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Why is Islam so strict on women?

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    (Original post by James0507)
    Western women cover their genitals up because, in our culture, it is considered in appropriate. If we're discussing that as a violation of right then that's a whole new can of worms you're opening, but this thread is for discussing inequality between men and women, and last time I checked, the same social expectations exist for Men and Women in western cultures.. men are totally expected to cover their genitals too. Last time I checked, men were not expected to wear a Burka.
    Well why is it culture to cover up genitals? Why is it culture to cover up breasts?
    I'm saying that for the same reason, it is considered appropriate in Islam to cover other body parts too.

    And no, I don't agree that the same societal expectations exist for men and women in western cultures. There is a societal difference between a woman who exposes certain body parts, and a man who does the same. For example, walk into any nightclub. I reckon you will see many many women exposing their arms, legs, backs etc. but you won't find many men doing the same. Why is this?

    A man exposing his legs and a woman exposing her legs are not considered to be the same thing in western society - nor are they considered the same in Islam either.

    If the Qur'an is not open to interpretation, let's see how you want to Interpret these quotes... Because I know how I interpret them and if you disagree with me, it simply proves my point....


    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all),"

    "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females"

    So surely, you either agree with me that the Qur'an is clearly sexist here, or you agree with me that these things are open to interpretation. Your call.
    Well first of all, if I were to disagree with your interpretation, this would still not prove that the Qur'an is open to interpretation. Yes, there are many ways people interpret certain statements, but the fact is that most of them are wrong. And they can be shown to be wrong because they are contradicted by some other explicit statement in the Qur'an.

    But in any case, I agree that men and women are treated and considered differently in Islam, and I'm sure any Muslim would say the same - and that it is for good reason that they are treated differently.
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    Did you read my post?

    How can you spend your whole life time on one religion then another religion as well? That doesn't make sense does it?

    The simple basics I've seen, they don't look right to me... should I abandon it completely or continue my research? How would I know when I've done enough research?
    Yes I did read your post, did you read mine? As I have said, it is perfectly possible to research all the religions in a lifetime. As I have also said, you dont need to become a full on member of that religion to do so. Many people have done, and many more will continue to do so.
    Well if you feel as though none of the religions 'look right' to you, then that is completely your choice to remain an atheist. But please try to understand that there are many who DO convert and live happily. (Yes, its possible to be happy and religious at the same time. Shocking, right? :eek:)
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    and the hadith... both of which everyone has a different interpretation of.
    There is only one correct interpretation though - that is, the one which was intended by the author of the Qur'an, and the one which was intended by Muhammad whenever he said what he said in Hadiths. One can easily work out which ones the incorrect interpretations are, by showing that they are contradicted elsewhere by the Qur'an and Hadith.

    So the "true" Muslim is the one who takes the correct interpretation, of which there is only one, and is obvious to a person who is familiar with what the Qur'an and Hadith say.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    Are you seriously going down the "women provoke rape with what they wear" route? Police need that information because they need a complete and whole understanding of the situation, possibly in regards to testing for DNA. Not because what the women wore contributed to or caused the attack.
    You don't seem to get that ALL religion is interpretive. It is by its very nature interpretive. Who are you to say the rest of Islam is wrong? By your view maybe, but they see it another way. Yet you still call yourself a Muslim so expect their actions to have repercussions for you. If I was a member of a political party in which suddenly, members began to express racist views- those views would be associated with me even if I don't hold them. My response would be to dissociate myself, obviously.
    [3:8] "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —"

    Is this not clear enough for you?

    Western women cover their genitals up because, in our culture, it is considered in appropriate. If we're discussing that as a violation of right then that's a whole new can of worms you're opening, but this thread is for discussing inequality between men and women, and last time I checked, the same social expectations exist for Men and Women in western cultures.. men are totally expected to cover their genitals too. Last time I checked, men were not expected to wear a Burka.
    Men are expected to lower their gaze are they not? They have to go and attend prayers in mosque while women are allowed to pray at home are they not? What you don't understand is that men and women both have been given instructions according to their requirements and to that of society as a whole.

