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Israel or Palestine- who's the 'bad' guy?

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    Hi, i'm doing an assignment on Contemporary Business Issues called 'Imperatives of the State'
    I am writing about how the oil prices and wars have increased thanks to the conflicts in the Middle East- just need a bit of clarification on the History (go down to red text for actual question):

    Arab-Israeli-Western relations

    *1800s-The number of Jews living in Palestine gradually increases thanks to a combination of the modern World Map being established by (British?) Empire and easier methods of transport- Jews go there as Israel is Holy to them and because there has been an increasing number of attacks on them.

    *1916-Ottoman Empire's Control of Palestine now becomes British

    *1933 ARAMCO founded between Saudi Arabia and the USA


    *1947- Jews are told by the British to live in/around Palestine as they want to keep away from Germans and Soviets. They legally purchase land from the Arabs. Until this point all Arabs in Palestine are either Jordanians or Syrians-not Palestinians

    *1948- Arabs expel Jews living in neighbouring countries as more and more live with Muslims and the latter can't share Jerusalem. War between them (Egypt,Syria,Transjordan,Iraq and volunteers from other Muslim states) and the Jews (backed by the USA financially) erupts. The latter win and Palestine becomes Israel. This was caused by the Arabs' expulsion of Jews

    *Retribution of Operations (1951-1955) and Suez War (1956)

    *1967- Six Day War- same armies again (minus Iraq) and Israel wins this too. This time the Israelis were to blame to retaliate against sabre-rattling by Egyptians. This is when Muslims call the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosqye Holy (before its Holyness was up for debate). 9 wars follow and oil prices increase

    *1979-Israel and Egypt (former enemy) makes peace
    *1994-Israel and Jordan make peace

    Attacks on the West

    *1988-Al Qaeda established with Bin Laden being the figurehead
    *1990-Gulf War after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (2 year war)
    *1990-Bin Laden and Saudi Royal Family break relations
    *1993- WTC bombing in 1993 with Ramzi Yousef-not Al Qaeda at the time but still attacked USA for support of Israel
    *1996- Osama bin Laden issues fatwa against USA for supporting Israel and still being in Saudi Arabia even after Iraq war was finished (as a Muslim he found it insulting)
    *1998- Bomb Blasts on US Embassies by Al Qaeda members-Al Qaeda comes into spotlight
    *2001- 9/11 organised by Khalid Shiekh Mohammed- Uncle and financier to Ramzi Yousef and part of Al Qaeda
    *2001-present: War in Afghanistan to find Osama bin Laden (in cohorts with Taliban)-bin Laden escapes but Taliban openly assisted Al Qaeda
    *2003-present: Second War in Iraq-many Al Qaeda members in Iraq but no link to any attacks from Al Qaeda

    Who is to Blame?

    If Jews legally bought the land and did not destroy or rebuild on the existing Muslim sights, why were there continuing wars against Israel? Who started them and (if both did), why do both sides continue to act like this?

    I have also read that both Arabs from other countries AND Al Qaeda have no care for the Palestinian people: in 1970 Jordan massacred many Palestinian Muslims and other countries have kicked them out. Yet there is still a threat of war if the Temple is rebuilt?

    I also hear Al Qaeda and most terrorists do not care about them-is there proof in this bit? If this is true, then it must mean they are truly evil people. I assume they use this to rally people to their 'jihad' and why it has happened in non-Arabic Muslim countries like Pakistan,Nigeria,Somalia,Sudan,e tc. since they have border disputes with their non-Muslim neighbours.

    I want to compare Chevron (a US oil company) to Israel's Modiin and how wars have affected them so:

    -Who do you think is the 'bad' guy in the Arab-Israeli wars
    -Why do Arabs say they care about Palestinians and complain about Jews yet they themselves kicked them out
    -True intentions of the extremists?
    -How do you think oil prices have been affected
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    ill just like to give a quick insight for the continuing wars. The day after the State Of Israel was declared it was attacked by many surrounding countries even though it begged for peace with its Palestinian neighbours and Arab brothers, to me this just shows blind intolerance and hatred. Since then it has continued threats on its existence if after many peace attempts, a recent example is hamas desire to destroy and terrorise the country (in its charter it calls for the Destruction of every Single Jew and the Jewish State) by firing nearly 300 rockets AT civilians.So Israel is 100% the good guy, im not saying it is perfect as no country is but every country has the right to defend itself and protect its citizens. To me the palestinian issue is just a propaganda tool to get back what they see as there land (the palestinian mufti met with Hitler) ill happy discuss this with you if you want to send me an IM
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    (Original post by LondonBoy16)
    ill just like to give a quick insight for the continuing wars. The day after the State Of Israel was declared it was attacked by many surrounding countries even though it begged for peace with its Palestinian neighbours and Arab brothers, to me this just shows blind intolerance and hatred. Since then it has continued threats on its existence if after many peace attempts, a recent example is hamas desire to destroy and terrorise the country (in its charter it calls for the Destruction of every Single Jew and the Jewish State) by firing nearly 300 rockets AT civilians.So Israel is 100% the good guy, im not saying it is perfect as no country is but every country has the right to defend itself and protect its citizens. To me the palestinian issue is just a propaganda tool to get back what they see as there land (the palestinian mufti met with Hitler) ill happy discuss this with you if you want to send me an IM
    But didn't Israel initiate the 6 day war?
    I didn't read of the wars between the 1948 and 1967 wars but the 6 day war sounds like it was Israel's fault.

