Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Having been here for hundreds, if not thousands of years, I would say that pheasants can pretty much be counted as native to Britain.(Original post by redferry)
Pheasants are not native to the UK, and they are not endangered in their natural home range (Asia and Eastern Europe)
It's pretty common consensus that pheasants would become extinct (in the UK) without shooting, as would cows, pigs, chickens etc. The argument is more normally over whether the animals would be better off as they are now, or entirely extinct. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Approximately 2000-2100 years ish. That still doesn't make them native, as you said they only survive through constant reintroductions.(Original post by FrogInABog)
Having been here for hundreds, if not thousands of years, I would say that pheasants can pretty much be counted as native to Britain.
It's pretty common consensus that pheasants would become extinct (in the UK) without shooting, as would cows, pigs, chickens etc. The argument is more normally over whether the animals would be better off as they are now, or entirely extinct.
Yes but we don't need pheasants, they aren't a big part of the food chain and nothing would die out if they went extinct. They are pointless, only here so people can shoot them. I don't really see why it would matter if they went extinct in the UK, although they never would, they have never been so much as threatened.
they wouldn't be entirely extinct, they would still live a happy healthy life in their native home range. Most of the time I feel the majority of food animals would be better off extinct the way they are treated. But again, that is an entirely separate point, they could not live in the wild, we created them, they are no longer adapted to their natural environment.
Although most UK wildlife is totally bastardised and pointless in the main thanks to the Romans....and then we went abroad and did the same elsewhere, sigh
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?The idea is that if there is a market for hunting, the species will be kept alive through breeding programmes, as it would be financially sustainable and viable. It wouldn't help the individual animal, but the species as a whole.(Original post by cl_steele)
may i ask how shooting these animals will help 'save the species'? at best it wont have any effect it cant 'save them'...
Whether or not it's right is a totally different matter... -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?the fact its got to that point is questionable though.(Original post by FrogInABog)
The idea is that if there is a market for hunting, the species will be kept alive through breeding programmes, as it would be financially sustainable and viable. It wouldn't help the individual animal, but the species as a whole.
Whether or not it's right is a totally different matter...
but my point is it cant be benefitial for the species as any growth in their population due to this breeding programme is immediately offset by the fact they all get shot eventually anyway hence why it cant benefit them and at best can only keep the population stable. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?I imagine that the owners of the land/animals would allow the population to grow significantly, as more animals = more shooting = more money.(Original post by cl_steele)
the fact its got to that point is questionable though.
but my point is it cant be benefitial for the species as any growth in their population due to this breeding programme is immediately offset by the fact they all get shot eventually anyway hence why it cant benefit them and at best can only keep the population stable.
As it is, a lot of these savannah animals are on the brink anyway, and with illegal poaching, the last members of their species could easily be killed anyway. At least with regulated hunting, you get a safe and secure breeding programme, which would not only keep the species in existence, but also allow the chance for expansion and possible reintroduction later on. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Do yourself a favour red, leave this thread as you will just get frustrated by the ignorance of arm chair know it alls. I agree with much of what you say.(Original post by redferry)
I'm not assuming at all, I do study this topic (conservation) in detail through my course and know one hell of a lot more than you do about it. I just wrote a 5000 word essay on the genetic effects of harvest - a point, by the way, that I made and you did not bother addressing. I will be working in the field soon and have a PhD lined up on a similar topic.
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?I just hate the way these yahoo 'macho' guys try and justify fulfilling their bloodlust to get their kicks with the lie that it aids in conservation. Like they are some sort of saint...if they cared they would donate the money and not kill the animals.(Original post by SubAtomic)
Do yourself a favour red, leave this thread as you will just get frustrated by the ignorance of arm chair know it alls. I agree with much of what you say. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Yeah completely agree, it is only those wealthy and powerful people who care about such things whom can make big things happen, big shame, hopefully one day I will be. People will find all sorts of stupid evidence to try to justify their barbaric behaviour. Thought we were an evolved species but some seem to be evolving a little slower than others.(Original post by redferry)
I just hate the way these yahoo 'macho' guys try and justify fulfilling their bloodlust to get their kicks with the lie that it aids in conservation. Like they are some sort of saint...if they cared they would donate the money and not kill the animals. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?lol I see what this is. You're nothing but a troll. You haven't researched **** on **** and we both ****ing know it. Do yourself a favor and stop lying. Don't pretend to be an expert because I see through your bull.(Original post by redferry)
I'm not assuming at all, I do study this topic (conservation) in detail through my course and know one hell of a lot more than you do about it. I just wrote a 5000 word essay on the genetic effects of harvest - a point, by the way, that I made and you did not bother addressing. I will be working in the field soon and have a PhD lined up on a similar topic.
