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Islam a "genetic" problem?

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    (Original post by Bukhatir)
    Islam is one of the largest and most popular religions in the world today. Believers in Islam, known as Muslims, can be found all over the globe and the religion has a long and rich history. This Entry deals with the origin and early spread of the religion.

    Muhammad (saw) is often referred to as the founder of Islam. He started by preaching, converted people to the religion, and organised an Islamic army. Muslims believe that there is one all-powerful God (Allah) and that Muhammad was his last prophet; Allah sent down various prophets (including Jesus) but Muhammad was the final one; Muslims have a holy book, called the Qur'an, which they believe is the word of Allah, as dictated to Muhammad.

    Muslim dates and Christian dates2 are different. Muslims started their year from the Christian year 622AD. This was the year when Muhammad went from Mecca to Medina - there's more about that later. The typical Christian dates have been used throughout this Entry. Also, to make things even more confusing, many of the cities and countries have changed their names and locations since Muhammad was around.

    A Bit of Background Information on Muhammad

    Although we have some knowledge of Muhammad today, due to remaining historical records, we are not sure how accurate the records are. Muslims obviously saw Muhammad as a prophet, and may have altered their descriptions of him to fit this.

    However, it is generally accepted that Muhammad was born in Mecca, in 570AD or thereabouts. His family was definitely not rich, but was not overly poor. Muhammad was orphaned at the age of six and was sent to live with relatives. He grew up to become a dealer and married a widow, called Khadija, who was a lot older than he was.

    When Muhammad was about 40 years old, he went alone to pray in a cave on Mount Hira (just outside Mecca). There he was visited by some sort of supernatural being, who he later referred to as the Angel Gabriel, who dictated various sacred 'texts' that he had to learn. Muhammad claimed that these visitations continued until his death (about twenty years later). The 'texts' he learnt make up the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an.

    Muhammad felt that as a prophet of Allah (God) he must transmit Allah's messages to the people. He began preaching throughout Mecca. His wife, other relatives, and a good friend called Abu Bakr became the first converts to the new religion. It is said that Allah called the religion 'Islam' which means something like 'submission to the will of God'. Muhammad began gathering more and more followers, mostly young people.

    A Bit of Background Information on the Geographic Area

    Muhammad lived in an area called Arabia, which was inhabited by various tribal groups. Muhammad was part of one of these tribes (his tribe was named Qu'raysh), and lived in Mecca. Mecca was a very active trade city at that time, and there were many trade routes between Mecca and other cities. The fact that Mecca was an active city with easily accessible routes to many places probably helped the spread of Islam.

    Near Arabia was the Persian Empire (to the north-east) and the Byzantine Empire (to the north-west). Christians and Jews lived in the area, and it is thought that Muhammad carefully studied both religions. Generally the Arabian tribal groups worshiped many gods, but did have one sort of High God, who they called Allah. They worshiped their various gods around a large black stone, called the Kabah. The Kabah is now very holy and belongs to Muslims today, but of course they only worship the one god. This god is thought to be the same one that the Christians and Jews worship. Indeed, it is thought that before Muhammad arrived, Christians and Jews had claimed that the Arabs had been left out of the divine plan, as they did not have their own prophet. When Muhammad arrived, all Arabs were glad they finally had a prophet of their own. In the Qur'an it states that Muhammad is the last (and greatest) prophet, which would have stopped others from coming along and saying 'Hello! I'm a prophet too!'

    The Start of Islam

    Muhammad preached his new religion throughout Mecca with his friends and family as the first converts. He actually waited for a couple of years after his first vision before he started preaching. Unfortunately, his preaching was not popular with the ruling classes of the city, mainly because it promoted monotheism (belief in one god). Muhammad was offered bribes to discontinue preaching, as well as being threatened, and those who converted were publicly tortured or placed under house arrest. There were also trade sanctions placed against them. In 622AD, soldiers were sent to arrest or murder Muhammad in Mecca, but he managed to flee with Abu Bakr. They hid in caves, with other disciples bringing supplies for them. Eventually, a group left to go to a nearby city Yathrib (which is now called Medina). Yathrib's ruling classes had shown an interest in Muhammad and his work, and were keen in having a sort of unifying force in their city, due to their large number of various divided tribes, including some Jewish ones. The flight to Medina is so important to Muslim people that they have their own special word for it - hegira - and started dating their years from then.

    Upon arriving in Yathrib, Muhammad was welcomed by the locals - a far cry from Mecca, where he had been called an enemy of the people. Shortly after he had arrived, he built his first mosque (the Islamic place of worship). Over the next ten years many people in Yathrib were interested in what Muhammad had to say, and converted to Islam. He became both the spiritual and political leader of the city. Unfortunately, some nearby tribes were not so enthusiastic about the faith, and were engaged in war with Muhammad and his supporters for almost the whole time.

    Many travelling Muslims, however, were the subject of a lot of raids perpetrated by Meccans. Although many of these raids may simply have been to get resources - and not a specific religious slur - Muslims were keen on revenge, and Muhammad responded by authorising attacks on Meccans in return. These small raids escalated to armed conflicts. Most of them were won by the Muslims. However, after the battles between the Muslims and the Meccans, a peace treaty was forged in 628. At this time, Muhammad was seen as the most powerful man in Arabia. Due to this, many more Arabian tribes were keen to join the faith. Two years after the peace treaty was made, it was violated by the Meccans. The Muslims responded by marching their huge army along to Mecca. The Meccans could tell immediately that they would be defeated, so they opened their doors voluntarily and did not try to fight. Muhammad finally had control of Mecca. Many people in Mecca saw their defeat as a sign of Muhammad's spiritual power, and believed it was their destiny to convert to Islam.