    It doesn't sound too good when Israel sounds like the aggressor even in Western News.

    Is there proof the likes of Osama bin Laden care not of Palestine? What about the other Arab countries-do they actually care (Jordan's massacre of the Palestinian Muslims comes to mind).

    I'm trying to do a certain degree of History but this is more a Business and Politics question. How it has affected USA and Israel e.g. economies,oil,etc.
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    TOO DIFFICULT TO CALL. Personally I think Israel was the evil one at the beginning because of the mass immigration into the area and then the 1948 war etc. But now I think the Palestinians at the bad people because they are determined to destroy Israel and are completely anti-sematic. anyway, maybe my insignificant and ignorant views are not worthy:confused:
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    Israel.
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    depends on what way you look at it . Arab forces were preparing and moving to there fronts for an all out offensive, so Israel seized the opportunity and bombed them if not it would of been a catastrophe. For all the wars you have to look at the root reason which is that many Arab counties do not want a Jewish country as they strongly believe its 'Arab Land' and that we have no place there which is entirely false.
    Yes i also see that which upsets me as they are definitely not as at the end of the day its a struggle for survival, how any one can see Israel as the aggressor while its civilians are being undiscriminatley bombed is beyond me. Israel used to be seen as the under dog and used to get more sympathy now it is been seen as the over dog because of its high tech military so know people are turning against it. Youtube 'Underdogma' for more detail if you want
    Well there is proof that they are being used a pawn as in Arab countries palestinians still live in refugee camps and have less if not hardly any rights as any other people, they are not granted citizenship and can not practice certain trades. They has also been massacres of palestinians in Jordan look up ' black september' 9just realised you mentioned it)

    Well its affected America and Israel alot. As you may read in the news that america aids Israel, America actually get ALOT back. They get the latest weapons with all the research and development done for them (iron dome missile defence and the Tavor) they all so get security in the middle east finally Israel i believe is also know as the second silicone valley because of its constant high tech innovations (e.g. work with intel and eradicating cancer) . But as america depends on oil it has to please the Arab countries thats why it all ways strives for peace and fund the PA
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    Palestine hands down.
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    (Original post by LondonBoy16)
    depends on what way you look at it . Arab forces were preparing and moving to there fronts for an all out offensive, so Israel seized the opportunity and bombed them if not it would of been a catastrophe. For all the wars you have to look at the root reason which is that many Arab counties do not want a Jewish country as they strongly believe its 'Arab Land' and that we have no place there which is entirely false.
    Yes i also see that which upsets me as they are definitely not as at the end of the day its a struggle for survival, how any one can see Israel as the aggressor while its civilians are being undiscriminatley bombed is beyond me. Israel used to be seen as the under dog and used to get more sympathy now it is been seen as the over dog because of its high tech military so know people are turning against it. Youtube 'Underdogma' for more detail if you want
    Well there is proof that they are being used a pawn as in Arab countries palestinians still live in refugee camps and have less if not hardly any rights as any other people, they are not granted citizenship and can not practice certain trades. They has also been massacres of palestinians in Jordan look up ' black september' 9just realised you mentioned it)

    Well its affected America and Israel alot. As you may read in the news that america aids Israel, America actually get ALOT back. They get the latest weapons with all the research and development done for them (iron dome missile defence and the Tavor) they all so get security in the middle east finally Israel i believe is also know as the second silicone valley because of its constant high tech innovations (e.g. work with intel and eradicating cancer) . But as america depends on oil it has to please the Arab countries thats why it all ways strives for peace and fund the PA
    But that's one of the questions that has made it all the more confusing,

    If the Arabs don't care, why don't the Jews rebuild the Temple-unless it's the land Arabs care of (but really-it wasn't even considered Holy until 1967 as many debated that Muhammed Spiritually went there).

