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How come mosques are overflowing on Fridays but churches are empty on Sundays?

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    (Original post by xXxiKillxXx)
    Ahmadiyya isn't part of Islam, therefore it IS a religion. Anyways, since you are not going to accept this soonish lets get on with my questions
    Do you know what Islam even is? Do you know what one has to say and believe to be a Muslim? If someone claims to be a Muslims what right do you have to say otherwise? Where in the Qur'an or Hadith have you been given the authority to declare someone as 'out of the fold of Islam'?

    A genuine true Muslim looks to bring people into Islam, not take people out.

    My question is, how can you (as someone who claims they are a ''Muslim'') oppose punishments for abhorrent crimes such as homosexuality (for instance stoning to death), if the hadiths clearly state these are the correct punishment?

    Your reply to this is something along the lines of ''Shariah comes from the Quran etc, and nothing can overrule the Quran, and the Quran doesn't mention specific details'', well the Hadiths don't overrule the Quran.. And why are you asking me about Jesus? I didn't even mention him in this thread? Anyways, he did not die. He rose to heaven, but he will descend near the end times and then die.

    BTW, let me add; I am not asking you whether you believe Shariah should be implemented in the UK, I am asking if you accept punishments such as stoning to death of a homosexual as being a commandment of God.

    You Ahmadiyyas claim to have ''love for all' etc, so answer the above please^
    Like you said, Hadith don't overrule the Qur'an but Qur'an does overrule Hadith. Qur'an is word of God is it not?

    Now there is no specific punishment whatsoever described for homosexuality, stoning certainly isn't a punishment in Islam, where in the Qur'an is this punishment?

    This punishment of stoning is in the TORAH, which the Prophet used to follow when commandments for certain things weren't received in the Qur'an - he would follow the previous scripture and commandment from God.

    Secondly, how can you positively punish homosexuality? How can you even prove this? This is something private and happens in private. Furthermore in Islam you need 4 reliable witnesses to prove such a crime. Where are you going to find such witnesses when such a crime happens in private in the confines of four walls?

    Also Hadith show that the Prophet was averse to such harsh punishment even in the case of adultery. This is in Hadith.

    So no, stoning is not a commandment from God in Islamic law. Commandments from God are in the Qur'an, yes? Then where is this commandment in the Qur'an? NOWHERE.

    I'm mentioning Jesus as you wrongly believe that he is alive. Was he not human? Do all humans not age and die? Qur'an explicitly says so. Did he not eat food? Why would a Judaic Prophet suddenly come for the Muslims? God NEVER sends back Messengers, only raises new ones.

    Yes, we Ahmadis do believe 'Love For ALL, Hatred For None'. This is an Islamic principle. Everything we do is in accordance with Islam.
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    I think it may have to do with the sense of community.

    People who go to those packed mosques would tend to feel more involved than a person who attends a church with a congregation of 6 or 7 OAPs. A church near me (before you ask, no it's not a black church) regularly pulls in a congregation of 500 and people who attend have said that it's because of the community and atmosphere that they feel more inclined to go.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Do you know what Islam even is? Do you know what one has to say and believe to be a Muslim? If someone claims to be a Muslims what right do you have to say otherwise? Where in the Qur'an or Hadith have you been given the authority to declare someone as 'out of the fold of Islam'?

    A genuine true Muslim looks to bring people into Islam, not take people out.



    Like you said, Hadith don't overrule the Qur'an but Qur'an does overrule Hadith. Qur'an is word of God is it not?

    Now there is no specific punishment whatsoever described for homosexuality, stoning certainly isn't a punishment in Islam, where in the Qur'an is this punishment?

    This punishment of stoning is in the TORAH, which the Prophet used to follow when commandments for certain things weren't received in the Qur'an - he would follow the previous scripture and commandment from God.

    Secondly, how can you positively punish homosexuality? How can you even prove this? This is something private and happens in private. Furthermore in Islam you need 4 reliable witnesses to prove such a crime. Where are you going to find such witnesses when such a crime happens in private in the confines of four walls?