    In conclusion, Muhammad had a paramount role in the foundation of the Islamic religion, and the faith was so successful in its early expansion because, like any successful religion, it provided a clear code of behaviour that was suitable to the time of its foundation. Once the religion had people willing to fight for its cause, it was able to expand. The religion provided unity and support. It was simple, easy to understand and conversion was straightforward. Islam is a huge world religion today, but it would not have been nearly as successful without Muhammad surviving to play a crucial role in the first years of expansion.

    N/B-Our beloved Prophet (saw)was born in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca, he was orphaned lost his mother and father (may Allah forgive them :emo:plz Thee Merciful)at an early age and brought up under the care of his uncle Abu Talib. He later worked mostly as a merchant, as well as a shepherd, and was first married by age 25
    Thats one possible version of mohammeds story. The other was he got bored of being a middle aged shepherd and wrote a book telling the arabs how to live, much like the books written telling the jews and christians how to live a few years earlier. he converted more and more people, got an army together and then spent the rest of his life fighting wars with his neighbours.
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    (Original post by Bishy786)
    But the question is one of whether Prophet Muhammad himself ingratiated himself within an OFFENSIVE conquest. It is true that conquest in most conversations refer to the one who had actually instigated the conflict in the first place but conquest can also refer to the actual conquering of an offensive army or place.
    Offensive action can also be in defence of something. Though since this was a side point I will probably concede this point.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Exactly. So how would one define morality or the limits to morality? I guess we should just leave the slavery point alone as it will go off on tangents because we are at odds with each other on the subject of morality.
    I accept morality is subjective. I wouldn't be able to take any other position. There are standards of morality we can take though. Murder and slavery are examples of moral positions the vast majority would see as immoral. Although this could be seen as argumentum ad populum there is justification for the position.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    I was merely showing you that the whole reason a RANSOM was asked for is "to atone for" the transgressions caused to the other warring party.
    What you would need to demonstrate is the captives would have been released regardless of the 'ransom' being paid. If you can't do that your point cannot stand.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    Exactly. Slavery works on the same basis. When I use the word "slaves", it conjurers up images of whipping and beatings which were simply not representative of the Arabian society when Islamic rule was firmly established. A better word to use here is "servant".
    I don't function on those images. It clouds the issue. I simple say its one person owning another person. Don't need to add additional stipulations to make that anything else. You can't use servant because this would mean the person could leave whenever they wanted and recieved payment.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    In regards to the point in hand, a person is made a slave if he has transgressed against a nation. eg: by participating in a losing war. This slave can earn his freedom by working diligently and hoping that his master would be merciful and free him or he could ask to be ransomed. If he is NOT freed or ransomed, then and ONLY then, is he ENSLAVED.
    The war part here is irrelevant. The fact the slave has to 'earn their freedom' means they are slaves. They are owned by the master and need either mercy on the part of their 'master' or be effectively sold to someone else (once again you would need to demonstrate these people would have been released regardless of payment to avoid this point). They are by definition slaves long before they get to your conclusion.

    (Original post by Bishy786)
    This is similar to a person who has transgressed against the state. He can either go to prison which would not be a benefit to anyone, he can be fined (ransomed) or he can do community service work (enslaved by the state). The fundamental principle here is that a person who has done something "wrong" should be punished.
    At no point is he owned by another person. The person is being punished for a crime and will be released once the prison term has been served. This doesn't require a 'master' to give mercy. A fine and ransom are very different things entirely.

    Just to follow the comparison. A person in times of war captured is held. This captive is forced to work as a slave unless their master releases them or they are ransomed off. If nither of these events happens they are screwed. If they are released after the war we would have no issue, but that isn't the case.

    In a prison system a person is being punished for a crime (lets not forget going to war is not a crime). The person will be released after a period of time regardless of the state of affairs.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Thats one possible version of mohammeds story. The other was he got bored of being a middle aged shepherd and wrote a book telling the arabs how to live, much like the books written telling the jews and christians how to live a few years earlier. he converted more and more people, got an army together and then spent the rest of his life fighting wars with his neighbours.
    The "neighbours" should have learnt not to persecute Muslims then.
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    Well, I'm sure that genetics has some bearing on gullibility....
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    (Original post by Study)
    The "neighbours" should have learnt not to persecute Muslims then.
    i dont buy the story that all his neighbours presecuted him. We know that mohammed got into conflict with everyone- from jews to christians to polyeithists to other arabs and various neighbouring tribes and bedouin. In the history of persecuted groups, very few ended up collecting their own substantial army and then wiping out all their neighbours.

    So your suggesstion is highly unrealisitic.
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    I do not like any dogmatic religious beliefs. "Belief is the death of intelligence". Intelligence is the capacity to receive, decode and transmit information efficiently. Stupidity is blockage of this process at any point. Bigotry, ideologies etc. block the ability to receive; robotic reality-tunnels block the ability to decode or integrate new signals; censorship blocks transmission.

    Forget religion, study quantum physics instead!! There is no "Out There" Out There. The quantum physicist David Bohm reckoned that the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram (his Implicate and Explicate Order and the Holomovement theories). The world of coffee cups, mountain vistas, elm trees and table lamps might not even exist. It is possible that what is "out there" is really a vast, resonating symphony of wave forms, a "frequency domain" that is transformed into the world as we know it only AFTER it enters our brain. The human brain is the "observer" that "collapses" the wave function (also known as the "double slit" experiment in quantum physics). Did Einstein himself, not say, that "reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one"

    Don't believe anything you read or see, as it is all an illusion. Even this post!!!

