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Why is Islam so strict on women?

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    (Original post by Azair_y)

    Society in this country is so damn stupid
    as opposed to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc
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    in my view, Quran 4:34 is a clear boo-boo committed by God in his revelation

    "and beat her" should be replaced by "and don't beat her, ever"

    unfortunately, millions of women , over the centuries, have paid the price for God's error
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    in my view, Quran 4:34 is a clear boo-boo committed by God in his revelation

    "and beat her" should be replaced by "and don't beat her, ever"

    unfortunately, millions of women , over the centuries, have paid the price for God's error
    As to a beating, the Holy Prophet [Muhammad] allowed it very reluctantly and even then did not like it. But the fact is that there are certain women who do not mend their ways without a beating. In such a case, the Holy Prophet has instructed that she would not be beaten on the face, or cruelly, or with anything which might leave a mark on the body. (vol. 1, p. 333, note 59)
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    (Original post by Azair_y)
    If there were any ayah(sentences) in the Quran which didn't suit our agendas wouldn't we change it? .
    of course that some ayah of the Quran should be changed (and starting with 4:34 -the wife bashing ayah)

    Finally a practical, pro-active suggestion.
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    (Original post by JustBorn)
    there are certain women who do not mend their ways without a beating.)
    you are a good example of the huge damage produced by this verse (4:34)
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    (Original post by kingkongfingers)
    A Muslim woman can't leave the house without a male relative accompanying her.This gives men a great dominance over women, because they can choose where the woman goes, and when.
    don't tell me you don't know what happen 'men' see a women going out alone... most of the time they follow them to their home other times its just pure hell!
    not all men are like that but if men accompany us they don't harass us.
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    (Original post by JustBorn)
    In such a case, the Holy Prophet has instructed that she would not be beaten on the face, or cruelly, or with anything which might leave a mark on the body. (vol. 1, p. 333, note 59)
    the various ahadith (sayings of Muhammad) stating those limitations sound rather like damage-limitation exercises

    the ayah from the Quran (4:34) has produced the original damage, the subsequent ahadith try somehow to repair the situation

    Of course that it would have been much, much better to simply state in the Quran "don't beat her" and then , if necessary, add some limited exceptions (self-defense, force majeure etc etc) which would apply in any case to all inter-personal relationships

    By stating clearly that the marriage bond gives the husband the right to "discipline" physically his wife, the inferiority of women in marriage is explicitly stated.

    Women are still paying consequences for this.

    Best
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    It genuinely disgusts me!
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    The abjection of women in Islam is something I will never approve of.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Well, clearly they havent, or i wouldnt be asking for you to answer them But i can see you are well versed in dodging questions, another well known islamic trait





    i dont really think it matters. do you think all these muslims are apologising for listening to ipods? Nah, islam doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things to anyone, Apple is far more important.




    Please paste where you did, if nothing else to humour me.




    The 'revolution stopped in the sense that western laws were changed to give women equal rights. islamic law needs to change also , but currently muslim women who campaign for this face too many obstacles (like being killed or locked up)


    You do realise that beofre islamic armies conquered the region and imposed their customs and beliefs, these peoples had their own, different ones?
    Now they are choosing from their own free will to adopt western culture instead of that that was imposed on them years ago, whats wrong with that?

    in what way?
    I've addressed all these points. Look at my post-history carefully and all the evidences given already because I'm getting tired of going around in circles tbh.





    From the BBC Link:
    advocating greater rights for women while working within the Islamic legal framework.
    on global issues of direct relevance and concern to women.
    I know there are.


    no, im simply adressing your erroneous suggestion that islamic peoples dont want to have anything to do with western culture. I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you fail to see they have volutarily taken on western influence even after "1300 years of Language, social customs, religion becoming enshrined"
    Indeed. I don't dispute this but then I haven't questioned the religiosity of the Muslims that you see, unlike you Mr moral Policeman.

    The mass migration of Muslims to the West is a consequence of western foreign policy ventures in the Muslim world and not because of Muslim infatuation with western values. Most migrants, if not all are either economic migrants or political asylum seekers escaping the tyranny of regimes often supported by western governments. Even those Muslims, who have settled in the west, have yet to embrace secular values for fear of corrupting their Islam which I have already given evidence for.

    The desire amongst Muslims to own western goods are falsely interpreted as a craving for the western way of life. Westerners often have habit to classify those who display admiration for western goods into the moderate camp.