    Also Hadith show that the Prophet was averse to such harsh punishment even in the case of adultery. This is in Hadith.

    So no, stoning is not a commandment from God in Islamic law. Commandments from God are in the Qur'an, yes? Then where is this commandment in the Qur'an? NOWHERE.

    I'm mentioning Jesus as you wrongly believe that he is alive. Was he not human? Do all humans not age and die? Qur'an explicitly says so. Did he not eat food? Why would a Judaic Prophet suddenly come for the Muslims? God NEVER sends back Messengers, only raises new ones.

    Yes, we Ahmadis do believe 'Love For ALL, Hatred For None'. This is an Islamic principle. Everything we do is in accordance with Islam.
    I do not say that Ahmadiyyas are non-Muslim out of my own desire, the major scholars do (with good reason may I add), and I follow them since they have studied the Deen for many years. No, you don't bring people into Islam if they are not Muslim, some rappers claim they believe in ''Allah'' but don't believe in any rituals such as praying, fasting and other fundamentals of Islam, are they Muslims? No.

    Also, I KNOW you need 4 reliable witnesses, but don't avoid this question; IF there ARE 4 reliable people who claim they have witnessed 2 homosexuals indulging in their act, is the death penalty proscribed for them or not? Yes it is.
    And whether you are correct in saying there is no punishment mentioned in the Quran for homosexuality is irrelevant. Because there IS a punishment in the Hadiths.

    You could argue your point IF the Quran contradicted the Hadith in terms of the attitude towards homosexuality (which it doesn't). In fact, both the Hadiths and Quran STRONGLY condemn homosexuality, its just that the Hadiths give specific detailed punishments for this act.

    Let me ask you this, do you accept or reject Hadiths? Give me a straight answer. Because at one point in your argument you seem to ignore hadiths then later you say ''this is in hadiths''.. Answer this and we can progress our discussion.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Because whilst we've had the benefit(?) of several hundred years of The Enlightenment, many Muslamic types are only just starting down the road to 'getting with the program'.. seems obvious?
    Without us (those dirty Easterners) you would still be drinking piss and getting raped by your wonderful barons. No need to sound like you're so enlightened. The evidence suggests otherwise, especially in England.
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    This is nothing to do with how long the Religions have been established in a certain country, in this case the UK, it is simply to do with what each religion teaches.

    The meaning of Islam means total submission to God (Allah) hence it is contradictory to pick and choose what pleases you as a Muslim, for example choosing to pray to Allah and selling drugs which will harm people (another example would be terrorism)(!)
    A lot (not all) of Muslims realise this.

    Whereas with Christianity, among Christians there is more freedom and people like to follow their desires which is detrimental to their religion and communities and an example would be paedophile priests.

    Both Christianity and Islam have a lot of similarities and both have good morals.
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    (Original post by xXxiKillxXx)
    I do not say that Ahmadiyyas are non-Muslim out of my own desire, the major scholars do (with good reason may I add), and I follow them since they have studied the Deen for many years. No, you don't bring people into Islam if they are not Muslim, some rappers claim they believe in ''Allah'' but don't believe in any rituals such as praying, fasting and other fundamentals of Islam, are they Muslims? No.
    Well don't Ahmadis believe in these 'rituals'? Don't Ahmadis believe in all these fundamentals of Islam?

    As for these 'scholars', do you know what the Holy Prophet said about them? Do you know what problems they've put the Muslim world into? Who has given them the right to declare Ahmadis as non-Muslim? Where from Allah or the Prophet have they been given this authority? NOWHERE.

    Also, I KNOW you need 4 reliable witnesses, but don't avoid this question; IF there ARE 4 reliable people who claim they have witnessed 2 homosexuals indulging in their act, is the death penalty proscribed for them or not? Yes it is.
    And whether you are correct in saying there is no punishment mentioned in the Quran for homosexuality is irrelevant. Because there IS a punishment in the Hadiths.

    You could argue your point IF the Quran contradicted the Hadith in terms of the attitude towards homosexuality (which it doesn't). In fact, both the Hadiths and Quran STRONGLY condemn homosexuality, its just that the Hadiths give specific detailed punishments for this act.