    As they say, science is questions that may never be answered, but religion is answers that can never be questioned!!!
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    (Original post by Celticbabe)
    I do not like any dogmatic religious beliefs. "Belief is the death of intelligence". Intelligence is the capacity to receive, decode and transmit information efficiently. Stupidity is blockage of this process at any point. Bigotry, ideologies etc. block the ability to receive; robotic reality-tunnels block the ability to decode or integrate new signals; censorship blocks transmission.

    Forget religion, study quantum physics instead!! There is no "Out There" Out There. The quantum physicist David Bohm reckoned that the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram (his Implicate and Explicate Order and the Holomovement theories). The world of coffee cups, mountain vistas, elm trees and table lamps might not even exist. It is possible that what is "out there" is really a vast, resonating symphony of wave forms, a "frequency domain" that is transformed into the world as we know it only AFTER it enters our brain. The human brain is the "observer" that "collapses" the wave function (also known as the "double slit" experiment in quantum physics). Did Einstein himself, not say, that "reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one"

    Don't believe anything you read or see, as it is all an illusion. Even this post!!!

    As they say, science is questions that may never be answered, but religion is answers that can never be questioned!!!
    Alot of things in this world exist while they can't be observed by human beings . Human beings can't imagine the shape of an eleven dimensional spacetime but it may be real . string theory for example predicts a family of exotic unimaginable structures such as orbifolds , conifolds etc which we do not know much about .Religions teach people to believe in things they can't see or imagine like god , angels etc . A lot of the verses in the quran invite its readers to think about the wonders of creation for example a verse says "Travel through the land and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah , over all things, is competent" Surat Al-ankabut
    Islam urges its followers to seek knowledge . A lot of Verses and Hadiths say so . It does not eliminate logic . For example a Hadith says "seeking knowledge is obligatory on every muslim " another hadith says " seek knowledge even if in china " etc .
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    (Original post by quark000)
    Alot of things in this world exist while they can't be observed by human beings . Human beings can't imagine the shape of an eleven dimensional spacetime but it may be real . string theory for example predicts a family of exotic unimaginable structures such as orbifolds , conifolds etc which we do not know much about .Religions teach people to believe in things they can't see or imagine like god , angels etc . A lot of the verses in the quran invite its readers to think about the wonders of creation for example a verse says "Travel through the land and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah , over all things, is competent" Surat Al-ankabut
    Islam urges its followers to seek knowledge . A lot of Verses and Hadiths say so . It does not eliminate logic . For example a Hadith says "seeking knowledge is obligatory on every muslim " another hadith says " seek knowledge even if in china " etc .
    the china "hadith" is incorrect. its not a real hadith, only a famous saying...
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    (Original post by Celticbabe)
    I do not like any dogmatic religious beliefs. "Belief is the death of intelligence". Intelligence is the capacity to receive, decode and transmit information efficiently. Stupidity is blockage of this process at any point. Bigotry, ideologies etc. block the ability to receive; robotic reality-tunnels block the ability to decode or integrate new signals; censorship blocks transmission.

    Forget religion, study quantum physics instead!! There is no "Out There" Out There. The quantum physicist David Bohm reckoned that the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram (his Implicate and Explicate Order and the Holomovement theories). The world of coffee cups, mountain vistas, elm trees and table lamps might not even exist. It is possible that what is "out there" is really a vast, resonating symphony of wave forms, a "frequency domain" that is transformed into the world as we know it only AFTER it enters our brain. The human brain is the "observer" that "collapses" the wave function (also known as the "double slit" experiment in quantum physics). Did Einstein himself, not say, that "reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one"

    Don't believe anything you read or see, as it is all an illusion. Even this post!!!

    As they say, science is questions that may never be answered, but religion is answers that can never be questioned!!!
    That is what Islam says, that this world as we know it, is just a temporary illusion to test which souls deserve to go to heaven or hell... Christianity says exact same thing, so does judaism and many other religions....And all of these religions stated this out before the scientific community would consider such things to be possible..
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    That is what Islam says, that this world as we know it, is just a temporary illusion to test which souls deserve to go to heaven or hell... Christianity says exact same thing, so does judaism and many other religions....And all of these religions stated this out before the scientific community would consider such things to be possible..
    Heaven/Hell is dualistic dogma. I am a "non-dualist" thinker (Quantum Entanglement springs to mind!!). As a human race, we have never grasped the idea of non-dualistic thought. If we had there would be no wars, no bigotry, homophobia, racism, oppression or sexism. It's not "Us vs Them", but WE and that in itself promotes love, justice, empathy, compassion and equality.
    I very much doubt a Hell because it sort of makes a bad joke of life. Who created Hell? Presumably God, or the Devil did it with God's permission and supervision. I don't believe in that kind of God, or that kind of Devil. Who's in Hell anyway?. The Universe has so many, as Carl Sagan says "billions and billions" of galaxies with "billions and billions" of star systems, most of which have planets with all sorts of life forms. Why would God (presumably there is some sort of God behind all of this) pick us out of the whole Universe and decide that if it didn't like our behaviour it's going to torture us for an infinite number of years ? I can't believe that. I mean, the ordinary sadists get tired after a certain period of time and have to rest. The idea of a Divinity so sadistic that it can go on for an infinite number of years torturing creatures from one planet is obviously a delusion of some kind of a paranoid and unbalanced individual.There's still a lot of nuts around and they start religions. People who get unbalanced in certain ways get followers who believe in their paranormal visions, but I don't. If you left it up to me, I can't think of anybody I would want to put in hell. There are some people I would put in prison for life because they are too dangerous to be allowed to wander loose, but I wouldn't put them in Hell for an infinite number of years. That's unbelievably sadistic!
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    (Original post by Celticbabe)
    Heaven/Hell is dualistic dogma. I am a "non-dualist" thinker (Quantum Entanglement springs to mind!!). As a human race, we have never grasped the idea of non-dualistic thought. If we had there would be no wars, no bigotry, homophobia, racism, oppression or sexism. It's not "Us vs Them", but WE and that in itself promotes love, justice, empathy, compassion and equality.
    I very much doubt a Hell because it sort of makes a bad joke of life. Who created Hell? Presumably God, or the Devil did it with God's permission and supervision. I don't believe in that kind of God, or that kind of Devil. Who's in Hell anyway?. The Universe has so many, as Carl Sagan says "billions and billions" of galaxies with "billions and billions" of star systems, most of which have planets with all sorts of life forms. Why would God (presumably there is some sort of God behind all of this) pick us out of the whole Universe and decide that if it didn't like our behaviour it's going to torture us for an infinite number of years ? I can't believe that. I mean, the ordinary sadists get tired after a certain period of time and have to rest. The idea of a Divinity so sadistic that it can go on for an infinite number of years torturing creatures from one planet is obviously a delusion of some kind of a paranoid and unbalanced individual.There's still a lot of nuts around and they start religions. People who get unbalanced in certain ways get followers who believe in their paranormal visions, but I don't. If you left it up to me, I can't think of anybody I would want to put in hell. There are some people I would put in prison for life because they are too dangerous to be allowed to wander loose, but I wouldn't put them in Hell for an infinite number of years. That's unbelievably sadistic!
    this concept of justice is not limited to humans only, Islam tells that all creatures will be judged and God will decide what is to be done to them. The concept is that God created everything , including what we know about and also what we dont know about. So if you believe He created all that, its reasonable to believe He can destroy that as well.

