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Why is Islam so strict on women?

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    (Original post by tazarooni89)

    Well, that's like saying "I think 2+2=4, but many kids think 2+2=5. I think their answer is wrong, but equally they think my answer is wrong. So nobody is really right, it's down to interpretation".
    Sorry, but you can't equate mathematics with philosophy or theology. You really can't.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    It's perfectly clear for me. But what's to say you're not the one seeking wrong interpretation. That quote is all well and good, but it doesn't tell you you've found the right version of Islam now, does it? Ironically, that statement about interpretation can also be interpreted in any way possible. If it said "those who I ferret the Qur'an to be sexist are wrong" then fair enough, that's conclusive...but it doesn't.
    My interpretation isn't wrong because it is in accordance with the rest of the teachings of the Qur'an and they and the Hadith back it up.

    Men may be expected to pray in a Mosque and lower their case...but it doesn't quite stack up alongside being struck, being considered property and forced to cover your entire body.
    Considered property? Forced to cover your body? Clearly we haven't gotten anywhere. Nowhere is forced to do anything in Islam. Go do some personal study yourself man as it's clear you don't understand anything we tell you.

    Any approval of physical violence is totally sick and unacceptable. Marriage problems are not resolved with a hand or a fist. If you believe in this then I've nothing more to say to you. Saying "oh well it only allows you to hit them gently" is laughable. No man should be hitting his wife full stop, that's not respectable.
    Oh my word. You are half-blind aren't you? Did you even read what you yourself pasted? There are steps. First you talk, then you separate beds or stop marital relations. As a last resort, you may physically restrain or touch them without leaving a mark. It's not even a slap or a punch, it's more holding or tapping. Anyway no Muslim would do it if they had read the rest of the Islamic teaching as it is considered a low and shameful act. It's a last resort and if it doesn't work then you call people from her side and your side to arbitrate.

    It's ironic you make this accusation against Muslims while the cases of domestic violence are highest in the western countries.

    Pointing out that women inherit less because it is not their duty to provide for their family doesn't remove the element of sexism here. Islam sends out the message that women are below money, they are incapable of earning or providing...let me guess... They should stay home, cook food and raise lots of babies? If that isn't inequality, I don't know what is.
    Go study some history of your own country (assuming you're from England)

    Then tell me, when did women in England actually get the right of inheritance or the vote or divorce?

    Then tell me when did Muslim women get these rights?

    Let me know, then we can continue.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    But it's freedom that MATTERS. A man exposing his legs is exactly the same as a woman exposing her legs, I really don't get your point here. Both are totally acceptable. I don't care if you are or aren't claiming to be an advocate for Saudi Arabia, but if a woman were to walk around, alone, minus a Burka there, she'd probably get stoned, all in the name of Islam in a majority Muslim country. Remind me of the last time you heard of a British man being stoned because he wore shorts... nah, didn't think so. It's the freedom that matters... not, like you say, fashions that exist because of seasonal weather changes and fancy magazines.
    Well as I said, if freedom is what you think matters, then the Qur'an gives women freedom to dress however they like. It doesn't command punishments for women who choose not to wear a burka. So we agree on that anyway - everyone should be allowed to wear what they want. Saudi Arabia might think otherwise, but again, neither of us agree with them, so there's no point debating about that.

    The only point I'm making here is to explain the reason why Islamic dress guidelines are different for men and women. The sexual implications of a woman exposing certain body parts are not the same as when a man does the same thing.

    The difference is, 2+2= 4 is obviously wrong. You seem totally incapable of grasping this concept. Do you know the author personally? Have you met and spoken to them? No, you haven't. This means you can't be sure what the true interpretation actually is, only you can assume you know the intentions which is exactly what you're doing. You are in no position to claim what is right and what is wrong. With so many views, so many ideas expressed in one book, EVERYTHING contradicts, only you are blind to your own. You seem unable to detach from your own ideas here and see from a neutral perspective as I do.
    You seem to be looking at from a bit too neutral a perspective - from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what the Qur'an says and what it doesn't. You say that 2+2=5 is obviously wrong. And I say it is equally obviously wrong to say, for example, that the Qur'an orders women to cover their faces, to anyone who has read it.