The first point - Maybe my opinion but one held by hundreds of conservationists the world over. Wild animals are not there for our pleasure.
Well we shall see what response I get to my emails shan't we?
They didn't say some did in that video, they said they shipped some out to ranches elsewhere, I know for a fact there has only been one successful reintroduction programme of the scimitar horned oryx because we studied this exact case last year.
For god's sake do you not understand the food chain? Extinction of one plant could endanger tens of other species. I purposely put plants there - plants unused to intense grazing by large numbers of herbivores that have been extinct in North America for millions of years.
Reptiles and amphibians - the most vulnerable group of animals in the world. There are two endangered species of salamander that live in the area and salamander are VERY sensitive to environmental change - bit of extra dung in the waterways and they are gone.
Those ranches had ostriches - well known to munch on lizards, and insects - you can also see a list of endangered invertebrates in Texas on that site.
Wolves and bears - which I am sure would be shot on sight anywhere near these precious animals.
You're getting desperate. Stop twisting my words. The point is that they have sent some of the animals back for reintroduction. That's a fact. To say otherwise just paints you as a liar. The other point is worthless because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There would be nothing to reintroduce is it weren't for hunting. The conservationists in Africa are clearly inept at what they are doing. Not the texans' issue.
The only person that doesn't understand the food chain is you. These are enclosed hunting grounds. Are you so foolish as to think that bears and wolves are roaming in the same grounds? Clearly you are. There would be nothing left to hunt and no way for people to make money genious
You don't know where the vast majority of the amphibians are in reference to the hunting grounds and you admittedly don't know what steps they take to monitor this. In short, you know absolutely nothing
Don't waste my time. Do some research on these matters before you open your mouth with so called "facts" which are clearly just things that "redferry" made up.
You're astonishing
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?No I actually have. I do a degree in Zoology...I can send you my work and conclusions if you would really like once my degree is finished. I would link you to some papers but I doubt you would have access to them. There are some pretty interesting facts in there, although quite a lot is about fishing, which has similar sorts of effects as it is also a form of selective harvest.(Original post by Sharri5)
lol I see what this is. You're nothing but a troll. You haven't researched **** on **** and we both ****ing know it. Do yourself a favor and stop lying. Don't pretend to be an expert because I see through your bull.
You're getting desperate. Stop twisting my words. The point is that they have sent some of the animals back for reintroduction. That's a fact. To say otherwise just paints you as a liar. The other point is worthless because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There would be nothing to reintroduce is it weren't for hunting. The conservationists in Africa are clearly inept at what they are doing. Not the texans' issue.
The only person that doesn't understand the food chain is you. These are enclosed hunting grounds. Are you so foolish as to think that bears and wolves are roaming in the same grounds? Clearly you are. There would be nothing left to hunt and no way for people to make money genious
You don't know where the vast majority of the amphibians are in reference to the hunting grounds and you admittedly don't know what steps they take to monitor this. In short, you know absolutely nothing
Don't waste my time. Do some research on these matters before you open your mouth with so called "facts" which are clearly just things that "redferry" made up.
You're astonishing
Have they sent them for reintroduction? That isn't mentioned. They just said they sent them to a ranch in their native country =/
These ranches are by some distance not the only thing keeping them alive, there are more outside these ranches than there are in them. And they are not inept, they are successfully keeping and breeding thousands of the animals in fenced areas in their natural habitat - far better than what the texans are doing.
Yes but by keeping the bears and wolves out you are depriving them of their habitat and therefore space and food, thus threatening them further.
Also you are pretty stupid if you think wolves would wipe out that many animals.
Actually salamanders do live across that range, i checked the ranch locations against their range on arkive.