    The story behind how we are in this world and what our purpose is , in Islam is :

    God creates man as the most superior creation and commands all the angels to bow after man. Satan disobeys and sort of challenges God. God sends man to earth for a test for a limited time. Man now has free will. Satan is also free to interfere and get man to follow his way (or disobey God). God sends messengers to test mankind. Now when this time period is over, God will destroy the earth and put an end to mankind (known as "the apocalypse", "day of judgement" etc in Christianity, similar words in Islam as well.). After that they will be judged and put into heaven or hell according to their deeds. If they followed satan, they go to hell. If they followed God's religion, they go to heaven.

    You dont have to believe in this, im just telling you what Islam tells. You can believe if you want, im not forcing u to do anything.

    It sounds "sad" to you somehow. But thats only cuz you have disobeyed God so much. But then again, the good news for such people is that if they come to God , all their sins will be turned into good deeds. Considering that, its pretty easy to avoid hell anyways...All you have to do is believe in God, then pray, do charity etc....Some things which non-believers enjoy are forbidden. these are minor things but even science says these things are harmful for the body. So its not really that sad after all for those who DO obey God.
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    this concept of justice is not limited to humans only, Islam tells that all creatures will be judged and God will decide what is to be done to them. The concept is that God created everything , including what we know about and also what we dont know about. So if you believe He created all that, its reasonable to believe He can destroy that as well.

    The story behind how we are in this world and what our purpose is , in Islam is :

    God creates man as the most superior creation and commands all the angels to bow after man. Satan disobeys and sort of challenges God. God sends man to earth for a test for a limited time. Man now has free will. Satan is also free to interfere and get man to follow his way (or disobey God). God sends messengers to test mankind. Now when this time period is over, God will destroy the earth and put an end to mankind (known as "the apocalypse", "day of judgement" etc in Christianity, similar words in Islam as well.). After that they will be judged and put into heaven or hell according to their deeds. If they followed satan, they go to hell. If they followed Gligion, they go to heaven.

    You dont have to believe in this, im just telling you what Islam tells. You can believe if you want, im not forcing u to do anything.

    It sounds "sad" to you somehow. But thats only cuz you have disobeyed God so much. But then again, the good news for such people is that if they come to God , all their sins will be turned into good deeds. Considering that, its pretty easy to avoid hell anyways...All you have to do is believe in God, then pray, do charity etc....Some things which non-believers enjoy are forbidden. these are minor things but even science says these things are harmful for the body. So its not really that sad after all for those who DO obey God.
    I have already made my point about belief systems. For the last time, in case you didn't get it before: "Beliefs are mental constructs, ideas about what is and not what is. They are products of conditioning and have nothing to do with clear seeing, seeing without the overlay of thoughts and preconceived notions about reality. Ultimately. if one wants true freedom, one needs to leave the realm of beliefs and enter into the present with a clear mind, free of conditioning"

    All the Abrahamic religions are fear based, misogynistic and were "created by men for men". The fact that woman gave birth was enough to frighten those in power since they had no scientific explanation for it, hence they created religion to control women, for procreation was not in their control !!!!!!

    My leanings are more towards philosophical Taoism which is not a religion. Therefore my God is formless. magnificent and above all remorseless, for Perfection requires nothing to sustain it, hence no need for worship (which is fear based), damnation (no sin, heaven/hell, judgment), alms and above all guilt. So who are you to say I do not know God or have disobeyed God because my version of God is different from yours. ( By the way, Satan or the devil comes from the root sanskrit word "deva" or Divine. In otherwords it is the shadow side of the Divine, like heads and tails on the one coin. The ying/yang of Taoism).

    Imagine the following. Which could be plausable and is the belief of most New Agers, whom I consider to be more spiritually advanced than most as they are capable of thinking outside the box. (Refer to "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch which is the New Agers Bible, of sorts. In his own words, this is how "He" (Neale or the "higher" self Neale?) describes this manifest/unmanifest duality).....