    If the Qur'an is not open to interpretation, let's see how you want to Interpret these quotes... Because I know how I interpret them and if you disagree with me, it simply proves my point....

    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all),"
    So what is the problem here? It lays down steps for a couple to resolve their marriage. Go do some further study. You can't leave a mark on the women which is hardly beating anyway. Plus this is the last resort. Plus we are told that those who hit their wives are not the best of men. Plus we follow the example of the Holy Prophet who never laid even a pinky finger on his wives. Plus the Arabic word signifies a physical restrainment, not actual beating as such necessarily.

    "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females"
    This is because the male is made responsible in Islam to provide for the female, the financial burden is greater on the male so they get a greater share. Furthermore the male spends on the woman anyway and is obliged to. While the women has no such obligation, even if she has millions in here bank, she is not under any obligation to spend it on the family. So this actually ensures the financial security of women. Seriously, go read the commentary or something.

    So surely, you either agree with me that the Qur'an is clearly sexist here, or you agree with me that these things are open to interpretation. Your call.
    How is this sexist? All it needs is some explanation because you have little to no knowledge of Islam. Nor do you care to look at the deeper meaning or significance nor do you look at the many other teachings in favour of women.

    Qur'an is clear as daylight while it has some verses which are susceptible to different interpretations. We are told to first read and understand the basic verses then we can understand the other verses.

    Problem is, those who have deviated, interpret the verses to suit themselves while ignoring the rest of the basic and fundamental teachings.
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    (Original post by NuckingFut)
    Yes I did read your post, did you read mine? As I have said, it is perfectly possible to research all the religions in a lifetime. As I have also said, you dont need to become a full on member of that religion to do so. Many people have done, and many more will continue to do so.
    Well if you feel as though none of the religions 'look right' to you, then that is completely your choice to remain an atheist. But please try to understand that there are many who DO convert and live happily. (Yes, its possible to be happy and religious at the same time. Shocking, right? :eek:)
    ok. I get your point, but you don't get mine. That doesn't matter.

    Where did the happiness thing come into it? Where did I say that people who convert aren't going to be happy? I never even implied that.

    I know it's possible to be happy and religious at the same time... I was religious for 16 years :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Well why is it culture to cover up genitals? Why is it culture to cover up breasts?
    I'm saying that for the same reason, it is considered appropriate in Islam to cover other body parts too.

    And no, I don't agree that the same societal expectations exist for men and women in western cultures. There is a societal difference between a woman who exposes certain body parts, and a man who does the same. For example, walk into any nightclub. I reckon you will see many many women exposing their arms, legs, backs etc. but you won't find many men doing the same. Why is this?

    A man exposing his legs and a woman exposing her legs are not considered to be the same thing in western society - nor are they considered the same in Islam either.



    Well first of all, if I were to disagree with your interpretation, this would still not prove that the Qur'an is open to interpretation. Yes, there are many ways people interpret certain statements, but the fact is that most of them are wrong. And they can be shown to be wrong because they are contradicted by some other explicit statement in the Qur'an.

    But in any case, I agree that men and women are treated and considered differently in Islam, and I'm sure any Muslim would say the same - and that it is for good reason that they are treated differently.
    Asking me why it is culture to cover up genitals is opening the can of worms that I mentioned not wanting to discuss. That is about western cultures and their expectations, not about inequality between men and women, which is what were discussing here.
    Expectations for men and women ARE equal. I could wear shorts, women could wear a skirt. Both men and women can expose their arms with vests, t shirts. In western cultures, breasts are considered inappropriate with no real reason for it, likewise, a man's rear end is considered inappropriate too so I don't think you can really consider this unequal. Generally, western people, both men and women, are free to expose most of their bodies if they so wish. This is not the case in Islam, where women are often made to feel they should cover everything, including their face. You won't see many men exposing their legs in nightclubs because it's not the fashion...but the point is, they COULD. They have that option. Saudi Arabian women don't.