    To pigeonhole Muslims into the two camps based on such interpretations is wrong. This is because the anti-western rhetoric found amongst Muslims is a denunciation of western culture and not of western goods. Likewise, the expression for the admiration for western products is an acknowledgement of the superior quality of the goods and is not an affirmation for the wholesale acceptance of western culture.

    Hence, why I said a ''massive misconception".







    Isnt that more to do with medical treatment and wealth per capita than locking women up and treating them as 2nd class citezens :confused:
    i think you are mixing up arguments here again.
    Sure.





    No, what led to the arab spring was Facebook. Not a caliphate or a prophet or a chanting man from a tower. An american social website Invented by a jew.
    And what led Facebook?
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    yes, we do have very good statistics, thanks
    There's a wealth of "good" statistics out there I can bring.

    You guys should start dealing with the real oppression home and stop acting like white knights in the Middle East. thanks.
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    (Original post by JustBorn)
    As to a beating, the Holy Prophet [Muhammad] allowed it very reluctantly and even then did not like it. But the fact is that there are certain women who do not mend their ways without a beating. In such a case, the Holy Prophet has instructed that she would not be beaten on the face, or cruelly, or with anything which might leave a mark on the body. (vol. 1, p. 333, note 59)
    Glad you made that clear.
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    You guys should start dealing with the real oppression home and stop acting like white knights in the Middle East. thanks.
    what we do in our lives (work, study; personal relationships) is entirely up to us : it can contribute to "real oppression" or not

    however, when people on this forum explain to me how horribly secularism treats women , and how Islam "liberates" them, this is a very explicit invitation to have a a frank, serious, open echange of views

    as usual, discussions where opposite views are being defended are the most interesting : there is nothing worse than the reciprocal self-congratulatory back-slapping you can witness on many "confessional" forums or threads

    as much as I totally disagree with most Muslim posters on this thread, it is a useful experience to read what they think

    I hope they will also pause and reflect on why most non-Muslims deeply disagree with Islam with regard to the position of women in society.

    It is not just brain-washing and the distortions being spread by the Illuminati/Zionist/freemasons/Capitalistic/Kuffarish media

    It goes much, much deeper than that.
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    (Original post by noisy06)
    Yes well some of those countries are war torn, so people won't act rationally when there are dead bodies all around them. Also, wiki Islam is pretty Islamophobic and I don't trust it as a source. For what it's worth I assume you're proud of the 1 in 4 rate in Britain, does it show that women in Britain are safe? I don't think so. There is a larger homicide rate in Britain than many Muslim countries, does this show secularism leads to homicide and is more dangerous than Islam?
    Well their quoting real sources, so you can give them googles individually if you wanna check out how legit they are.

    And no i'm no 'proud', but it's amusing that you state boldly that you doubt any Islamic countries have worse rates when clearly that is not so.

    A country being war torn isn't an excuse to permit domestic violence.
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    (Original post by kingkongfingers)
    Actually, why are all religions MUCH more stricter on women?
    Well to correct you in Sikhism both are treated equally, there are equal rights no matter what sex you are

    Anyway, to answer this I think it is because of the time and place the religion grew from. :confused:
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    (Original post by JustBorn)
    As to a beating, the Holy Prophet [Muhammad] allowed it very reluctantly and even then did not like it. But the fact is that there are certain women who do not mend their ways without a beating. In such a case, the Holy Prophet has instructed that she would not be beaten on the face, or cruelly, or with anything which might leave a mark on the body. (vol. 1, p. 333, note 59)
    But why take it upon yourself to decide whether women need to be beaten to 'mend' their ways, shouldn't God decide, who are men to decide. I don't think men should ever be allowed to lay a finger on a women, unless it is in a loving way.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    I think you'll find the most notable 50 scholars in Saudi Arabia will have very different ideas to the 50 most notable scholars in the United Kingdom.
    Like I say, interpretation. You can read and learn something a million times, you've stil got your own ideas.
    Yea, and that's the way it is. If I am going to criticise an Atheist, would I saw something like those 1000 Atheists are murders hence Atheism is flawed? No, I would talk about how the evolution theory hasn't proved anything about moneys evolving into humans, the missing link, and the ever so loved Charles Darwin even said so himself that his theory was inconclusive. The root of Christianity is the Bible, which is unreliable as it has been changed, the Bible has many statements which contradict each other. Other religions believe in reincarnation, humans are at the top, the human population is rapidly rising dramatically in this day and age, and is the world getting amazingly better right now? I don't think so.