    No, I don't know the author personally. But I do know that the author doesn't agree with certain interpretations of the Qur'an, because he says in his own book that he doesn't agree with those interpretations.

    You don't seem to be grasping the concept that the Qur'an is a book, which says some things and doesn't say other things. It is not a magic book that changes depending on who is reading it, or an imaginary book which says whatever a person imagines that it might say. If you claim that the Qur'an says something, then you are either right or wrong, It's not a matter of opinion, like saying "football is fun" or something like that.
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    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    Sorry, but you can't equate mathematics with philosophy or theology. You really can't.
    This isn't "philosophy" or "theology".
    It's a case of "Does this book say you should do X? Yes, or No?" There is a right answer, and a wrong answer.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    And you think the Taliban's word in Afghanistan means anything to us? Are they not also men with their own agendas? Their word isn't the be all and end all either.
    I don't claim to have any affiliation with the prime minister though, do I? I didn't vote for him and I never would. Politics and religion are entirely different situations. David Camerons word affects me because other people elected him, I have no say. You however, openly choose to follow the religion with which the Taliban are associated, that's your choice and you should prepare for the consequences.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    I don't claim to have any affiliation with the prime minister though, do I? I didn't vote for him and I never would. Politics and religion are entirely different situations. David Camerons word affects me because other people elected him, I have no say. You however, openly choose to follow the religion with which the Taliban are associated, that's your choice and you should prepare for the consequences.
    I don't claim to have any affiliation with the Taliban either.
    I choose to follow the religion with which the Taliban is associated, and you choose to be a part of British society, with which the Prime Minister is associated. Doesn't mean we have to agree with those people's take on Islam/British society.
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    Assuption.

    Assumption.

    Why? where is the soul?

    You don't get it do you? You're just making assumption after assumption with no justification for them. Why should any god judge us for what we've done in this one? Isn't meant to be all merciful? you know... forgive everyone.

    I must add, if that is your purpose then so be it. I'm not here to change that, if it brings peace to you that's good. Just know that it is not a universal purpose by any means.
    I'm not making assumption. I'm telling you the Islamic and religious viewpoint.

    God made man to emulate Himself. You ask for forgiveness, He forgives. He'll judge you with justice and reward you accordingly.

    A universal purpose it most certainly is though you do not know it.

    Look, imagine if you never reach this realisation and when you die, you suddenly realise you're not dead but alive and you come to this great realisation that you've just wasted your life harming your own soul and denying God.
    What if you wake after death and realise what your life was all about but you denied it without reason? How will you feel? God forbid it happens to you.
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    I think Islam is a beautiful religion for women. In theory, it removes the shackles of man, she doesn't need to dress a certain way to go out. She can just cover up and get along with her day absolutely fine. What's more is that as a wife, she isn't obligated to any financial responsibility or even any household chores- just raising the family.


    You know this is why you see older people in the papers celebrating their 90th Wedding anniversary but today you see more single parent households than ever before. Bad times.