    Well I could pick a million more quotes and we could discuss our different interpretations for each, at what point would you agree the Qur'an is open to interpretation? You can't say that "many interpretations are wrong" as a valid argument. Many consider your interpretation wrong. That's exactly my point. It's interpretable, thus nobody is actually really "right". There's no one to decisively say "that's right and that's wrong". Your interpretation is contradicted in the Qur'an also. This is the very problem with Holy Books.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    let's look at the proportion of men who commit rape, shall we? Covering yourself isn't going to stop a rapist as they're pretty sick and twisted anyway. That whole argument is like saying we should all wear stab vests because there are people out there who might stab us. Some men may not be able to control themselves, but it doesn't justify the Burka.

    But the flaw is that there is no "true" way Muslims are told to behave. A book thousands of years old in an ancient language? Believe it or not, it's more than a little bit open to interpretation. Who are you to say Muslims in Pakistan aren't true Muslims? Don't by your definition maybe, but I'm sure they don't consider you a true Muslim themselves. The fact is, all of this happens in the name of Islam.
    The burka is worn by extremists. The quran say's that you do not have to cover your face.
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    Why must you assume a god gave me the brain I have? How am I meant to do that properly without dedicating my whole life to one religion when for all you know I could be dedicating my life to the wrong one.

    Every religion asks me to pray for guidance and study their texts properly (whatever that is) and i'll be led to the truth and if I haven't then I haven't gone far enough.

    Maybe you should try a different religion and pray for guidance, it'll just lead you to a different god.

    Also, how do you know there's an afterlife? Why do you want to survive death so much?
    I pray to God to 'guide me on the right path' every single day. Why don't you try.

    I know for sure there is an afterlife because otherwise what would be the point of this life? I really don't wish to survive death at all, this world is like a hell anyway.

    This life shapes our next life and we make our own heaven or hell.
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    (Original post by Ayah)
    too stop our desires from being fullfilled
    (Original post by Ayah)
    In Islam, woman are allowed to be independent and we are allowed to express our opinions
    Cognitive dissonance much?

    In any case, it's pretty much accepted by all sociological authority that the abrahamic religions are patriarcal in nature.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    England isn't overwhelming Christian though, is it? Fewer than 1 in 10 attend religious services. I'd love to compare that to mosque attendance figures from Afghanistan. Plus, religion isn't used to justify politics in the UK, where as it is in Afghanistan. England doesnt claim to be a Christian country (even if David Cameron says so) and hasn't for a while, so it's a laughable comparison you've made.
    Historically it is though isn't it. Even the Prime Minister says so. Even Bishops still sit in the House of Lords. England does claim do be a Christian country, so the PM's word means nothing to you?

    Afghanistan is a backwards deviant, corrupt country. They are run by power hungry, radical, extremist clerics who are driven by hatred towards America and the need to maintain power and influence over the people.

    Everything they say or do is completely contrary to what is written in the Qur'an.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    I pray to God to 'guide me on the right path' every single day. Why don't you try.

    I know for sure there is an afterlife because otherwise what would be the point of this life? I really don't wish to survive death at all, this world is like a hell anyway.

    This life shapes our next life and we make our own heaven or hell.
    I've tried, there's nothing there. I'm talking to myself. It's simply meditation and cognitive bias that makes you think 'god' is actually talking to you imo.

    Why must there be a bigger point to this life? What stops our life from being absurd (not ridiculous, the idea of abusurdity). To me the fact that there is no after life (well evidence of one as the passport is death :confused:) makes this life special because it's finite. I pose you this, if there's an afterlife, what's the point of this one?

    You're only certain of this life. You don't know there's an afterlife, you're convincing yourself there is one.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    [3:8] "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —"

    Is this not clear enough for you?



