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Ex muslim atheists, have you ever seen them..

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    OK, let's get this right

    go to e.g. a basic Hanafi fiqh manual, such as http://fiqhlessons.blogspot.com/2005...my-riddah.html

    The manual says : "Committing Kufr causes one to be a non-Muslim (kaafir), even if one was previously a Muslim. Kufr after being Muslim is called riddah (apostasy)".

    And this is e.g. some of what constitutes "kufr", and will therefore cause "riddah"

    - Saying or believing that any of Allah's attributes has a beginning, is kufr, because this would mean that He is part creator and part brought into existence.

    -Saying or believing that Allah is in a place or location is kufr, because place has a beginning, and therefore everything in it must also have a beginning. Allah existed before place and He still exists without it. Moreover, Allah said that the Jews committed kufr by their worship of the gold calf, pointing out that it is a body.

    -Saying or believing that God is united with His creation, or physically enters created things, such as the sky or a body is kufr.

    -It is kufr to say or believe that Allah changes, because changes are series of events and all events have a beginning."

    Treason my eye: these are simply opinions that Christians call "heresies", and which luckily Christians do not persecute or punish in any way in any State anymore.

    And here you have an overview of what the traditional Islamic fiqh on punishment for riddah/irtitaad (apostasy) says http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...39247bb10735ac

    Bishy, note the basic Hanafi rule, from Al-Hidaya, the classic manual of Hanafi fiqh by Imam Burhan al-Din al-Marghinani

    "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya)

    Where do you see any talk about "treason" ?

    Of course you have also many Muslims, and even scholars, who dissent with these views : have a look e.g. here http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com...out-islam.html

    these courageous Muslims who oppose the death penalty for apostasy are however widely accused of being "modernists" "innovators" and even marginal apostates themselves

    Best
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    Yes there are. I was listening to a talk yesterday about individualism as a foundation of the West whereas Islam advocates a whole different society akin to communitarianism.

    For example, he was talking about the right of viewing porn being unbalanced by the right of a woman not to be viewing in that way.
    You have just proven my point. There is essentially no difference. Islam sets out laws according to what is best for the people, and if that is 'akin to communitarianism' so be it. The result is, the laws differ from the West because the West promotes different values than to Islam. This of course leads to different crimes and punishments. Why should Islam promote the same values as the West?
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    You don't have to have personally experienced Islam to criticise it, or even know anything about the nature of the faith specifically. The core of the problem is the level of irrationality.

    Sam Harris said it best. Can't recall the exact quote but his point is basically this. We should all at the very least, be intellectually honest enough to stop pretending we know for certain things which that cannot possibly be known with any degree of certainty.
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    (Original post by Playa10)
    You have just proven my point. There is essentially no difference. Islam sets out laws according to what is best for the people, and if that is 'akin to communitarianism' so be it. The result is, the laws differ from the West because the West promotes different values than to Islam. This of course leads to different crimes and punishments.
    Agree.


    Why should Islam promote the same values as the West?
    I agree with you, Islam shouldn't because those values ignore social problems.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    so, what ? if Christians and Jews still considered that apostasy carries the death penalty, it would be barbaric also for them (however, they have luckily abandoned that view)

    few people know also that no "Western" State still has the death penalty for treason on the statute books
    Yes many christians have abandoned it. Now if you may kindly tell me how many Muslims have been given the death penalty in the UK for leaving Islam?

    And Yes, treason is technically punishable by death here in the UK.
    Whats that? No Western state has the death penalty for treason?
    Ahem -Bradley Manning-? Currently being tried is a Military US court for leaking confidential information to Wikileaks? If guilty, he could be given the death sentence.
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    (Original post by NuckingFut)
    Yes many christians have abandoned it. Now if you may kindly tell me how many Muslims have been given the death penalty in the UK for leaving Islam?

