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Loughborough Banking Degree, good enough for IB?

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Reply 40
Original post by Spurious
No, Research is a back office role.
Front Office makes money, back and middle office support them. Hence, Research is a back office role.

And back office is not a bad thing or anything. It's just not as rewarding in my opinion.


lol are you joking? I though you said you are currently working in a bank?

Research is FO.
Reply 41
Original post by Spurious
No, Research is a back office role.
Front Office makes money, back and middle office support them. Hence, Research is a back office role.

And back office is not a bad thing or anything. It's just not as rewarding in my opinion.


from wikipedia

Front office

Investment banking (corporate finance) is the traditional aspect of investment banks which also involves helping customers raise funds in capital markets and giving advice on mergers and acquisitions (M&A). This may involve subscribing investors to a security issuance, coordinating with bidders, or negotiating with a merger target. Another term for the investment banking division is corporate finance, and its advisory group is often termed mergers and acquisitions. A pitch book of financial information is generated to market the bank to a potential M&A client; if the pitch is successful, the bank arranges the deal for the client. The investment banking division (IBD) is generally divided into industry coverage and product coverage groups. Industry coverage groups focus on a specific industry, such as healthcare, industrials, or technology, and maintain relationships with corporations within the industry to bring in business for a bank. Product coverage groups focus on financial products, such as mergers and acquisitions, leveraged finance, project finance, asset finance and leasing, structured finance, restructuring, equity, and high-grade debt and generally work and collaborate with industry groups on the more intricate and specialized needs of a client.

Sales and trading: On behalf of the bank and its clients, a large investment bank's primary function is buying and selling products. In market making, traders will buy and sell financial products with the goal of making money on each trade. Sales is the term for the investment bank's sales force, whose primary job is to call on institutional and high-net-worth investors to suggest trading ideas (on a caveat emptor basis) and take orders. Sales desks then communicate their clients' orders to the appropriate trading desks, which can price and execute trades, or structure new products that fit a specific need. Structuring has been a relatively recent activity as derivatives have come into play, with highly technical and numerate employees working on creating complex structured products which typically offer much greater margins and returns than underlying cash securities. In 2010, investment banks came under pressure as a result of selling complex derivatives contracts to local municipalities in Europe and the US.[2] Strategists advise external as well as internal clients on the strategies that can be adopted in various markets. Ranging from derivatives to specific industries, strategists place companies and industries in a quantitative framework with full consideration of the macroeconomic scene. This strategy often affects the way the firm will operate in the market, the direction it would like to take in terms of its proprietary and flow positions, the suggestions salespersons give to clients, as well as the way structurers create new products. Banks also undertake risk through proprietary trading, performed by a special set of traders who do not interface with clients and through "principal risk"—risk undertaken by a trader after he buys or sells a product to a client and does not hedge his total exposure. Banks seek to maximize profitability for a given amount of risk on their balance sheet. The necessity for numerical ability in sales and trading has created jobs for physics, mathematics and engineering Ph.D.s who act as quantitative analysts.

Research is the division which reviews companies and writes reports about their prospects, often with "buy" or "sell" ratings. While the research division may or may not generate revenue (based on policies at different banks), its resources are used to assist traders in trading, the sales force in suggesting ideas to customers, and investment bankers by covering their clients. Research also serves outside clients with investment advice (such as institutional investors and high net worth individuals) in the hopes that these clients will execute suggested trade ideas through the sales and trading division of the bank, and thereby generate revenue for the firm. There is a potential conflict of interest between the investment bank and its analysis, in that published analysis can affect the bank's profits. Hence in recent years the relationship between investment banking and research has become highly regulated, requiring a Chinese wall between public and private functions.

[edit] Other businesses that an investment bank may be involved in

Global transaction banking is the division which provides cash management, custody services, lending, and securities brokerage services to institutions. Prime brokerage with hedge funds has been an especially profitable business, as well as risky, as seen in the "run on the bank" with Bear Stearns in 2008.

Investment management is the professional management of various securities (shares, bonds, etc.) and other assets (e.g., real estate), to meet specified investment goals for the benefit of investors. Investors may be institutions (insurance companies, pension funds, corporations etc.) or private investors (both directly via investment contracts and more commonly via collective investment schemes e.g., mutual funds). The investment management division of an investment bank is generally divided into separate groups, often known as Private Wealth Management and Private Client Services.

Merchant banking can be called "very personal banking"; merchant banks offer capital in exchange for share ownership rather than loans, and offer advice on management and strategy. Merchant banking is also a name used to describe the private equity side of a firm.Merchant Banking: Past and Present Current examples include Defoe Fournier & Cie. and JPMorgan's One Equity Partners and the original J.P. Morgan & Co. Rothschilds, Barings, Warburgs and Morgans were all merchant banks. (Originally, "merchant bank" was the British English term for an investment bank.)