You are so ignorant it is unreal. Maybe when you have done a conservation based degree I might listen to something you say. But as it is its just ignorant drivel spilling from your mouth as you masturbate to the thought of shooting an animal in the face. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?As though I'd believe anything you send me. It's pretty obvious you're lying.(Original post by redferry)
No I actually have. I do a degree in Zoology...I can send you my work and conclusions if you would really like once my degree is finished. I would link you to some papers but I doubt you would have access to them. There are some pretty interesting facts in there, although quite a lot is about fishing, which has similar sorts of effects as it is also a form of selective harvest.
Have they sent them for reintroduction? That isn't mentioned. They just said they sent them to a ranch in their native country =/
These ranches are by some distance not the only thing keeping them alive, there are more outside these ranches than there are in them. And they are not inept, they are successfully keeping and breeding thousands of the animals in fenced areas in their natural habitat - far better than what the texans are doing.
Yes but by keeping the bears and wolves out you are depriving them of their habitat and therefore space and food, thus threatening them further.
Also you are pretty stupid if you think wolves would wipe out that many animals.
Actually salamanders do live across that range, i checked the ranch locations against their range on arkive.
You are so ignorant it is unreal. Maybe when you have done a conservation based degree I might listen to something you say. But as it is its just ignorant drivel spilling from your mouth as you masturbate to the thought of shooting an animal in the face.
You're the one who's been going on and on about what they aren't doing. I've been saying it is unclear and you cannot judge. However, you still insist on jumping to conclusions. How pathetic
See this is what I'm talking about. How can you say that the ranches in africa are doing better than the texans when you don't even know what the **** the texans are doing? Once again, educate yourself.
That's life. This is private land and the texas ranchers can do what they want with it. My family has a lot of land. We fence it in to keep what we want in in, and what we want out out. It's common sense. People have a right to protect their property. What part of that are you not understanding?
You're illiterate or a boldfaced liar. You choose. Those animals are not cheap to keep and it is a business for them. Read this carefully: IT IS A HUNTING RANCH. What part of that don't you ****ing understand? Why is it so hard for you to understand what a hunting ranch is? Look it up ffs. This is how I know you're lying about your so called degree. No one can be this foolish to not understand the concept of a hunting ranch. The idea that they would risk their investment for wolves when their is plenty of land for these wolves to go is grade A stupid. but coming from you .. .
What do your masturbation habits have to do with this thread? If you masturbate at the thought of shooting animals that's your deal-- not mine. I see now that not only are you ignorant, but you're also some type of sexual freak. You're disgusting and the fact that you even think that it is appropriate to talk about your masturbation habits on this thread is pathetic. The only reason you insist on telling me how often you masturbate is to cover the fact that you know **** about this topic.
Do yourself a favor and Stop Lying. You're embarrassing yourself
Like it or not, hunting is alive and well. You'll just have to get over it
Spoiler:ShowLast edited by Sharri5; 21-03-2012 at 02:26. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Why in hells name would I lie?(Original post by Sharri5)
As though I'd believe anything you send me. It's pretty obvious you're lying.
You're the one who's been going on and on about what they aren't doing. I've been saying it is unclear and you cannot judge. However, you still insist on jumping to conclusions. How pathetic
See this is what I'm talking about. How can you say that the ranches in africa are doing better than the texans when you don't even know what the **** the texans are doing? Once again, educate yourself.
That's life. This is private land and the texas ranchers can do what they want with it. My family has a lot of land. We fence it in to keep what we want in in, and what we want out out. It's common sense. People have a right to protect their property. What part of that are you not understanding?
You're illiterate or a boldfaced liar. You choose. Those animals are not cheap to keep and it is a business for them. Read this carefully: IT IS A HUNTING RANCH. What part of that don't you ****ing understand? Why is it so hard for you to understand what a hunting ranch is? Look it up ffs. This is how I know you're lying about your so called degree. No one can be this foolish to not understand the concept of a hunting ranch. The idea that they would risk their investment for wolves when their is plenty of land for these wolves to go is grade A stupid. but coming from you .. .
What do your masturbation habits have to do with this thread? If you masturbate at the thought of shooting animals that's your deal-- not mine. I see now that not only are you ignorant, but you're also some type of sexual freak. You're disgusting and the fact that you even think that it is appropriate to talk about your masturbation habits on this thread is pathetic. The only reason you insist on telling me how often you masturbate is to cover the fact that you know **** about this topic.