    Men are expected to lower their gaze are they not? They have to go and attend prayers in mosque while women are allowed to pray at home are they not? What you don't understand is that men and women both have been given instructions according to their requirements and to that of society as a whole.



    So what is the problem here? It lays down steps for a couple to resolve their marriage. Go do some further study. You can't leave a mark on the women which is hardly beating anyway. Plus this is the last resort. Plus we are told that those who hit their wives are not the best of men. Plus we follow the example of the Holy Prophet who never laid even a pinky finger on his wives. Plus the Arabic word signifies a physical restrainment, not actual beating as such necessarily.



    This is because the male is made responsible in Islam to provide for the female, the financial burden is greater on the male so they get a greater share. Furthermore the male spends on the woman anyway and is obliged to. While the women has no such obligation, even if she has millions in here bank, she is not under any obligation to spend it on the family. So this actually ensures the financial security of women. Seriously, go read the commentary or something.



    How is this sexist? All it needs is some explanation because you have little to no knowledge of Islam. Nor do you care to look at the deeper meaning or significance nor do you look at the many other teachings in favour of women.

    Qur'an is clear as daylight while it has some verses which are susceptible to different interpretations. We are told to first read and understand the basic verses then we can understand the other verses.

    Problem is, those who have deviated, interpret the verses to suit themselves while ignoring the rest of the basic and fundamental teachings.
    It's perfectly clear for me. But what's to say you're not the one seeking wrong interpretation. That quote is all well and good, but it doesn't tell you you've found the right version of Islam now, does it? Ironically, that statement about interpretation can also be interpreted in any way possible. If it said "those who I ferret the Qur'an to be sexist are wrong" then fair enough, that's conclusive...but it doesn't.

    Men may be expected to pray in a Mosque and lower their case...but it doesn't quite stack up alongside being struck, being considered property and forced to cover your entire body.

    Any approval of physical violence is totally sick and unacceptable. Marriage problems are not resolved with a hand or a fist. If you believe in this then I've nothing more to say to you. Saying "oh well it only allows you to hit them gently" is laughable. No man should be hitting his wife full stop, that's not respectable.

    Pointing out that women inherit less because it is not their duty to provide for their family doesn't remove the element of sexism here. Islam sends out the message that women are below money, they are incapable of earning or providing...let me guess... They should stay home, cook food and raise lots of babies? If that isn't inequality, I don't know what is.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    Asking me why it is culture to cover up genitals is opening the can of worms that I mentioned not wanting to discuss. That is about western cultures and their expectations, not about inequality between men and women, which is what were discussing here.
    Expectations for men and women ARE equal. I could wear shorts, women could wear a skirt. Both men and women can expose their arms with vests, t shirts. In western cultures, breasts are considered inappropriate with no real reason for it, likewise, a man's rear end is considered inappropriate too so I don't think you can really consider this unequal. Generally, western people, both men and women, are free to expose most of their bodies if they so wish. This is not the case in Islam, where women are often made to feel they should cover everything, including their face. You won't see many men exposing their legs in nightclubs because it's not the fashion...but the point is, they COULD. They have that option. Saudi Arabian women don't.
    I'm not talking about freedom. I'm making the point that there is a difference between a man exposing certain body parts, and a woman exposing the same body parts, which is the reason why it is fashionable for one but not the other, and is the reason why Islam has different dress guidelines for men and women.

    The issue of freedom isn't really relevant. If a person wants to do something against Islam, they have the freedom not to be Muslims. (I'm not interested in what Saudi Arabian women can and can't do, because I don't claim to be an advocate for whatever Saudi Arabia imposes). The Qur'an does not force women to dress a certain way. It does not say "punish every woman who does not dress this way". It tells women what it thinks is the best way to dress. If women don't want to take any notice, that's their business.