    I think placing the yardstick to man for equality is in itself oppressive ironically because you still treating the man as superior. Most classical feminists look towards what defines women- a sadly forgotten notion in this entire debate.
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    (Original post by Ayah)
    how is islam strict on women:just because we were scarves and modest clothing to stop innapropiate thinking and desires from being developed. just because we dont mingle with single guys and go on dates and get drunk. this is all too stop us from sinning, too stop our desires from being fullfilled which could happen if we dont act & dress modestly.
    In Islam, woman are allowed to be independent and we are allowed to express our opinions, we are allowed to work and educate ourseleves. Just in 'certain' countries, their cultures clash with their faith, and this leads to many complications and restrictions on women, and it is typically blamed on their religion, when we actually should blame their culture&government..
    I feel really sorry for you feeling genuinely happy with these circumstances. It's plain sexist to ask (by saying "God" wants them to) women to cover up their faces, and not men. It's stupid to ask anyone to do that. I'm a strong believer that people should be educated to make the right decisions, and therefore I have to presume that these women wearing scarves over their faces are educated and know what they're doing, but it usually just saddens me that they've been indoctrinated since childhood like this. How many people do you know (women or men) that have said "I think I'll follow Islam now that seems like the right thing to do" compared to how many have just been brainwashed since birth by well-meaning parents?

    Saying that women have to cover themselves up to "stop inappropriate thinking" is ridiculous. It's like repressing free thought. Everyone is allowed to think what they want, it's how they act on it. Someone might find someone attractive but with a bit of free will they're not going to jump on them and start having sex with them or masturbating over their face. What should be blame about culture and government? It is religion that is putting these restrictions on clothing into place. The government and culture actually still allows Muslim women to wear scarves over their faces in day to day life, which although I think is stupid, I have to agree with because they should be free to do what they want regardless of whether it's based on an old sexist book or not. With regards to wearing scarves over their faces and working as a teacher or in other professions where you need your face to communicate, a visible face is as much part of the uniform as smart clothing. Kids can't learn how to communicate well when their teacher's face is covered up. Educate yourself and stop accepting everything without challenging it with facts. In fact as long as you challenge my statements with facts (and not, once again, as your holy book says) I'll be happy because it'll mean that you're learning how to be critical of what you've been taught since birth. I'm sure parents who "educate" their kids into a religion mean well but it's doing more harm than good.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    This isn't "philosophy" or "theology".
    It's a case of "Does this book say you should do X? Yes, or No?" There is a right answer, and a wrong answer.
    Not when it comes to religion. Or literature, for that matter. Is Heart of Darkness an example of colonial racism, as Chinua Achebe claims, or is it a exposure of man's innate potential for evil?

    Take, for example, the oft-touted "there is no compulsion in religion" phrase that you find in the Quran. This could be seen as a suggestion to be tolerant of religious beliefs, or, as many people do, it could be interpreted as meaning that Islam is so obviously true that conversion to it could not possibly be compulsion. The only way to have a clear-cut "yes" or "no" would be if religion had an empirical basis, which, by definition, it does not.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    My interpretation isn't wrong because it is in accordance with the rest of the teachings of the Qur'an and they and the Hadith back it up.



    Considered property? Forced to cover your body? Clearly we haven't gotten anywhere. Nowhere is forced to do anything in Islam. Go do some personal study yourself man as it's clear you don't understand anything we tell you.



    Oh my word. You are half-blind aren't you? Did you even read what you yourself pasted? There are steps. First you talk, then you separate beds or stop marital relations. As a last resort, you may physically restrain or touch them without leaving a mark. It's not even a slap or a punch, it's more holding or tapping. Anyway no Muslim would do it if they had read the rest of the Islamic teaching as it is considered a low and shameful act. It's a last resort and if it doesn't work then you call people from her side and your side to arbitrate.

    It's ironic you make this accusation against Muslims while the cases of domestic violence are highest in the western countries.



    Go study some history of your own country (assuming you're from England)

    Then tell me, when did women in England actually get the right of inheritance or the vote or divorce?

    Then tell me when did Muslim women get these rights?