Do yourself a favor and Stop Lying. You're embarrassing yourself
Like it or not, hunting is alive and well. You'll just have to get over it
Spoiler:Show
Right I'll get you some links on the genetic effects of harvest then. Maybe then you will believe me.
Here is a preliminary study about the effects. You will latch onto the fact they conclude they see no need for urgency, so I will then present you with further more recent studies where this paper was written before they came out that suggest it is a big issue.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...47698785479577
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/suppl.1/9987.short
http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/06-0898.1
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...800.x/abstract
I am not jumping to conclusions, I was lectured on this topic by the head of the mammal society who I think knows his stuff.
Also, answer me this, what is the point of conserving an animal when we are not conserving its natural habitat?
The longer the animal is out of its natural habitat the longer it will have to become adapted to the texan environment. We are removing natural selection, always dangerous. It will not be exposed to diseases or resource pressures that it would be in North Africa and will become vulnerable to such diseases and parasites. This is simple Biological knowledge.
Actually it is estimated the texans have around 2000 - there are estimated to be over 4500 outside of that.
http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/15568/0
The animals were there a long time before the people, you are again showing that you don't give a **** about conservation and just use it as a cover. Without land owners entering into conservation projects many more species would go extinct.
There is not plenty of land for these wolves to go to, they have been driven out of texas entirely. The Mexican grey wolf is the subspecies native to that area and it is critically endangered. It is big landowners such as these that destroyed their habitat, shot them and drove them out.
I think you will find you are the stupid one, you have obviously done very little research into the topic and don't understand many basic biological principles. You don't need to have done research to understand if you kill of the males with the biggest horns the small ones will survive to breed, so their offspring will have smaller horns, and so selection occurs towards smaller horns.
You have absolutely no sources backing up your claims except a ****ty youtube video that is obviously full of bias. I will refer you to a commonly used phrase in my house - prgtfo - paper reference or get the **** out.
Oh how mature, twisting something I said and applying it to me, how old are you, 12? -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?(Original post by redferry)
monkey screeches .
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?He said the herd is never reduced by more than 10%. You can't compare it to animals being uncontrollably hunted for their tusks, that's different. Here we have a controlled environment.(Original post by redferry)
No, there are countless genetic effects of removing the largest males with the largest trophies from the population. Mouflon sheep are a good example of this, as are elephants (the number of tuskless elephants has more than tripled in the past 60 or so years).
All in all it will genetically weaken the species to the extent love nor money will save them.
A genetically weak species is one that has low effective population size. I don't know about you, but I can think of far better ways to reduce that than what these guys are doing. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?The issue you, Redferry, raised about genetics, I would say is a little nitpicky. Assuming what they say about herd size is true, genetic effects have to be small and slow. That's all rather theoretical compared to short term extinction.
A more pertinent point seems to be about local species in Texas. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Really? I can't let that one go, I'm sorry.(Original post by redferry)
Most of the time I feel the majority of food animals would be better off extinct the way they are treated.
I personally don't subscribe to any sort of "better off extinct" theory.
From my point of view it's more "anything but extinct".
Better off dead is one thing, but better off extinct?
I always think, what would I rather happen to humans? I would rather humans were tortured for 1000 years than extinct. I would be happy to make the same call for any other species, were it my decision.
I just can't abide this view that suffering in and of itself is the worst thing in existence. I would happily choose torture over losing my balls. Personally I think (given the choice) neutering animals is worse than torturing them. I mean, that's the choice I would make for me, so why make a different one for animals?
Maybe people will say "My God you piece of ****, you don't care about that dog at all, you wanna torture them!" No, I do care, that's why I don't want to chop his ****ing balls off!Last edited by Raiden10; 22-03-2012 at 21:26. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?In a small population such as these it is very easy to drive genetic change as the species is entering a genetic bottleneck though.(Original post by Raiden10)
The issue you, Redferry, raised about genetics, I would say is a little nitpicky. Assuming what they say about herd size is true, genetic effects have to be small and slow. That's all rather theoretical compared to short term extinction.
A more pertinent point seems to be about local species in Texas. -
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Re: Is hunting endangered animals a good way to save the species?Your comment makes no sense.(Original post by TCD23)
Hey, You know what, how about hunting fair? Standing on a thirty foot platform and shooting a bear fifty yards away doesn't really seem to very sporting like does it?