    I'm still confused about it as many of my non-Palestinian Muslim friends (Saudi Arabia, Oman, Lebanon, Guinea,etc.) go around posting articles/videos on facebook of how the Jews are wrong and how they are outraged by Israel.
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    Well, you have maybe asked the question which is, more than any other, guaranteed to provoke endless acrimonious debate. To be completly honest, from your initial post it appears that you are already far more informed than the vast majority of people because you grasp that neither the Arabs nor the Muslims are a monolithic group and are aware of the internal conflicts that are endemic among them, as well as numerous other subtle points concerning the history of Israel.

    I believe that an analysis of the incredibly complex history of the region reveals that Israel is far from perfect, but is still, quite overwhelmingly, the Good Guys, both in terms of their conduct and the overall justice of their cause.

    I believe you are broadly correct that the Arab governments do not care about the people who have come to be called the Palestinians per se, but rather view them as useful weapons to point at Israel, which are only useful as long as they are kept in their desperate state. The whole Israel issue is useful for distracting the Arabs from the fact that they live under varying combinations of incompetence, corruption, and totalitarianism. That is not to say that the views of individual Arabs and Muslims who have sympathy with the Palestinian Arabs are cynical, just that they are misguided and often informed by a mistaken view of history and current events.

    If you need a good quick overview of the history of the conflict, and don't want to dip into academic texts, I would in all seriousness reccomend wikipedia, rather than anything that is likely to be quickly typed up on a forum such as this. Its coverage of the basics of the history and politics of the conflict is extremely good. If you do want the academic texts, my first port of call would be Efraim Karsh.

    I did notice one thing in your post that was slightly curious, and that was the observation that: "Yet there is still a threat of war if the Temple is rebuilt?" This is nothing to do with the Palestinian Arabs per se, and everything to do with the fact that there are two bloody great Mosques, the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque, that were built on the ruins of the Temple and would need to be demolished, which Muslims in general would not be too happy about.
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    they pretend they care to go against the Jewish State as a single bit of land in the middle east taken by Jews is wrong for them( im talking about extremists not genuine peace wanting muslims, but arab countries are run by extremists) . We cant rebuild a temple because it is forbidden untill the messiah comes and because it would cause outrage for some reason and would desecrate gods name.
    Yes that is one of the Arab propaganda tools, those jews are a small sect of extremist nut cases called 'Neutari Karta' they are loathed by everyone for turning against there brothers and for meeting achmedinajad who denies the holocaust
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    (Original post by LondonBoy16)
    ill just like to give a quick insight for the continuing wars. The day after the State Of Israel was declared it was attacked by many surrounding countries even though it begged for peace with its Palestinian neighbours and Arab brothers, to me this just shows blind intolerance and hatred. Since then it has continued threats on its existence if after many peace attempts, a recent example is hamas desire to destroy and terrorise the country (in its charter it calls for the Destruction of every Single Jew and the Jewish State) by firing nearly 300 rockets AT civilians.So Israel is 100% the good guy, im not saying it is perfect as no country is but every country has the right to defend itself and protect its citizens. To me the palestinian issue is just a propaganda tool to get back what they see as there land (the palestinian mufti met with Hitler) ill happy discuss this with you if you want to send me an IM
    Israel is the aggressor. Why? Did you know that Israel's very existence was based on terrorism? Before the state of Israel was created there were a number of insurgencies (cant remember their names, i think one of the main was called Hananaga or something like that. It meant "the Defence" in hebrew). They conducted the first ever civilian terrorist bombing in history at the King Solomon Hotel in Jerusalem against Britain. It was part of a movement that wanted to force the British to hand over a sector of the Levant region to the Jews. Britain having come fresh out of WW2 just couldnt engage in another war, so they just handed over independency. The Mandate was split between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews were given not only more land than the Arabs, despite being a minority and owning less than 10% of the land before hand, they were given the most fertile land. On top of all that, the israelis started occupying palestinian land. Ofc the palestinians and other Arab countries werent gonna have any of that, are they?

    This conflict would be resolved so much more easily if everyone just knew the history of the region, but they dont. Here's just the first videos i saw when i typed "creation of isreal" in youtube and you can see how much of it fits into my description.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfV8wCLjlE
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    Currently, Israel. Why? Because they are in a far stronger position at the moment and they are totally abusing their power. It might be somewhat possible for some semblance of peace to occur there, but the aggressive Zionist movement now wants pretty much every piece of Palestine for themselves, they are demolishing Palestinian neighbourhoods and building Israeli ones like crazy.