    Let me know, then we can continue.
    And those who believe they should be beating women and killing non-believers find plenty of ways to back up their beliefs throughout the Qur'an too. You simply cannot accept that your view is only one angle on an open book (quite literally) can you?
    Women may not be forced in word to cover their body, but if a woman were to walk around minus a Burka in the 100% Muslim states of the world, there would be very dire consequences. Even in Islamic communities in the UK, it wouldn't go down well, so no actually, they don't have the freedom. You may claim I don't understand, but I think you simply twist what I say into what you want to hear. Answer me? If a woman were to walk around without a Burka in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan.. What would happen to her? You'll quite obviously say "they aren't true Muslims" because it's the only line of defence you have against the people you affiliate with.
    Excuse me? Reported cases of domestic violence are highest in western countries because we have a legal system that protects them! There is nowhere for middle-eastern women to turn to when they're abused, they accept it. The fact that the Qur'an allows for any kind of physical violence is sick. You can try and justify it all you want, but it's not achievable. Even as a very very last resort, it shouldn't be happening.

    I know my history thanks. In what country are female literacy rates equal to that of Men? In what country are women protected overwhelmingly from sexual and physical abuse by the legal system? England is no haven for women, but we're getting there. Until your Islamic countries can boast the points above, then we can continue.



    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Well as I said, if freedom is what you think matters, then the Qur'an gives women freedom to dress however they like. It doesn't command punishments for women who choose not to wear a burka. So we agree on that anyway - everyone should be allowed to wear what they want. Saudi Arabia might think otherwise, but again, neither of us agree with them, so there's no point debating about that.

    The only point I'm making here is to explain the reason why Islamic dress guidelines are different for men and women. The sexual implications of a woman exposing certain body parts are not the same as when a man does the same thing.



    You seem to be looking at from a bit too neutral a perspective - from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what the Qur'an says and what it doesn't. You say that 2+2=5 is obviously wrong. And I say it is equally obviously wrong to say, for example, that the Qur'an orders women to cover their faces, to anyone who has read it.

    No, I don't know the author personally. But I do know that the author doesn't agree with certain interpretations of the Qur'an, because he says in his own book that he doesn't agree with those interpretations.

    You don't seem to be grasping the concept that the Qur'an is a book, which says some things and doesn't say other things. It is not a magic book that changes depending on who is reading it, or an imaginary book which says whatever a person imagines that it might say. If you claim that the Qur'an says something, then you are either right or wrong, It's not a matter of opinion, like saying "football is fun" or something like that.
    But you think it's wrong, so you see in the Qur'an that it is wrong. Many see it right that a women should always wear a Burka, thus they see and justify this in the Qur'an through alternative interpretation. I'm not saying its magic..I'm saying it's old, long, stuffed full and is therefore used to fit agendas. This means that it's a fairly unreliable source for justifying your views. The fact that so many different lifestyles can be clearly justified by select parts of the Qur'an show this. The Qur'an isn't a book that says "football is fun", it's a book that says "football is a twisted and evil sun, and those who play football should have their feet cut off", and then says, 200 pages on, "to maim or injure another man is evil and wrong" and then says in another 100 pages, "Allah forbids a man to stop or judge another man for cutting off the foot when it is justified by the holy book". See my point? One big circle...where are you gonna jump in at?
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    (Original post by harmony_01)
    I think Islam is a beautiful religion for women. In theory, it removes the shackles of man, she doesn't need to dress a certain way to go out. She can just cover up and get along with her day absolutely fine. What's more is that as a wife, she isn't obligated to any financial responsibility or even any household chores- just raising the family.


    You know this is why you see older people in the papers celebrating their 90th Wedding anniversary but today you see more single parent households than ever before. Bad times.


    I think placing the yardstick to man for equality is in itself oppressive ironically because you still treating the man as superior. Most classical feminists look towards what defines women- a sadly forgotten notion in this entire debate.
    Just like the trans-atlantic slave trade was liberating for black people- it allowed them to live without the worry and hassle of running a successful cotton plantation, or dealing with taxes, or all the hassle of learning to read. Nope, they could happily live out their days in the lovely South Carolina sun, in the middle of nature.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    I'm not making assumption. I'm telling you the Islamic and religious viewpoint.