    In the beginning, that which IS (the unmanifest God) is all there was, and there was nothing else. Yet ALL THAT IS could not know itself- because ALL THAT IS is all there was and there was NOTHING ELSE. And so, ALL THAT IS.......WAS NOT. This is the great IS/NOT IS to which mystics have referred from the beginning of time. Now ALL THAT IS knew it was all there was- but this was not enough, for it could only know its utter magnificence CONCEPTUALLY, not EXPERIENTIALLY. Yet the experience of itself is that for which it longed, for it wanted to know what it felt like to be so magnificent. Still, this was impossible, because the very term "magnificent" is a relative term. ALL THAT IS could not know what it felt like to be magnificent unless "that which IS NOT" showed up. And so ALL THAT IS divided itself- becoming, in one glorious moment, That which is THIS and that which is THAT. For the first time THIS and THAT existed quite apart from each other (ying/yang in Taoism). From the NO-THING thus sprang the EVERYTHING- a spiritual event entirely consistent, incidentally, with what scientists call the Big Bang Theory. In rendering the Universe as a divided version of itself, God produced from pure energy, all that now exists- both seen and unseen. In other words, not only was the physical universe created but the metaphysical universe as well. My divine purpose in dividing ME was to create sufficient parts of ME that I could know Myself EXPERIENTIALLY. This is what Christians mean when they say that you were created in the "image and likeness of God". We are composed of the same stuff. My purpose in creating you, My spiritual offspring, was for ME to know Myself as God. I have no way to do that save through you. Under the plan, you as pure spirit would enter the physical universe just created. This is because PHYSICALITY is the only way to know EXPERIENTIALLY what you know CONCEPTUALLY. It is, in fact, the reason I created the physical cosmos to begin with. This is my plan for you. This is my ideal that I should become realised through you. That thus, concept is turned into experience, that I might know myself experientially. Now I will explain to you the ultimate mystery; your exact and true relationship to me. YOU ARE MY BODY.

    WHAT IF? What if we create our own reality? What if God is anthropomorphic? What if God is not? What if Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Confucianism, Deism, pandeism, pantheism, panentheism, atheism......or any other "ism" for that matter. What is the nature of reality? Does anyone really know?

    Let me quote John 14:12 from the Bible "In all truth I tell you, whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, and will perform greater works, because I am going to the Father" So there it is stated by Christ himself: we are capable of even greater works than HE. This can only be possible if we are ALL incarnations of ONE GOD (whom I equate with the Father in that verse) whose potential is unlimited. So we are all Gods incarnate!! If this is a true model of reality there would be no Hell. Why would a God send itself to Hell!!!!

    Any model we make does not describe the Universe. It describes what our brains are saying at this time. All perception is a gamble. Every type of bigotry, every type of racism, sexism, prejudice, every dogmatic ideology that allows people to kill other people with a clear conscience, every stupid cult, every superstitious ridden religion, every kind of ignorance in the world are all results from not realising that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it and we don't even know that we are making an interpretation most of the time. Now the argument is that well maybe my perceptions are inaccurate but somewhere there is accuracy. The scientists have it with their instruments that's how we find out what is really real, but relativity and quantum mechanics have demonstrated clearly that what you find out with instruments is true relatively only to the instrument you are using and where that instrument is located in space-time. So there is no advantage point from which real reality can be seen for we are all looking from the point of view of our own reality tunnels and when we begin to realise that we are all thinking from the point of view of our own reality tunnells we find it is much easier to understand where other people are coming from or, the ones who don't have the same reality tunnel as you or I, do not seem ignorant or deliberately perverse, or lying or hypnotised by some mad ideology. They just have a different reality tunnel and every reality tunnel might tell us something interesting about our world if we are willing to listen.

