[Llamageddon]

(Original post by Einheri)
IMO atheism is as much faith as theism. Agnosticism is the only stance that doesn't require faith.

and baldness is a hair colour.

[amime]

(Original post by Llamageddon)
and baldness is a hari colour.

I think it works best if you say hair 'style'. But 'colour' works too.
As would 'off' being a tv channel. Not collecting stamps is a hobby etc etc.

[Einheri]

(Original post by Llamageddon)
and baldness is a hair colour.

To say "there is no god" is to make a statement without having sufficient evidence against the existence of a deity. To say "there is a god" is to do the inverse. Both statements are not arrived at by empirical evidence. The only way to comment on the existence or non-existence of a deity without requiring some degree of faith is to say "I don't know"; because we don't know for sure either way.

[Llamageddon]

(Original post by Einheri)
To say "there is no god" is to make a statement without having sufficient evidence against the existence of a deity. To say "there is a god" is to do the inverse. Both statements are not arrived at by empirical evidence. The only way to comment on the existence or non-existence of a deity without requiring some degree of faith is to say "I don't know"; because we don't know for sure either way.

To say "I don't believe in god" is a world apart from "there is no god". I don't personally know any atheists who believe with conviction that god definitely doesn't exist.

[TurboCretin]

(Original post by Einheri)
To say "there is no god" is to make a statement without having sufficient evidence against the existence of a deity. To say "there is a god" is to do the inverse. Both statements are not arrived at by empirical evidence. The only way to comment on the existence or non-existence of a deity without requiring some degree of faith is to say "I don't know"; because we don't know for sure either way.

Agnosticism is a position with respect to the existence or otherwise of a God, or gods. Atheism is a position with respect to the belief in the existence or otherwise of a God, or gods. It is possible to be both, and most atheists/agnostics are both, in fact.

[amime]

(Original post by Einheri)
To say "there is no god" is to make a statement without having sufficient evidence against the existence of a deity. To say "there is a god" is to do the inverse. Both statements are not arrived at by empirical evidence. The only way to comment on the existence or non-existence of a deity without requiring some degree of faith is to say "I don't know"; because we don't know for sure either way.

The vast majority of atheists do say that they don't know and therefore don't believe. They don't say "there is no god". Most atheists are also agnostic.

[joey11223]

You don't believe by default, only if introduced to specific religions will you follow them. If you're left to your own device you may believe in the idea of a higher being having created your surroundings, but not a specific man made faith.

Anyway I remember back in Yr 8 or 9 at school. I was good friends with a pretty strong Christian who obviously couldn't understand why I was an Atheist. Now interestingly enough both he and another guy (head of a Christian society at the school) both said they had a personal revelation which made them become Christian...despite their parents being involved in the Church. One of them actually said to the whole school in an assembly that he used to be a bad kid (..yeah..sure) and then on a camping trip when they were sitting around the fire, he closed his eyes and saw writing, made of fire, inside his eyelids. This said to him he was on the wrong path. The other said they had a dream when a person walked with them and introduced themselves as God and told them things.

So that's a rather direct and striking tale, YHWH revealed himself quite directly it seems..why assumed it was YHWH and not say..Vishnu, is another matter.

Since I was younger and not so firm in my opinion. I said to them that I would ask God for a sign and if I got one, I would of course believe. Both of them had had this sign, and both suggested I ask for it. I remember lying in bed that night and I put all the disbelieve out of my mind as best I could. I conscientiously "prayed" for some sort of sign like those two had, not even as direct as a man walking with me in my dreams, even just a light and the feeling of power from it, or a voice or something.

Never did get that sign they did. I suppose the Lord works in mysterious ways eh? Reveal yourself directly to those with a religious background as it is, but not to one without who is doubting your existence. I'm sure he'll explain his(well I say he, logically it has no gender) reasoning when I'm sent to Hell, Jahannam etc.

[Kage]

(Original post by joey11223)
You don't believe by default, only if introduced to specific religions will you follow them. If you're left to your own device you may believe in the idea of a higher being having created your surroundings, but not a specific man made faith.

Anyway I remember back in Yr 8 or 9 at school. I was good friends with a pretty strong Christian who obviously couldn't understand why I was an Atheist. Now interestingly enough both he and another guy (head of a Christian society at the school) both said they had a personal revelation which made them become Christian...despite their parents being involved in the Church. One of them actually said to the whole school in an assembly that he used to be a bad kid (..yeah..sure) and then on a camping trip when they were sitting around the fire, he closed his eyes and saw writing, made of fire, inside his eyelids. This said to him he was on the wrong path. The other said they had a dream when a person walked with them and introduced themselves as God and told them things.

So that's a rather direct and striking tale, YHWH revealed himself quite directly it seems..why assumed it was YHWH and not say..Vishnu, is another matter.