    Let me ask you this, do you accept or reject Hadiths? Give me a straight answer. Because at one point in your argument you seem to ignore hadiths then later you say ''this is in hadiths''.. Answer this and we can progress our discussion.
    OK fine. Where in the Qur'an does it actually say that homosexuals should be punished? Tell me that firstly, I'm aware that it is a abhorrent act and should be dealt with, I agree with this but where does it specifically say they should be punished?

    Then where does it say this in Hadith, please provide.

    I fully accept Hadith unless it contradicts Qur'an. If in anyway it contradicts it, then it is unreliable and Qur'an must be followed. Qur'an should be the basis of all, Hadith is secondary only to Qur'an.

    ALSO, the philosophy of punishments in Islam has to be taken into account here. Remember that in Islam, punishment is last resort, Islam emphasises forgiveness and reformation.
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    I live in an area which seems to be largely Christian and there's a few churches here which are very old but on Sundays they're mostly empty and the people who do go are 65+ (and let's be honest, they're probably going to kick their boots sometime soon so they're praying in anticipation of death). However, the local mosque is packed on Friday, so much so that you can actually see them praying outside on the street and there's 4 rows of them, possibly 120 people outside, praying in usually rain. There doesn't seem to be many Muslims here and the mosque itself is a converted shop but it's quite big inside so you'd think it would be empty on Fridays because there's not very many Muslims here. Yet there's more Muslims praying outside on Friday than there is Christians going to church on Sunday, wtf? Where do they come from? Do 100% of Muslims go to the mosque on Fridays?
    Shouldn't the mosques be overflowing five times a day, every day?
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    (Original post by Besakt)
    Shouldn't the mosques be overflowing five times a day, every day?
    I would think so. Lots of Muslims have told me X,Y,Z about Islam about what I should be doing and even teaching some Islam but when it came to pray, they didn't go with me.

    For example, just recently, this girl was going to get her boyfriend to explain to me about the concept of funeral prayer.

    But hey...:dontknow:
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Tell me that firstly, I'm aware that it is a abhorrent act and should be dealt with, I agree with this but where does it specifically say they should be punished?
    Read bottom of page 135 and top of page 136.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Read bottom of page 135 and top of page 136.
    Of which book?
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Read bottom of page 135 and top of page 136.
    Which edition of the Quran are you talking about?

    A surah and sentence (ayat) number would be better for a reference.
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    I would think so. Lots of Muslims have told me X,Y,Z about Islam about what I should be doing and even teaching some Islam but when it came to pray, they didn't go with me.

    For example, just recently, this girl was going to get her boyfriend to explain to me about the concept of funeral prayer.

    But hey...:dontknow:
    Exactly. Why is there no comparison made between the first prayer of the day at a mosque and Sundays at a church. The difference will not be as different.
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    (Original post by Besakt)
    Exactly. Why is there no comparison made between the first prayer of the day at a mosque and Sundays at a church. The difference will not be as different.
    It depends on where you live because you might not live near a mosque. And for some Muslim families, they don't like their sons or daughters becoming practising because they consider it too extreme.

    I remember hearing a talk from Nouman Ali Khan (Muslim speaker in the USA) and he was saying that he received a message from a young guy born Muslim and that he was saying how his father didn't like it when he had found that his son was going to the mosque to study in between lectures during the day. You also get this in Asian weddings- you're beard is too much or you're didn't use to be like this when did you become a sheikh, take that silly headscarf off, you'll embarrass the family...etc.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    Of which book?

    (Original post by Besakt)
    Which edition of the Quran are you talking about?

    A surah and sentence (ayat) number would be better for a reference.
    The name of the book is Islam FAQ, its by Jim McCrudden and he uses quotes by Islamic Imams and scholars to back his claims. In fact the page reference I gave you is not Jim's own words. He is quoting a religious cleric who is speaking about Islam.

    Now, I'm sure you are aware that what an Imam or a religious leader says in Islam is a big deal and people follow them as law. This is why fatwas are so rampant. So I would suggest you not throw this point away just because it is not from the Quran. Muslims follow religious leader's words as if they are from the Quran.