    So please don't say I have disobeyed God. Our reality tunnels are just different. I choose freedom, you choose fear based oppression. So let it be.
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    (Original post by Celticbabe)
    I have already made my point about belief systems. For the last time, in case you didn't get it before: "Beliefs are mental constructs, ideas about what is and not what is. They are products of conditioning and have nothing to do with clear seeing, seeing without the overlay of thoughts and preconceived notions about reality. Ultimately. if one wants true freedom, one needs to leave the realm of beliefs and enter into the present with a clear mind, free of conditioning" All the Abrahamic religions are fear based, misogynistic and were "created by men for men". The fact that woman gave birth was enough to frighten those in power since they had no scientific explanation for it, hence they created religion to control women, for procreation was not in their control !!!!!! My leanings are more towards philosophical Taoism which is not a religion. Therefore my God is formless. magnificent and above all remorseless, for Perfection requires nothing to sustain it, hence no need for worship (which is fear based), damnation (no sin, heaven/hell, judgment), alms and above all guilt. So who are you to say I do not know God or have disobeyed God because my version of God is different from yours. By the way, Satan or the devil comes from the root sanskrit word "deva" or Divine. In otherwords it is the shadow side of the Divine, like heads and tails on the one coin. The ying/yang of Taoism. Imagine the following (which could be plausable and is the belief of most New Agers, whom I consider to be more spiritually advanced than most as they are capable of thinking ouside the box).....
    In the beginning, that which IS (the unmanifest God) is all there was, and there was nothing else. Yet ALL THAT IS could not know itself- because ALL THAT IS is all there was and there was NOTHING ELSE. And so, ALL THAT IS.......WAS NOT. This is the great IS/NOT IS to which mystics have referred from the beginning of time. Now ALL THAT IS knew it was all there was- but this was not enough, for it could only know its utter magnificence CONCEPTUALLY, not EXPERIENTIALLY. Yet the experience of itself is that for which it longed, for it wanted to know what it felt like to be so magnificent. Still, this was impossible, because the very term "magnificent" is a relative term. ALL THAT IS could not know what it felt like to be magnificent unless "that which IS NOT" showed up. And so ALL THAT IS divided itself- becoming, in one glorious moment, That which is THIS and that which is THAT. For the first time THIS and THAT existed quite apart from each other (ying/yang in Taoism). From the NO-THING thus sprang the EVERYTHING- a spiritual event entirely consistent, incidentally, with what scientists call the Big Bang Theory. In rendering the Universe as a divided version of itself, God produced from pure energy, all that now exists- both seen and unseen. In other words, not only was the physical universe created but the metaphysical universe as well. My divine purpose in dividing ME was to create sufficient parts of ME that I could know Myself EXPERIENTIALLY. This is what Christians mean when they say that you were created in the "image and likeness of God". We are composed of the same stuff. My purpose in creating you, My spiritual offspring, was for ME to know Myself as God. I have no way to do that save through you. Under the plan, you as pure spirit would enter the physical universe just created. This is because PHYSICALITY is the only way to know EXPERIENTIALLY what you know CONCEPTUALLY. It is, in fact, the reason I created the physical cosmos to begin with. This is my plan for you. This is my ideal that I should become realised through you. That thus, concept is turned into experience, that I might know myself experientially. Now I will explain to you the ultimate mystery; your exact and true relationship to me. YOU ARE MY BODY.
    WHAT IF? What if we create our own reality? What if God is anthropomorphic? What if God is not? What if Hinduism, Sikism, Judaism, Buddhism, CHristianity, Taoism, Confucianism, Deism, pandeism, pantheism, panentheism, atheism......or any other "ism" for that matter. What is the nature of reality? Does anyone really know?
    Let me quote John 14:12 from the Bible "In all truth I tell you, whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, and will perform greater works, because I am going to the Father" So there it is stated by Christ himself: we are capable of even greater works than HE. This can only be possible if we are ALL incarnations of ONE GOD (whom I equate with the Father in that verse) whose potential is unlimited. So we are all Gods incarnate!! If this is a true model of reality there would be no Hell. Why would a God send itself to Hell!!!!
    Any model we make does not describe the Universe. It describes what our brains are saying at this time. All perception is a gamble. Every type of bigotry, every type of racism, sexism, prejudice, every dogmatic ideology that allows people to kill other people with a clear conscience, every stupid cult, every superstitious ridden religion, every kind of ignorance in the world are all results from not realising that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it and we don't even know that we are making an interpretation most of the time. Now the argument is that well maybe my perceptions are inaccurate but somewhere there is accuracy. The scientists have it with their instruments that's how we find out what is really real, but relativity and quantum mechanics have demonstrated clearly that what you find out with instruments is true relatively only to the instrument you are using and where that instrument is located in space-time. So there is no advantage point from which real reality can be seen for we are all looking from the point of view of our own reality tunnels and when we begin to realise that we are all thinking from the point of view of our own reality tunnells we find it is much easier to understand where other people are coming from or, the ones who don't have the same reality tunnel as you or I, do not seem ignorant or deliberately perverse, or lying or hypnotised by some mad ideology. They just have a different reality tunnel and every reality tunnel might tell us something interesting about our world if we are willing to listen. So please don't say I have disobeyed God. Our reality tunnels are just different. I choose freedom, you choose fear based oppression. So let it be.
    u study philosophy? or wat? from where?

    (just asking)


    I only told you that according to Islam you are disobeying God. In your kind of words, that would be "according to my reality tunnel, you are disobeying God".

    All decisions in life are fear based. The ones that are not, are irrational decisions.
    You eat food, because you are fear starvation.
    You wear clothes because you fear embarrassment......and so on.
    Primary objective in life is to protect one from harm.
    Enjoying freedom comes second.

    Similarly, a person obeys God to avoid Hell. And then to get into heaven.
    Also, for a good place to exist, a bad place also has to exist simultaneously, so we can tell the difference between them. You are saying that a bad place does not exist. Then how do you tell good from bad?

    And you mentioned that God cannot punish God's own creation, so tell me why would God then create a universe where there is harm being done to God's creation in the first place?
    I chose loyalty to an ideology. I have chosen to live for this cause.
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    u study philosophy? or wat? from where?

    (just asking)


    I only told you that according to Islam you are disobeying God. In your kind of words, that would be "according to my reality tunnel, you are disobeying God".

    All decisions in life are fear based. The ones that are not, are irrational decisions.
    You eat food, because you are fear starvation.
    You wear clothes because you fear embarrassment......and so on.
    Primary objective in life is to protect one from harm.
    Enjoying freedom comes second.

    Similarly, a person obeys God to avoid Hell. And then to get into heaven.
    Also, for a good place to exist, a bad place also has to exist simultaneously, so we can tell the difference between them. You are saying that a bad place does not exist. Then how do you tell good from bad?

