship.
    Why does God have to create things for a purpose?
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    (Original post by user1-4)
    Well de doesn't stup us so that we have the choice whether we wish to stop our actions ourselves. If we don't we will be punished in the afterlife. The victim will be compromised. Remember this life is short compared to the never-ending after life. Any compensation for something bad here will be paid back infinite-fold.
    Also remember life is a test. You are not stopped do that you can be judged upon your actions. It is after death that everybody (no matter what religion) fully realises this. People only pray now, so that they don't have to be accountable to God after death.
    Ok that makes a bit more sense now.

    (Original post by user1-4)

    Oh yeah, did you watch those videos? Were they helpful? Or should I link you to the more lecture type ones? Remember God chooses who he wants to guide on the right path. If you are to convert (like i did) it mean you are blessed.
    I take it the first video was about the Golden Ratio? I find it fascinating and I use it when I'm drawing to make sure my proportions are all correct. I don't know enough about science to explain this fully, I have a few vague theories to explain some of it though.

    And yes, I watched the other video and some others. And it has not changed my beliefs, I'm still an atheist. However, it has certainly showed my that the Qur'an is far less contradictory of itself than the Bible is. The Quran seems to be able to explain things scientifically in a lot of cases, where as the Bible can't.
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    (Original post by BananaWhale)
    I take it the first video was about the Golden Ratio? I find it fascinating and I use it when I'm drawing to make sure my proportions are all correct. I don't know enough about science to explain this fully, I have a few vague theories to explain some of it though.

    And yes, I watched the other video and some others. And it has not changed my beliefs, I'm still an atheist. However, it has certainly showed my that the Qur'an is far less contradictory of itself than the Bible is. The Quran seems to be able to explain things scientifically in a lot of cases, where as the Bible can't.
    Yeah the first video was of the golden ratio.
    I understand it hasn't changed your beliefs but if you ever want to just search for it on youtube and you'll find out how. The main thing which converted me was when i read in the quran that the male is the one that affects the gender of the child. I know this to be a recent discovery (in terms of males have XY chromosomes and females only have XX - so female gives one X and male gives either X or Y) and I couldn't help but think the Quran must have been sent by God.

    There are also videos like these
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPLyDtdaTMg
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    Ha that's a strange concept, a tad anthropocentric mind though.
    Why not just go nuts for the hell of it? Why doesn't god just have a heart to heart chat with us about the whole set up?

    AND why have us die young (comparatively) so that we don't learn well from our accumulated wisdom from his sadistic lessons?
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    The world is too big for one man to create

    And if he existed why would he bother to create the worst atrocities imaginable or humans who murder, rape, steal, or commit hate crimes etc.

    And I dislike this BS about 'it makes us stronger people' because surely if you were to create a world, you'd create one where everyone was nice to each other and didn't know what lying, murdering was etc.

    Old argument I know
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    (Original post by gateshipone)
    Yeah I'm atheist.
    No worries I'll pray for you. I used to be an atheist until recently, when I went through a religious experience.
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    (Original post by RowingGoose)
    The world is too big for one man to create

    And if he existed why would he bother to create the worst atrocities imaginable or humans who murder, rape, steal, or commit hate crimes etc.

    And I dislike this BS about 'it makes us stronger people' because surely if you were to create a world, you'd create one where everyone was nice to each other and didn't know what lying, murdering was etc.

    Old argument I know
    God is no man, but a force.

    The existence of evil and suffering in the world may seem evidence to believe that God does not exist, however, there's a beautiful story in the bible that explains why there is evil and suffering in the world:

    THE STORY OF JOB: To brief it out for you: Job is a a loving father with many children with all the possible riches one can hope to have, and more importantly a strong believer of god. When satan asks god if he could put job to the test, god allows him to do so (without hurting job though). As a result satan kills job's children, takes away his land, his sheep/goats are all destroyed and he is left with a serious skin condition. Meanwhile job's friends tell him that he must have done something wrong to face a serious situation as such and ask him to repent. Though job is persistent that he has had strong faith in god at all times, he eventually gives up all hope and curses god. Finally god speaks to job and tells him that it is not for you/man to ask why there is suffering, rather to live with it.

    Suffering is an inevitable part of human life that we must all face. Some people are affected more than others; whether it is through natural disasters, genocide, war, persecution, natural diseases etc... Christians believe that while there is suffering in this world, god has deliberately added this, to make the rest more compassionate, and loving individuals much like his son, jesus christ. That in fact is the reason for our existence: To go to heaven. And in order to do so, we must treat others the way we would like to be treated ourselves (one of the two great commandments) and also follow the example of religious leaders, that involve caring for those who are suffering.

    I believe that the existence of suffering is rather a test for the rest of us, enabling god to decide those who are good and bad, to set aside those who should enter heaven and hell. Moreover, there is evidence in the bible to prove that individuals who are already suffering are ensured a good, if not an eternal life with god in heaven.

    Suffering is all part of God's plan.

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