Since I was younger and not so firm in my opinion. I said to them that I would ask God for a sign and if I got one, I would of course believe. Both of them had had this sign, and both suggested I ask for it. I remember lying in bed that night and I put all the disbelieve out of my mind as best I could. I conscientiously "prayed" for some sort of sign like those two had, not even as direct as a man walking with me in my dreams, even just a light and the feeling of power from it, or a voice or something.

Never did get that sign they did. I suppose the Lord works in mysterious ways eh? Reveal yourself directly to those with a religious background as it is, but not to one without who is doubting your existence. I'm sure he'll explain his(well I say he, logically it has no gender) reasoning when I'm sent to Hell, Jahannam etc.

They were probably hallucinating for some reason or other or like a thread I have made, having a sleep paralysis episode. Seeing a fire at a camp site would automatically set the mind to think of fire. If they have been wondering about a god, low and behold, the brain made it up

[JezBerri]

Because we're not deluded.

[joey11223]

(Original post by Kage)
They were probably hallucinating for some reason or other or like a thread I have made, having a sleep paralysis episode. Seeing a fire at a camp site would automatically set the mind to think of fire. If they have been wondering about a god, low and behold, the brain made it up

Well as I say I am Atheist, I do not believe God came to them. In fact the boy who mentioned the fire behind the eyes thing is very questionable as apparently he told a very different story of a revelation to another group.

My point is more about if they were being truthful, why my yearning for a sign and genuine willingness to accept one isn't listened to, but they seem to get a very direct sign which cannot be questioned. I am just asking for a dream involving something like a bright light, a distant voice, quite vague, yet I don't even get that. But hey I was 13-14..a tad more naive. YHWH lost his chance...

[Kage]

(Original post by joey11223)
Well as I say I am Atheist, I do not believe God came to them. In fact the boy who mentioned the fire behind the eyes thing is very questionable as apparently he told a very different story of a revelation to another group.

My point is more about if they were being truthful, why my yearning for a sign and genuine willingness to accept one isn't listened to, but they seem to get a very direct sign which cannot be questioned. I am just asking for a dream involving something like a bright light, a distant voice, quite vague, yet I don't even get that. But hey I was 13-14..a tad more naive. YHWH lost his chance...

Have a few nights of not much sleep, sleep on your back, have some alcohol. You never know

[mariachi]

(Original post by joey11223)
You don't believe by default, only if introduced to specific religions will you follow them. If you're left to your own device you may believe in the idea of a higher being having created your surroundings, but not a specific man made faith.

Anyway I remember back in Yr 8 or 9 at school..

thanks for sharing your experience

I also find this whole thing of giving "signs" and "proofs" to selected people (most of whom were already "believers" anyway) as highly discriminatory and unjust.

Of course, believers are so used at justifying each and everything "God" does, that they will justify any sort of crime, let alone discriminations

Just think of the God/Abraham/Isaac(or Ishmael) saga : believers would kill their own son if ordered to do so by "God"

And they even admire how Abraham behaved in this whole horror story

Go figure.

[Insanity514]

(Original post by mariachi)
I think it's more complex than that

religion used to be an essential part of our identity : you were a Pole, so you were a Catholic. A Swede, therefore a Lutheran Protestant. A Russian, therefore an Orthodox Christian. Turk/Muslim, SriLankan/Buddhist etc etc

Of course there were also religious minorities within national boundaries, but usually these people were not considered as "true" Poles, "true" Russians etc (the Jews being the most well-known of these "shady" minorities)

With people moving around, settling everywhere, with people being less organically tied to their national/religious community, this deep link between religion and identity is in crisis.

To a certain extent, all religions are "true" : they are true for their followers, because they synthetize the experience of a people and of a culture (for the better and for the worse)

At the same time, since all religions are somehow true, none really is : this means, none is "objectively" true.

However, since "perfect objectivity" does not exist, we will never get to the bottom of this murky problem.

Best

I see where you're coming from.
It's all well and square to say a religion is true for the followers. Of course it is, because if it wasn't true to the followers then they wouldn't believe in it. However to me the only thing I care about is weather a creator exists or not. Ultimately this aspect of life (and religion) has to be true for everyone. A Christian may believe that God will allow him into heaven and therefore that is true to him. However you can't say because he believes that is true, when he dies he will go to heaven and similarly when other people die what happens to them after death is dependant on their belief during their life. So I think there is a perfect objectivity in this case. Ultimately a creator exists or he/she/it doesn't . And the conclusion of this statement (to which we may never know the answer as you said) is true for everyone no matter what they believe to be true.