    And Yes, treason is technically punishable by death here in the UK.
    it isn't

    "The penalty for treason was changed from death to a maximum of imprisonment for life in 1998 under the Crime And Disorder Act.[25] Before 1998, the death penalty was mandatory, subject to the royal prerogative of mercy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_Kingdom
    Whats that? No Western state has the death penalty for treason?
    Ahem -Bradley Manning-? Currently being tried is a Military US court for leaking confidential information to Wikileaks? If guilty, he could be given the death sentence.
    yes, in the case of the US my post is not correct. It should be read as "no one was ever executed for treason against the US". John Brown (the glory, glory allelujah guy) was the only person ever to be executed for treason in the US, but for treason against the Commonwealth of Virginia, not the US.

    However, I think that in keeping the death penalty for treason on the statute book, the US are quite isolated in the West. Have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason..._jurisdictions

    It is interesting however to check the definition of treason : in the US, treason means waging war against the US or giving assistance to the enemy. John Brown, of course, led an armed attack on an arms depot at Harper's Ferry. He didn't just publicly speak out against slavery...
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    (Original post by NuckingFut)
    Yes many christians have abandoned it. Now if you may kindly tell me how many Muslims have been given the death penalty in the UK for leaving Islam?

    And Yes, treason is technically punishable by death here in the UK.
    Whats that? No Western state has the death penalty for treason?
    Ahem -Bradley Manning-? Currently being tried is a Military US court for leaking confidential information to Wikileaks? If guilty, he could be given the death sentence.
    You really are clueless, the death penalty for treason was scrapped in 1998, 12 years ago.
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)

    Before the user Perserveranze attempts a rebuttal, may I remind him that his avatar features a picture of a masked Islamic man with a handgun...
    Perseveranze is some sort of Islamic internet fighter. He is present on practically all internet forums I have ever consulted (quite a few), always copy-pasting the same bits and pieces of "Islamic" proselytism, in particular his multi-coloured, multi-fonted quotes by non-Muslims explaining how Islam is the best thing since sliced bread ...

    it's nice to see such committed individuals, who can afford to sacrifice so much time to spreading the obvious, incontrovertible "truth"
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Perseveranze is some sort of Islamic internet fighter. He is present on practically all internet forums I have ever consulted (quite a few), always copy-pasting the same bits and pieces of "Islamic" proselytism, in particular his multi-coloured, multi-fonted quotes by non-Muslims explaining how Islam is the best thing since sliced bread ...

    it's nice to see such committed individuals, who can afford to sacrifice so much time to spreading the obvious, incontrovertible "truth"


    To me it smacks of desperation, that some people are so desperate for validation they will copy and paste biased islamic drivel and propaganda from websites simply to give their views the appearance of added weight, when really it just looks to everyone else like a tantruming child that cant eloquently get its point to stick. As if its something valuable he is achieving :teehee:
    still, kids do grow out of these moody periods -eventually!
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    (Original post by lancelot)
    To me it smacks of desperation, that some people are so desperate for validation they will copy and paste biased islamic drivel and propaganda from websites simply to give their views the appearance of added weight, when really it just looks to everyone else like a tantruming child that cant eloquently get its point to stick. As if its something valuable he is achieving :teehee:
    still, kids do grow out of these moody periods -eventually!
    I wouldn't take mariachi seriously, he's just butthurt he can't debate against me in defaming Islam.

    Every single time he just refers to adhomein attacks.
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    The reason you probably don't find quite so many vocal ex-muslim atheists is because those who leave Islam, under Sharia law, are to be put to death for the crime of apostasy. While you can leave most Christian sects in relative safety, and even follow up with a career in criticizing religion, to do so from Islam would be a huge threat to one's personal safety. There is a violent, barbaric and backward side to this religion that does not deserve one ounce of tolerance in modern society.

    Before the user Perserveranze attempts a rebuttal, may I remind him that his avatar features a picture of a masked Islamic man with a handgun...
    1. No "apostate" has been executed in over 30 years.

    2. Looking at secular countries like Turkey, it has a majority Muslim population that is steady and growing, "Atheism" isn't taking over there, despite the fact people are under no pressure. In fact, something that's worrying the "secular elites" is the growth of conservative Islam there.