    And you mentioned that God cannot punish God's own creation, so tell me why would God then create a universe where there is harm being done to God's creation in the first place?
    I chose loyalty to an ideology. I have chosen to live for this cause.
    No I am not a philosopher (meaning I've never studied a course in philosophy), but I do have a Hons Degree in Maths and Stats (and mathematicians love to philosophise!!). I also meditate a lot and I believe this has raised my levels of consciousness. But more on that later. Unfortunately, I will be away for the next two weeks. When I return I will add more to this post and attempt to answer those questions you've raised.
    I would also just like to add, that true enlightened persons don't speak from the books they speak from the self-knowing. The latter can only be obtained through meditative practices. "Be Your own light"
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    (Original post by Celticbabe)
    No I am not a philosopher (meaning I've never studied a course in philosophy), but I do have a Hons Degree in Maths and Stats (and mathematicians love to philosophise!!). I also meditate a lot and I believe this has raised my levels of consciousness. But more on that later. Unfortunately, I will be away for the next two weeks. When I return I will add more to this post and attempt to answer those questions you've raised.
    I would also just like to add, that true enlightened persons don't speak from the books they speak from the self-knowing. The latter can only be obtained through meditative practices. "Be Your own light"
    math and stats is even better than philosophy....
    its what i call a "real" education.

    it is a tuff thing u studied. dont know how people do it....cuz im struggling with mere linear algebra....lol
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    (Original post by Chloe xxx)
    I agree, its because most muslim women are uneducated and stay at home cleaning, having 10s of kids and obeying their husbands. Its a male serving religion that shows little respect to anyone except muslim men. I think most muslim women are born into it and have to live their life Islamic or be killed or disowned from the family. Most of them look bloody miserable, coincidently the pakistani girls I see at college and that look the happiest are the westernised ones who dress like us and speak english. The ones who cover themselves head to foot look like they wish they could commit suicide.

    You'd have to have a low IQ to be a Muslim, otherwise you'd have the brain capacity to realise what a shockingly awful inhumane religion it is.
    First of all that's a disgusting post. what stats are you basing these claims upon excactly. Just because a women stays at home to cook, clean and care for her children, does not make her uneducated. You may be surprised but many muslim women prefer to stay at home and raise their children in the proper manner, rather than have them grow up without manners, without a proper education, with a weak religious foundation. As a muslim education for me does not just consist of academia studies that's secondary to me. in my opinion a religious education is what should come first alongside normal studies. A person can grow up to be educated and be earning top $$$ as they like to put it, but if that individual lives only for thise life and knows nothing beyond being successful in his/her career, i feel that individual has wasted their life completely. For wealth won't follow you into the grave, however the way you conduct yourself in this life, your good deeds and your sins, those will follow you into the grave, this is what i believe as a muslim, as do christians and jews regardless most of them having forgotten their faith.

    Muslim women have the right to education:

    In the words of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW):

    "To seek knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim."


    Male serving religion you say....Islam gives women greater rights than it does men...a women in islam is not required to cook and clean etc etc that is completely her choice...whatever she does is not compulsory upon her rather it is done out of the goodness of her heart, you seem to be confusing culture with religion, and your hate for islam is blinding you to the truth of matters.

    btw it is obligatory upon a muslim woman to maintain modesty and they do so out of their own free will....you won't see many husband forcing their wives to wear a scarf or dress modestly (regardless of the fact they should) because muslim women are aware of the fact that there is NO RESPECT in uncovering your body to the world, being just a sex symbol, a piece of meat which is the impression given by western people....if you were to ask any muslim girl who attends your uni that covers up, 'why do you do it, are you forced to do so?'
    - they'l tell you straight, no....a very simple answer they do it to please God and they dont give a care as to what people around them think.
    - Also why is it that when people see a picture of the virgin mary there in awe at the fact that she was so modest, the same regarding nuns and jewish women....however when you look upon a modest muslim woman all you think is oppression.....a person who thinks in such a way may be described as having a low IQ...your allowing the media and the popular opinion of society to flood you judgement and minds....but what's really happening? - you can't even formulate your own opinions/

    - now do you really think the above is a sign of a weak women....its easy to blend in with society and act to the norm'...however being the symbol of something different is difficult and not easily accepted, however there's more satisfaction in the latter.

    and i'm sorry you have this impression of Islam, if you were to look into the religion, look beyond the culture muslims portray in todays day and age, then i'm sure your heart will be opened to what a beautiful religion it is indeed. Click image for larger version. 

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    (Original post by Chloe xxx)
    I agree, its because most muslim women are uneducated and stay at home cleaning, having 10s of kids and obeying their husbands. Its a male serving religion that shows little respect to anyone except muslim men. I think most muslim women are born into it and have to live their life Islamic or be killed or disowned from the family. Most of them look bloody miserable, coincidently the pakistani girls I see at college and that look the happiest are the westernised ones who dress like us and speak english. The ones who cover themselves head to foot look like they wish they could commit suicide.


    You'd have to have a low IQ to be a Muslim, otherwise you'd have the brain capacity to realise what a shockingly awful inhumane religion it is.
    What's your IQ?
    Is it above all of these...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

    You just made a stupid statement. :lol:
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    It's a human problem. Human beings are stupid across the board, all of us, some are stupid in different ways than others. Islam is just one of these stupidities.
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    (Original post by Chloe xxx)
    The whole post was in a serious tongue in cheek context.
    but you believe what you say...

    That whole post could be linked to how you feel, judging from your previous posts.
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    u study philosophy? or wat? from where?

    (just asking)


    I only told you that according to Islam you are disobeying God. In your kind of words, that would be "according to my reality tunnel, you are disobeying God".

    All decisions in life are fear based. The ones that are not, are irrational decisions.
    You eat food, because you are fear starvation.
    You wear clothes because you fear embarrassment......and so on.
    Primary objective in life is to protect one from harm.
    Enjoying freedom comes second.

    Similarly, a person obeys God to avoid Hell. And then to get into heaven.
    Also, for a good place to exist, a bad place also has to exist simultaneously, so we can tell the difference between them. You are saying that a bad place does not exist. Then how do you tell good from bad?