Commercial banking: see commercial bank.
Reply 42
Original post by Hackett
lol are you joking? I though you said you are currently working in a bank?

Research is FO.


haha, I guess that proves my previous point.


Then Research is indeed front office.
Original post by Spurious
This kind of reasoning is probably the dumbest, yet most used on here.

There is no causal connection between the two things.
If you can name every front office role, you are not more qualified than someone else, because no one in the entire bank cares if you can.

I would guess that there is a good portion of people working in the different banks, who had no ****ing idea about the job they were applying to and yet still got it.

There is no causal relationship between knowing about banking (at a very basic level at the very least) and success in banking? You may be right, but there is a strong correlation because of other variables such as interest in the industry, resourcefulness, intelligence etc. and both variables.

I'll agree that there are people who got placed on trading desks they didn't know existed or in an IBD group they knew nothing about, but they knew the difference between trading and IBD when they came in or they wouldn't have got the job.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 44
Original post by Teenage Pirate
There is no causal relationship between knowing about banking (at a very basic level at the very least) and success in banking? You may be right (in the sense that if you were to conduct this experiment there would be endogeneity and the results wouldn't be that useful), but there is a strong correlation because of other variables such as interest in the industry, resourcefulness, intelligence etc. and both variables.

I'll agree that there are people who got placed on trading desks they didn't know existed or in an IBD group they knew nothing about, but they knew the difference between trading and IBD when they came in or they wouldn't have got the job.


Interest in the industry? Intelligence? Resourcefulness?
This is complete bull****.

I had no idea Reserach was a front office position, despite having done an internship in fixed income research. Yet I got that done and I am doing another internship now, despite having no idea what front office jobs are.

There are things that matter and there are things only idiots care about. They dont hire someone who can explain the job to others, they hire someone who can get the job done. If he knows how they interact within the bank or where the are positioned, fine, if not, he will be able to figure it out easily.

You are not a better candidate, because you are interested in banking.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Spurious
Interest in the industry? Intelligence? Resourcefulness?
This is complete bull****.

I had no idea Reserach was a front office position, despite having done an internship in fixed income research. Yet I got that done and I am doing another internship now, despite having no idea what front office jobs are.

There are things that matter and there are things only idiots care about. They dont hire someone who can explain the job to others, they hire someone who can get the job done. If he knows how they interact within the bank or where the are positioned, fine, if not, he will be able to figure it out easily.

You are not a better candidate, because you are interested in banking.

The fact that you didn't know how research makes money probably isn't something you should be bragging about. If you want to make money, you should understand how your business area makes money.

Your understanding of the job probably didn't matter that much at intern level when you were doing data runs, updating databases and formatting charts. Once you start talking to clients or coming up with ideas on your own you need a better understanding. You can't put an idiot in front of a client: if the client asks about something outside of your team's expertise, you need to have some idea of who to refer them to which requires knowledge of the other research teams etc.. How do you think banks work? Teams work together to provide clients full service.

And if you read my previous post, I said I agreed that you probably aren't a better candidate because you're interested in banking. If you're interested in banking you're probably a better candidate in other ways.
Reply 46
Original post by Teenage Pirate
The fact that you didn't know how research makes money probably isn't something you should be bragging about. If you want to make money, you should understand how your business area makes money.

Your understanding of the job probably didn't matter that much at intern level when you were doing data runs, updating databases and formatting charts. Once you start talking to clients or coming up with ideas on your own you need a better understanding. You can't put an idiot in front of a client: if the client asks about something outside of your team's expertise, you need to have some idea of who to refer them to which requires knowledge of the other research teams etc.. How do you think banks work? Teams work together to provide clients full service.

And if you read my previous post, I said I agreed that you probably aren't a better candidate because you're interested in banking. If you're interested in banking you're probably a better candidate in other ways.


And why would I need to know all of that before getting a 1st year analyst position?
Exactly, I wouldnt.

You learn all of that stuff on the job.
To get the job, you need to be not a mouthbreather and not be a smartass.
You need to get along with people. That's why the described reasoning is poison and just false.

I am not really bragging about getting a job, because everyone can, I am trying to motivate the people who have to read over and over again, that you need to know which division does what and how trading works and what front office works, to still apply, because at the end of the day, you really dont.
Heres a credible solution

Undergrad

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£20,000 living costs (3 years)

Masters (LSE)
£21,000
£10,000 (london 1y living costs)

£78,000 total education.