    3. In the UK and western countries, there is no pressure, people have "freedom of religion" as you say. Yet, apostasy in Islam is still a rarity, with far more entering the religion than those leaving.

    4. Most apostates are Iranians who have a Shia background. (so typical lol)

    5. There are fake apostates (there's many websites dedicated to exposing them http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/) and the majority are clueless about their "ex" religion in the first place.

    And finally, as a means to further expose your narrow minded thinking, a masked man with a hand gun does not equal = Terrorist or whatever evil connotations your quick to assume.


    People are delluded who claim there's "loads of ex-muslims but they're just in hiding" lmao.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    c history has. And this is down to their deviant beliefs and other weird practices.
    This is the Iranian regime you claimed to worship before? It's an Islamic regime so that's not saying much is it?
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    (Original post by I Persia I)
    This is the Iranian regime you claimed to worship before? It's an Islamic regime so that's not saying much is it?
    It's more of a case of, my enemies enemy is my friend. And no, it's not an "Islamic regime" lol.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    It's more of a case of, my enemies enemy is my friend. And no, it's not an "Islamic regime" lol.
    :rofl: :rofl: Prepare for the Sunni invasion of Iran. You psycho.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    I wouldn't take mariachi seriously, he's just butthurt he can't debate against me in defaming Islam.

    Every single time he just refers to adhomein attacks.
    (and yet another one of Persy's victory dances... the poor guy doesn't realize that self-attributed laurels have little credibility)

    Perseveranze, as to "ad hominem", I called you a tireless "Islamic internet fighter".

    You should be flattered.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    1. No "apostate" has been executed in over 30 years.
    Really? then how do you respond to this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jX3YWN81Y
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    1. No "apostate" has been executed in over 30 years.
    (Original post by kenni12)
    Really? then how do you respond to this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jX3YWN81Y
    Perseveranze is wrong.
    E.g. "On 3 September 1992 Sadiq 'Abdul-Karim Malallah was publicly beheaded in Al-Qatif in Saudi Arabia's Eastern Province after being convicted of apostasy and blasphemy"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...n_Saudi_Arabia

    I am sure that by searching, you would find other examples (my guess would be Sudan or Mauritania)

    However, literally thousands were executed -hanged- for apostasy in Iran by the Khomeini regime in the second half of 1988 (apostasy was the typical accusation levied against "leftists")

    But, of course, that is a Shiah affair ...
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    4. Most apostates are Iranians who have a Shia background. (so typical lol)
    .
    I don't know if this is actually true (could be). However pushing Iranians away from Islam is one of the few good things to happen as a by-product of the Islamic revolution.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    you are just stating your personal opinion as if it were established fact

    the truth is, there is in Islamic fiqh (jurisprudence) any number of opinions represented on what exactly constitutes riddah (apostatsy) and on how it should be punished

    to start with, since you follow the Hanafi fiqh, you should know that the prevalent view is that the female apostate should not be executed, but imprisoned and flogged three times a day until she spontaneously returns to Islam

    the male apostate, however, should be executed

    as to what exactly constitutes "riddah" (apostasy), whether "extreme" or "simple" etc you have many opinions

    a discussion such as this one will give you an idea of the total confusion and chaos prevailing on this issue
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...postate-s-life
    Why don't we look at what the Quran says about apostasy:

    86.How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

    87. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind;-

    88. In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

    89. Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    (Quran 86-89): This suggests that nothing in the Quran indicates that an apostate should be put to death. Instead the punishment is reserved for the Hereafter by Allah alone.


    Further, before sentencing an apostate to death, conditions have to be satisfied namely that it can only be done under a TRUE Islamic government which is not in existence at the moment.

    Then, we look at whether it was a minor apostasy (just leaving Islam) or major (with the accompaniment of Murder or treason) and based on that the sentence is given.

    After that, there are several safeguards such as in the Hanafi fiqh, if the apostate performs 5 prayers when requested, he should be allowed to go free. This ruling could be found here under "Note 29".
Updated: October 30, 2012
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