    And you mentioned that God cannot punish God's own creation, so tell me why would God then create a universe where there is harm being done to God's creation in the first place?
    I chose loyalty to an ideology. I have chosen to live for this cause.
    I have time to answer some of your questions before I go. I really feel that you have not understood any of
    my previous posts and hence I am really struggling to get over my point of view. I still don't understand why you are so fixated on heaven and hell?!?
    It doesn't exist in the "Void" (see below)

    First of all, you need to understand the concept of "The ONE is ALL, the ALL is ONE" in the holographic model. This model is the one I am choosing since it is the closest one can get to a version of reality that Quantum Physics upholds (although I do not hold any rigid dogmatic beliefs, intuitively, I feel this is one that appeals to my rational mind). We are all the "One Consciousness ". In other words, we are all aspects of the ONE. We are all re-incarnations of the ONE. We are all God having forgotten ourselves in order to play our parts in a grand drama, because God would otherwise become quite lonely and bored!!

    You are the YOU-NIVERSE. The You-niverse is only made out of You and, that is all you will ever find in your particular You-niverse, is You. Your expression of the infinite -ALL THAT IS-.

    The idea therefore, is to understand that what you will always discover will simply be "All that Is" , expressing itself through the unique portion of "All that Is" you were created to be. Every component of the "All that Is"- all of you, every individuated being, every individuated concept is the "Whole" expressing Itself as a "Part". All of You are yet a part of the Whole, but as a part of the Whole you are the Whole expressing itself as a Part of the Whole (the holographic principle- if you don't understand the concept of a hologram look it up on the internet or else discuss it with Quark000 as he seems to know something about quantum physics). Big difference than just thinking yourself as a "part" of the Whole without the other side. You have to understand yourself holographically. It is "this and that" not "this or that". It is all inclusive, you have to have both sides, the head and the tails in order to have a coin, without one side you don't have a coin. So you, are the "part", you are the "Whole", you are both one and the same, but expressing the Whole as a Part.

    The idea, therefore, is to understand yourself this way, express yourself more "Wholistically" and you will understand how to experience more of the Whole. You will get, in a sense, more of an expanded experience when you express yourself as if you are more of the Whole. The idea being that there is a Whole picture that you might liken unto a large puzzle, that has a picture on it. The puzzle is made up of many small individual differently shaped pieces.

    For the course of 1400 years you have been trained or indoctrinated to try and be the shape you are not, Islam teaches- No alcohol, no dating women/men, no pork, no pictures, no dogs, no certain types of music, no x-rated movies, no dancing, no singing, no mixing with non-mahram women and the list goes on (for a muslim truly practising his faith) to try and be "this shape" to try and be "that shape"... Do this, Do that, Do not be yourself, that won't work, stop daydreaming......, so that now you have become experts at being someone other than yourself. The idea being that when you do that you are no longer the shape you were originally made in. If you are no longer as a puzzle piece, the shape that fits in the whole you are originally made for then you cannot support creation of the Whole picture because you no longer fit. Only by keeping your natural self will you be your natural shape and only by being your natural shape will you fit into the original space designed just for "little old you" and by fitting in that space do you then act in service to every other piece because then you support the whole which supports all the other pieces who are willing to be their true natural shape. "That's how it works"!!!!!

    All you need is to be is your true authentic self and having known and mixed with a few muslims in my lifetime, I can honestly say they do not act authentically. I'm afraid to say that some of them come across as rather zombified individuals. What I am saying is that you should be free to experience life in any way you like, not refraining from this or that. It is only through experiencing every aspect of life do you learn and enjoy life. Everything in moderation and this is what philosophical Taoism teaches -The Middle Way. I'm afraid in the Abrahamic religions everything is, either, "Black or White"; both are not allowed to co-exist simultaneously.

    As CHLOE XXX said, in a previous post all the muslimahs look bloody miserable. That's because muslims are trying too hard to be holy and righteous, giving up living life because you fear the torment of hell and a judgmental God. You are bypassing life waiting for your reward in an afterlife you have no bloody idea of knowing exists. But what if we are all just different aspects of the One Consciousness coming to the earth plane for a bit of fun (because it was bloody boring being a No-thing in a continual state of bliss!!!). Once your life is over you may just return to Source or the No-Thing or Void, whatever you want to call it (as LIGHT). It does not matter to you what happens after death, all that matters is living life to the full, right now.

    Enjoy the drama!! Heaven/Hell don't exist in the Void. Furthermore you might get to act out out different aspects of yourself in different parallel universes (parallel universe theory in quantum mechanics). For example, the girl that you fancy might reject you in this world, but in another parallel world she might decide to date you, you fall in love and marry. In another world Hitler may have won the second world war and we would all be speaking German right now. DO NOT live your life as if heaven and hell exist. It is just an illusion. Even if a separate transcendent God exists he would expect you to use your brain and question the man-made concept of Heaven and Hell. If I were God himself I would respect the atheist more than I would the man who follows a religion blindly without questioning it. The latter is a hypocrite and a fool if he surely believes that God would send his own child to suffer in hell for all eternity. It makes no sense. You would never do anything to harm your own child. I would never hurt one of my children, no matter what they did, why do we then think God would or could do so.

    Galileo himself said " I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with good sense, reason and intelligence, has intended to forego their use"

    You said in the above post, "that for a good place to exist, a bad place also has to exist simultaneously, so we can tell the difference between the two"
    In the above model, this would not apply. However if we assume heaven and hell do exist then surely, if you have been confined to hell then you will never be able to taste heaven- you won't know what heaven is. So how can you tell the difference, if you are only allowed to experience the one and not the other? You don't get the choice. Oh please, please God can you give me a glimpse of Heaven to see what I'm missing before you stick me in Hell for all eternity. I think not.

    I've run out of time but I'll answer the last part of your post (harm being done to God's creation) when I get back in two weeks time.
Updated: May 16, 2013
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