    But even with regards to freedom, it's still not exactly the same for men and women in western society. For example, just tae a look at the TSR rules on inappropriate content. You are allowed to post pictures containing male nipples, but not female nipples. And no, it isn't because it is actually the breast which is considered inappropriate, because you are allowed to post pictures of breasts as long as they do not include the nipple.

    Well I could pick a million more quotes and we could discuss our different interpretations for each, at what point would you agree the Qur'an is open to interpretation? You can't say that "many interpretations are wrong" as a valid argument. Many consider your interpretation wrong. That's exactly my point. It's interpretable, thus nobody is actually really "right". There's no one to decisively say "that's right and that's wrong". Your interpretation is contradicted in the Qur'an also. This is the very problem with Holy Books.
    Well, that's like saying "I think 2+2=4, but many kids think 2+2=5. I think their answer is wrong, but equally they think my answer is wrong. So nobody is really right, it's down to interpretation".

    It doesn't matter whether many people consider the correct interpretation of the Qur'an to be wrong - it's still the correct interpretation i.e. the one intended by the author. With any given quote, you can tell which interpretations were not intended bu the author by reading the rest of the Qur'an. The issue is that not everybody knows what the correct interpretation is, not that there is no correct interpretation. The fact that there are man different beliefs on what the correct answer is doesn't mean there is no single correct answer, or that it is a matter of opinion. Some things are matters of fact, that many people get right, and many people get wrong.

    In your post below, you say "Tell that to the millions upon millions of Islamic women who do [cover their faces]... They don't interpret things that way." Well they're wrong then, if they think the Qur'an says you have to cover you face. Take a look at every single sentence in the Qur'an, there is not one that tells anyone to cover their face. Trying to say "The Qur'an tells women to cover their face" is like trying to say "Harry Potter says that the moon is made of cheese". It simply doesn't, no matter how much anyone may think it does. If they think it does, they probably haven't read it.
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    (Original post by keepinorder)
    The burka is worn by extremists. The quran say's that you do not have to cover your face.
    Tell that to the millions upon millions of Islamic women who do... They don't interpret things that way.

    (Original post by tif49)
    Historically it is though isn't it. Even the Prime Minister says so. Even Bishops still sit in the House of Lords. England does claim do be a Christian country, so the PM's word means nothing to you?

    Afghanistan is a backwards deviant, corrupt country. They are run by power hungry, radical, extremist clerics who are driven by hatred towards America and the need to maintain power and influence over the people.

    Everything they say or do is completely contrary to what is written in the Qur'an.
    Historically, yes. Now? Not remotely. It doesn't claim to be a Christian country, it claims to be a country where Christianity is the majority religion, but where most of the population are non religious. Like I said, look to religious service attendance figures. The PM's word has never meant anything to me. He's a man with his own agendas (like any PM), his word isn't the be all and end all. He's just trying to stay relevant to some of those Christians since he's bringing us Gay Marriage.

    Completely contrary to YOUR interpretation. Unfortunately, they appear able to justify their actions using the Qur'an through their own interpretation, and you've no grounding to say they're wrong.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I'm not talking about freedom. I'm making the point that there is a difference between a man exposing certain body parts, and a woman exposing the same body parts, which is the reason why it is fashionable for one but not the other, and is the reason why Islam has different dress guidelines for men and women.

    The issue of freedom isn't really relevant. If a person wants to do something against Islam, they have the freedom not to be Muslims. (I'm not interested in what Saudi Arabian women can and can't do, because I don't claim to be an advocate for whatever Saudi Arabia imposes). The Qur'an does not force women to dress a certain way. It does not say "punish every woman who does not dress this way". It tells women what it thinks is the best way to dress. If women don't want to take any notice, that's their business.



    Well, that's like saying "I think 2+2=4, but many kids think 2+2=5. I think their answer is wrong, but equally they think my answer is wrong. So nobody is really right, it's down to interpretation".