Ultimate nerd!
Reply 48
Everyone has a fall back so after a masters you will have to do accountancy or something like that instead.
i meant to neg that but i poss'd by accident.

people like you are what is wrong with our country's educational system
Original post by rugbyladosc
i meant to neg that but i poss'd by accident.

people like you are what is wrong with our country's educational system


Agreed. Take the Asian approach.

Just keep doing more MSc's until someone offers you a job.

3x MSc? Still can't get a job? Dammit I need moar degreez.

Cuz If I haz moar gradez I r can get moar jobz.
Reply 51
Original post by rugbyladosc
i meant to neg that but i poss'd by accident.

people like you are what is wrong with our country's educational system


so what's your approach then?

not getting a job? and going on benefits?
Original post by Spurious
And why would I need to know all of that before getting a 1st year analyst position?
Exactly, I wouldnt.

You learn all of that stuff on the job.
To get the job, you need to be not a mouthbreather and not be a smartass.
You need to get along with people. That's why the described reasoning is poison and just false.

I am not really bragging about getting a job, because everyone can, I am trying to motivate the people who have to read over and over again, that you need to know which division does what and how trading works and what front office works, to still apply, because at the end of the day, you really dont.


Ok, so back to the original point:

You're competing against people who know about banks. Knowing the stuff is a signal for other qualities. You don't think the applicant pool is full of people who are easy to get on with, smart and all that stuff? They also want people who aren't going to drop out crying half a year in, which is what just about everyone who has no expectation of IBD and gets into IBD does. (as an example)
Reply 53
IBD is almost exclusively filled with people who got really good grades, because they are more likely to be able to work the hours.

Trading is filled with people who are quick with coming up with decisions. It doesnt matter if it's wrong, they want someone who has an opinion/solution asap. Sales is full with people who can sell to others, sweet talking, etc.

Do you see how none of this relates to the organigram of a bank?
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Original post by Spurious
IBD is almost exclusively filled with people who got really good grades, because they are more likely to be able to work the hours.

Trading is filled with people who are quick with coming up with decisions. It doesnt matter if it's wrong, they want someone who has an opinion/solution asap. Sales is full with people who can sell to others, sweet talking, etc.

Do you see how none of this relates to the organigram of a bank?


For once I actually agree with TP - you should really know how the different areas of a bank interlink. Fair enough it wont matter too much if you don't know how FX options may impact bonds - but fundamentals like where research sits is definately necessary.

If you were asked this in an interview, and you just spouted all that stuff about 'learning on the job' I highly doubt you would make it through.
Reply 56
Christ - Knowing how interlinked the areas are within a bank (More so On the S&T side) is paramount. Especially within Sales as you are essentially the middle man between the research guy and the trader.

I don't understand how the guy above did an internship in FI Research and thought that he was sitting in a BO role. The Research is released to the Clients via the Sales guy and is also published on Bloomberg. Moreover, with volume declining so much recently - alot of trading is being done in - house to save costs or to hedge clients trades, how can this be done if you don't know what the other products/desks are doing? If this is about an internship then fair enough...you don't have to know what the differnet areas of the bank do but still, it's something which you should pick up fairly swiftly.
Original post by Spurious
IBD is almost exclusively filled with people who got really good grades, because they are more likely to be able to work the hours.

Trading is filled with people who are quick with coming up with decisions. It doesnt matter if it's wrong, they want someone who has an opinion/solution asap. Sales is full with people who can sell to others, sweet talking, etc.

Do you see how none of this relates to the organigram of a bank?


you're not getting the point - there are people with those qualities who know how a bank works as well
Reply 58
Original post by Tsunami2011
I have friends with offers for that course and yeah AAB is the requirement.. you'd probably need at least AAA predictions though to be in with a shot!


Mate apply for Accounting and Finance at LSE, A level Maths is recommended but not required, you will however have to drop your options module in 1st year and take an extra maths course but A&F at LSE puts you in top stead for IB.

Thats what I did this year, I don't have A level or IB HL maths but managed to get an offer. Its not impossible as long as your PS and predicted grades are great. You have to let your passion come through in your PS, which you obviously have.
Reply 59
Sorry about that Tsunami quotes wrong post haha,

Mate apply for Accounting and Finance at LSE, A level Maths is recommended but not required, you will however have to drop your options module in 1st year and take an extra maths course but A&F at LSE puts you in top stead for IB.

Thats what I did this year, I don't have A level or IB HL maths but managed to get an offer. Its not impossible as long as your PS and predicted grades are great. You have to let your passion come through in your PS, which you obviously have.

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