It's true that religion used to be part of peoples' identity but I don't see what difference that makes now.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Insanity514)
I see where you're coming from.
It's all well and square to say a religion is true for the followers. Of course it is, because if it wasn't true to the followers then they wouldn't believe in it. However to me the only thing I care about is weather a creator exists or not. Ultimately this aspect of life (and religion) has to be true for everyone. A Christian may believe that God will allow him into heaven and therefore that is true to him. However you can't say because he believes that is true, when he dies he will go to heaven and similarly when other people die what happens to them after death is dependant on their belief during their life. So I think there is a perfect objectivity in this case. Ultimately a creator exists or he/she/it doesn't . And the conclusion of this statement (to which we may never know the answer as you said) is true for everyone no matter what they believe to be true.

It's true that religion used to be part of peoples' identity but I don't see what difference that makes now.

It makes a huge difference : religion is still very much part of people's identity. Yes, especially in "liberal" societies, where social control is more lax, people increasingly may experiment with "new" religions (new for us, that is), or do some "religious shopping"

During the 1950ies-1960ies, Western anti-conventional, "hip" people experimented with Buddhism - then came the New Age, the Hindu Gurus... for many people, Marxism-Leninism was also some sort of a substitute for religion...

Now, Islam is (apparently) all the rage. Why not, after all ?

What you seem to say, however, is that people may very well follow whatever religion they prefer, but one only is "true" : so, what people are doing, is simply taking out tickets in the great Cosmic-Religious lottery.

Once they die, they will find out if they have won or lost : and the stakes are very, very high....

Can you bear the suspense ?

[R4INBOW]

because they're atheist

[max.d.cox]

How on earth did Noah fit 2 of every living thing in his boat?!?!!

Why are we genetically 99% identical to chimps and why do we look similar?!!!?!!

Is the earth flat?!?

dinosaurs couldn't have existed?!!!!!!!!!

we had no idea back when the bible and other religious scripts were written.

if you believe in god you are on the same level as someone who goes against all theFACTS above.

you are ignorant.

[Gofre]

(Original post by max.d.cox)
How on earth did Noah fit 2 of every living thing in his boat?!?!!

Why are we genetically 99% identical to chimps and why do we look similar?!!!?!!

Is the earth flat?!?

dinosaurs couldn't have existed?!!!!!!!!!

we had no idea back when the bible and other religious scripts were written.

if you believe in god you are on the same level as someone who goes against all theFACTS above.

you are ignorant.

Luckily for all of us, biblical literalism is dying off. Fewer and fewer people are believing in the genesis account and its accompanying absurdities across the majority of Europe, now we just need the US to follow suit.

[blue n white army]

If any evidence was provided it would be dismissed by religious people as the work of the devil. Darwins theory of evolution disproved creationism which poo poos the very beginning of the bible.

It seems that science can find flaws in most of the bible which effectively disproves the god that christians believe in. Although this can easily be brushed under the carpet by those who don't want to listen.

[aneemilie]

I am an agnostic and an atheist. I don't believe in God, but I'm open for religion. I just haven't found any religion I agree and believe in yet, and I'm not looking for a religion - I like to live life day by day, and do what I want to without 'sinning'.

[Chloe xxx]

(Original post by Bright.Inspiration.)
Oh dear..

What about the many little innocent children who get left alone as orphans, go through violence and abuse, and live horrible lives? What about people who are nice but have no friends? What about people who's families are dysfunctional and abusive?
Did god 'forget' about them?
Or perhaps you and I were special and thus we got all those things?

This is exactly why my belief in God ceased as I left childhood. My dad was a devout Catholic who always tried to instill God and Catholicism into me and my sisters profoundly, but my mum didnt believe in God, only the existance of Jesus as a human being. She encouraged me to believe in Jesus' story but would always hint that 'God cannot be proven'. As I got older she would be more specific and point out these exact inhumane errors in God's ways.

If God was all powerful, and all loving and invented us all, why does he give innocent children cancer? Why does he allow diseases that kill? Why does he give some people a fantastic, fulfilling life and others a rubbish one? If God exists, why is there so much horror in the world?

I then realised that even if God did exist, he was cruel and wasnt the all mighty being worthy of worship my dad and his family believe he is.

Atheists have won this argument hands down, its actually been quite amusing reading it so far.

When I was little, I loved mermaids. I loved the idea of mermaids so much I convinced myself they existed. I mean come on, many sailors from long gone in the past claim to have seen them, they are written about in old books from before my time, just because there is no scientific or recent proof of them existing doesnt mean they arn't real, right?

This is where the religious argument fails miserably, along with many other instances like:

Say you are a Muslim. Why do you believe in Islam but not Christianity? What evidence do you have that Islam is the 'right' religion and Christianity is false?

None at all. It is a product of upbringing heavily influenced by where you were born. Its as simple as that.