    It doesn't matter whether many people consider the correct interpretation of the Qur'an to be wrong - it's still the correct interpretation i.e. the one intended by the author. With any given quote, you can tell which interpretations were not intended bu the author by reading the rest of the Qur'an. The issue is that not everybody knows what the correct interpretation is, not that there is no correct interpretation. The fact that there are man different beliefs on what the correct answer is doesn't mean there is no single correct answer, or that it is a matter of opinion. Some things are matters of fact, that many people get right, and many people get wrong.
    But it's freedom that MATTERS. A man exposing his legs is exactly the same as a woman exposing her legs, I really don't get your point here. Both are totally acceptable. I don't care if you are or aren't claiming to be an advocate for Saudi Arabia, but if a woman were to walk around, alone, minus a Burka there, she'd probably get stoned, all in the name of Islam in a majority Muslim country. Remind me of the last time you heard of a British man being stoned because he wore shorts... nah, didn't think so. It's the freedom that matters... not, like you say, fashions that exist because of seasonal weather changes and fancy magazines.

    The difference is, 2+2= 4 is obviously wrong. You seem totally incapable of grasping this concept. Do you know the author personally? Have you met and spoken to them? No, you haven't. This means you can't be sure what the true interpretation actually is, only you can assume you know the intentions which is exactly what you're doing. You are in no position to claim what is right and what is wrong. With so many views, so many ideas expressed in one book, EVERYTHING contradicts, only you are blind to your own. You seem unable to detach from your own ideas here and see from a neutral perspective as I do.
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    so they don't turn into depressed alcoholic sluts
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    (Original post by James0507)
    Historically, yes. Now? Not remotely. It doesn't claim to be a Christian country, it claims to be a country where Christianity is the majority religion, but where most of the population are non religious. Like I said, look to religious service attendance figures. The PM's word has never meant anything to me. He's a man with his own agendas (like any PM), his word isn't the be all and end all. He's just trying to stay relevant to some of those Christians since he's bringing us Gay Marriage.
    And you think the Taliban's word in Afghanistan means anything to us? Are they not also men with their own agendas? Their word isn't the be all and end all either.
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    I pose you this, if there's an afterlife, what's the point of this one?
    The purpose of our life is ultimately to find our Creator and worship Him.

    To become close to Him as much as is possible. This is by inculcating good morals in ourselves and striving to rid ourselves of all evil and filth and becoming wholly righteous and good.

    The more better we become, the better our afterlife will be. If we corrupt ourselves in this life, our next life will also be corrupted and painful.

    We are here to develop ourselves and our souls and progress and become a mirror image of the Divine attributes and qualities.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    The purpose of our life is ultimately to find our Creator and worship Him.
    Assuption.


    To become close to Him as much as is possible. This is by inculcating good morals in ourselves and striving to rid ourselves of all evil and filth and becoming wholly righteous and good.
    Assumption.

    The more better we become, the better our afterlife will be. If we corrupt ourselves in this life, our next life will also be corrupted and painful.

    We are here to develop ourselves and our souls and progress and become a mirror image of the Divine attributes and qualities.
    Why? where is the soul?

    You don't get it do you? You're just making assumption after assumption with no justification for them. Why should any god judge us for what we've done in this one? Isn't meant to be all merciful? you know... forgive everyone.

    I must add, if that is your purpose then so be it. I'm not here to change that, if it brings peace to you that's good. Just know that it is not a universal purpose by any means.
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    (Original post by Ayah)
    how is islam strict on women:just because we were scarves and modest clothing to stop innapropiate thinking and desires from being developed. just because we dont mingle with single guys and go on dates and get drunk. this is all too stop us from sinning, too stop our desires from being fullfilled which could happen if we dont act & dress modestly.
    In Islam, woman are allowed to be independent and we are allowed to express our opinions, we are allowed to work and educate ourseleves. Just in 'certain' countries, their cultures clash with their faith, and this leads to many complications and restrictions on women, and it is typically blamed on their religion, when we actually should blame their culture&government..
    Well said
Updated: March 27, 2012
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