    God made man to emulate Himself. You ask for forgiveness, He forgives. He'll judge you with justice and reward you accordingly.

    A universal purpose it most certainly is though you do not know it.

    Look, imagine if you never reach this realisation and when you die, you suddenly realise you're not dead but alive and you come to this great realisation that you've just wasted your life harming your own soul and denying God.
    What if you wake after death and realise what your life was all about but you denied it without reason? How will you feel? God forbid it happens to you.
    lol lol lol

    It is not a universal purpose. You're just guessing.

    God forbid what happens to both of us if the christian god is up there, or maybe just nothing. We won't know we're dead... why fear it?

    There's no proof for this god so why should I believe it? sure ok.
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    (Original post by tif49)
    The purpose of our life is ultimately to find our Creator and worship Him.

    To become close to Him as much as is possible. This is by inculcating good morals in ourselves and striving to rid ourselves of all evil and filth and becoming wholly righteous and good.

    The more better we become, the better our afterlife will be. If we corrupt ourselves in this life, our next life will also be corrupted and painful.

    We are here to develop ourselves and our souls and progress and become a mirror image of the Divine attributes and qualities.
    Shouldn't you be living in a hovel in the middle east then, instead of Britain?
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    (Original post by Ayah)
    how is islam strict on women:just because we were scarves and modest clothing to stop innapropiate thinking and desires from being developed.
    If that's the reasoning behind it, why weren't we created to only get those desires for our spouse when we get married? Kind of a dickish move on Allah's part, in my opinion.
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    If that's the reasoning behind it, why weren't we created to only get those desires for our spouse when we get married? Kind of a dickish move on Allah's part,in my opinion.
    Some mumble jumble about free-will apparently, which is fair enough if he didn't send non-followers to hell for eternity. Not giving them entrance to heaven, fair enough, but infinite torture in hell? **** that
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    because it was created and is followed by ****ing brainwashed idiots, let's not dress it up. Expect stupid attitudes, this is a religion we're talking about, popular in a part of the world where education is poor.
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    (Original post by keyboard-warrior)
    Some mumble jumble about free-will apparently, which is fair enough if he didn't send non-followers to hell for eternity. Not giving them entrance to heaven, fair enough, but infinite torture in hell? **** that
    Dude...

    I mean, I'm glad he created me, but being tortured forever for acting upon urges he gave me? Out of order...
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    hi

    considering this is supposed to be the STUDENT room, and students are, atleast, supposed to have some sense, this thread is really ignorant. Many look at Islam through hearsay, and trust the media in everything they believe. Islam gives a lot of leniance to women.
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    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    Not when it comes to religion. Or literature, for that matter. Is Heart of Darkness an example of colonial racism, as Chinua Achebe claims, or is it a exposure of man's innate potential for evil?

    Take, for example, the oft-touted "there is no compulsion in religion" phrase that you find in the Quran. This could be seen as a suggestion to be tolerant of religious beliefs, or, as many people do, it could be interpreted as meaning that Islam is so obviously true that conversion to it could not possibly be compulsion. The only way to have a clear-cut "yes" or "no" would be if religion had an empirical basis, which, by definition, it does not.
    The answer to the Qur'anic quote that you have produced is not "be tolerant of everybody else's religious beliefs". You can prove that by showing instances where the Qur'an is not tolerant of certain other religious beliefs.
    It also does not mean "Islam is so obviously true that conversion could not possibly be compulsion", because the Qur'an elsewhere states that for some people, Islam is not obviously true (earlier on in the same chapter, in fact).

    The point being made is that one chooses their religion because the truth is clear to them, distinct from falsehood. You can see this by reading the sentence immediately after the one you quoted). A person becomes a Muslim because they have verified Islamic beliefs as being true. So a person who is "compelled" to belong to a religion does not really belong to that religion, because he has not really internally accepted and affirmed that its beliefs are true.
Updated: March 27, 2012
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