    Also, this discussion is not about what is in the Quran, but rather what is practiced. Muslims in many countries (especially where Sharia (Islamic) law is practiced, hate homosexuals and want to kill them.

    I personally agree that homosexuality is wrong and should not be allowed as I see it as a sin (I am Christian). However I do not hate homosexuals, because Jesus teaches us to love everyone.
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    (Original post by sulyz1)
    Both Christianity and Islam have a lot of similarities and both have good morals.
    lol. yeah sure, of course they do.

    immoral in theory, immoral in practice.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Read bottom of page 135 and top of page 136.
    I have read you are a Christian maybe you should look into the old testament specifically Leviticus 20:13 King James Version (KJV).
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    I would think the VAST majority of muslims that visited mosques in the UK are pakistani , and dont knock it till you tried it, some of the best chappati i ever had and probably the best thing about going. Almost good enough to make me consider converting to a desert based doctrine from the dark ages - but not quite!
    Nope you are wrong there. Pakistanis make up just about 40 percent of the UK's Muslims.. That is not the vast majority, although it is the single biggest group of Muslims. Anyways, that doesn't necessarily mean that Pakistanis are the most mosque visiting.. Chapatis have no relevance to Islam, they have relevance to Pakistani culture, so next time go to your Pakistani Christian community.
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    It depends on where you live because you might not live near a mosque. And for some Muslim families, they don't like their sons or daughters becoming practising because they consider it too extreme.

    I remember hearing a talk from Nouman Ali Khan (Muslim speaker in the USA) and he was saying that he received a message from a young guy born Muslim and that he was saying how his father didn't like it when he had found that his son was going to the mosque to study in between lectures during the day. You also get this in Asian weddings- you're beard is too much or you're didn't use to be like this when did you become a sheikh, take that silly headscarf off, you'll embarrass the family...etc.
    I live in an area with quiet a few mosques (there is about 4/5 within walking distance), it would be surprising if the first row of the mosque is filled.

    Yeah there is a lot of hypocrisy, I know a girl who wears a headscarf acts like an angel in front of her peers and family but has a boyfriend.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    The name of the book is Islam FAQ, its by Jim McCrudden and he uses quotes by Islamic Imams and scholars to back his claims. In fact the page reference I gave you is not Jim's own words. He is quoting a religious cleric who is speaking about Islam.

    Now, I'm sure you are aware that what an Imam or a religious leader says in Islam is a big deal and people follow them as law. This is why fatwas are so rampant. So I would suggest you not throw this point away just because it is not from the Quran. Muslims follow religious leader's words as if they are from the Quran.

    Also, this discussion is not about what is in the Quran, but rather what is practiced. Muslims in many countries (especially where Sharia (Islamic) law is practiced, hate homosexuals and want to kill them.

    I personally agree that homosexuality is wrong and should not be allowed as I see it as a sin (I am Christian). However I do not hate homosexuals, because Jesus teaches us to love everyone.
    No this discussion is about the prescribed punishment for homosexuality in Islam. Where do we get this from? The Qur'an.

    What so called 'scholars' have said is unreliable because they themselves have been corrupted and deviated from the true Islamic teaching. If you want to know the Islamic view, open up the Qur'an, why do you need to go and ask power hungry clerics?

    Muslims shouldn't hate homosexuals either. Everyone has passions and desire but that's what being human is about, you have to control and suppress those evil, undesirable temptations.
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    (Original post by Besakt)
    I live in an area with quiet a few mosques (there is about 4/5 within walking distance), it would be surprising if the first row of the mosque is filled.

    Yeah there is a lot of hypocrisy, I know a girl who wears a headscarf acts like an angel in front of her peers and family but has a boyfriend.
    This conversation is just bordering on judging. I know many hijabless girls that tell me how to be a proper Muslim- one directed me on the etiquette of dua'a.

    But as Sheikh al-Arfi said even by appearance, they may not look like good Muslims, they may have some good in them.

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