    These are arguments on the roots of a religion/belief, which I would debate about. I believe you could be in the ideal society as a Christian/Hindu following the teachings correctly and still have the wrong belief. The ideal society as a Muslim with the right interpretations you would have the right belief, obviously one wouldn't be perfect, as every mortal sins, but the teachings one would follow would be flawless. Nothing to do with a Man should treat his wife bad, kill innocent people, have a clear inconsistent distribution of wealth, grave worshipping, different sects etc etc. Which unfortunately many major Muslims societies are involved in this day and age.

    Look. I know what I'm saying is very far fetched, but that's my point of view. If someone wants to be Christian, Hindu, Agnostic, Athiest or w/e, who the fcuk am I to judge them and call them stupid? Having the opinion of religion is stupid, horrible and the worst thing ever as it kills so many people, is what could cause the damn conflict in the first place. Having the opinion of people have their own right to their faiths and beliefs doesn't result in an issue. You get me?
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    I've addressed all these points. Look at my post-history carefully and all the evidences given already because I'm getting tired of going around in circles tbh.?




    Thats ok, i already said you really havent given any answer on this thread- but that is not untypical on discussions about islam.



    (Original post by harmony_01)

    Indeed. I don't dispute this but then I haven't questioned the religiosity of the Muslims that you see, unlike you Mr moral Policeman.?

    Neither was i, i was pointing out the facts of reality and asking you whether you thought this was islam being practiced or not. Nonce again you declined to give an opinion- clearly a pattern is emerging.

    (Original post by harmony_01)
    the mass migration of Muslims to the West is a consequence of western foreign policy ventures in the Muslim world and not because of Muslim infatuation with western values. Most migrants, if not all are either economic migrants or political asylum seekers escaping the tyranny of regimes often supported by western governments. Even those Muslims, who have settled in the west, have yet to embrace secular values for fear of corrupting their Islam which I have already given evidence for.?


    I wasnt talking about muslims in the west, they already live western lives despite btiching about the west to each other. but muslims in the islamic world, that have adopted elements of western culture. most younger generation mulsims watch american tv and listen to their music.

    Clealry they have already "corrupted islam "by deliberatly doing things told not to by islamic scripture, not by accident or western invaders, but by their own decisions.

    (Original post by harmony_01)

    The desire amongst Muslims to own western goods are falsely interpreted as a craving for the western way of life. Westerners often have habit to classify those who display admiration for western goods into the moderate camp.

    To pigeonhole Muslims into the two camps based on such interpretations is wrong. This is because the anti-western rhetoric found amongst Muslims is a denunciation of western culture and not of western goods. Likewise, the expression for the admiration for western products is an acknowledgement of the superior quality of the goods and is not an affirmation for the wholesale acceptance of western culture

    Hence, why I said a ''massive misconception".?

    Western culture is propagated by western media, which is massive in isalmic countires - because there is a demand for it. In fact dont muslims scholars tell you that you are not to buy products from regiemes islam doesnt agree with - israeli produce for example? Seems like muslims stick two fingers up as islamic rules as and when it suits them no?

    Various islamic laws have changed to remesemble more western ones, becuase of demands of society. Western laws are not ismilarly becoming islamic (becuase this would be a backward step) nor do we watch alot of islamic media, (execpt the laughable youtube clips that get posted on tsr)







    (Original post by harmony_01)


    And what led Facebook?
    Eh?
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    you give your own definition of a religion - I have mine

    and even under your own definition, communism fulfills quite a few of your criteria (new book, small following, persecution, victory&spread etc)

    not all religions claim to derive from a "God" (e.g. Buddhism, Taoism), but all of them have prophet-like quasi-idolized figures (such as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc)

    IN any case, as has been noticed, it is absurd to claim that Muhammad had no political program : of course he did

    He took political power in Arabia, changed society according to his ideas (allegedly sent down from "Allah"), eliminated all competition and then set up his "ummah" as a war machine which after his death, in the next century, would spread out from Arabia and invade foreign countries (Syria, Mesopotamia, Iran, North Africa, Spain, Southern France and Italy etc), eliminate local elites, take over entire States

    Nothing political, of course : all spiritual meditation and research.

    Ridiculous.
    H ha well said - perfect in fact!!!
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    As oppossed to thinking learnt parrot fashion from a 1300 year old book written by desert shepherds?
    Don't you have better things to do, like eat pork or something...?
Updated: March 27, 2012
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