    In the past, the good and bad guy switched roles a number of times. Unfortunately, it seems as though we will never escape this problem either (the existence of the oppressor and of the oppressed) because of religious reasons. The Muslims will only be happy if they are in total control of Palestine and the Jews will only be happy if they are in total control of Palestine. They both believe the land to be inherently theirs and have numerous historical and religious reasons to dislike each other. They will never be able to have an equal, integrated state so it seems as though these problems will go on...
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    I know this is a controversial issue but I have to say Israel from all of the information I've heard. Yes the Israelis settled after being 'given' the land, but they were given the land as a peace agreement, the Palestinians who lived on that land NEVER agreed to allow them in, or to give them any land. Now people say that they refused the agreement when they were offered half of the land, and say they were ungrateful. BUT how can they say that when it was THEIR land which they had made their territory for thousands of years, so they shouldn't have had to give half of it away anyway.

    So the situation now is that the Israelis are continually expanding their land area. The Gaza Strip and West Bank are tiny in comparison to the extend of Israeli land. AND to add to this the Israelis are now making settlements within the West Bank, ie behind the boundary. Much of this is on high land where they can check up on the Palestinians and in effect control them. Also there is the issue of water supply. The Palestinians cannot afford their own services, mainly because of their lack of ability to be able to trade (due to the Israelis blockading ports). So most of the water supply comes from within the West Bank as it has the river Jordan, but the Israeli settlements and Israel ALWAYS gets priority over this water, which leaves many Palestinians having access to water for only 1 hour a day and are then cut off, whereas Israelis have unlimited supply. Ok now onto the border controls, so a wall is currently being built between the two nations cutting Palestinians off from their land, homes and important services not available on Palestinian land, just because small proportions of the population are suicide bombers. The real reason the wall is being built is to expand Israeli land, as it is moving further into Palestinian territory and reducing their already meagre area to live in.

    As somebody has previously pointed out there was bombing recently, and it is unclear who actually started it. But the fact is that the Palestinian bomb either killed very few or caused small amounts of injury. I listened to a talk show about it, an Israeli woman was talking about the injured and the worst injuries she could come up with were than Israeli civilians were 'now had mental disturbances because they were traumatised by the sound of sirens'!!!!

    Ok so I know this is very one sided. But I honestly can't see how anyone can be pro-Israeli. I know there are many arguments against the Palestinians - and I can't argue against many of these, however I think that the Israelis do not need to treat the Palestinians as they do and the problem is now spiralling out of control.
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    from the present perspective palestine cant really be the bad guy as it doesnt technically exist :rolleyes:

    why is this getting negged ... is there a state is palestine? no.
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    @4realblud
    you have quite clearly got no idea of the current conflict and are completely misinformed and are deciding to give out half truths and selective information. i just want to tell you that i stand with :israel: and with GENUINE PEACE which you obviously dont. You probably haven't even step foot in the region .There for you do not know the correct history and local mentally of both Jews and Arabs
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    Well, you have maybe asked the question which is, more than any other, guaranteed to provoke endless acrimonious debate. To be completly honest, from your initial post it appears that you are already far more informed than the vast majority of people because you grasp that neither the Arabs nor the Muslims are a monolithic group and are aware of the internal conflicts that are endemic among them, as well as numerous other subtle points concerning the history of Israel.

    I believe that an analysis of the incredibly complex history of the region reveals that Israel is far from perfect, but is still, quite overwhelmingly, the Good Guys, both in terms of their conduct and the overall justice of their cause.

    I believe you are broadly correct that the Arab governments do not care about the people who have come to be called the Palestinians per se, but rather view them as useful weapons to point at Israel, which are only useful as long as they are kept in their desperate state. The whole Israel issue is useful for distracting the Arabs from the fact that they live under varying combinations of incompetence, corruption, and totalitarianism. That is not to say that the views of individual Arabs and Muslims who have sympathy with the Palestinian Arabs are cynical, just that they are misguided and often informed by a mistaken view of history and current events.

    If you need a good quick overview of the history of the conflict, and don't want to dip into academic texts, I would in all seriousness reccomend wikipedia, rather than anything that is likely to be quickly typed up on a forum such as this. Its coverage of the basics of the history and politics of the conflict is extremely good. If you do want the academic texts, my first port of call would be Efraim Karsh.

    I did notice one thing in your post that was slightly curious, and that was the observation that: "Yet there is still a threat of war if the Temple is rebuilt?" This is nothing to do with the Palestinian Arabs per se, and everything to do with the fact that there are two bloody great Mosques, the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque, that were built on the ruins of the Temple and would need to be demolished, which Muslims in general would not be too happy about.
    By 'not be too happy about' you mean they'd start a war-so they still care about the land. I assume a lot of them found the Mount Holy-even when it was debated??

    What is the actual aim of people like bin Laden-I hear he didn't actually care of Palestinian Muslims either
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    (Original post by ronki23)
    But didn't Israel initiate the 6 day war?
    No.
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    What about the 996 British soldiers that were killed by zionist paramilitary organisations during the British- Zionist conflict from 1939-1948 (not part of WW2)
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    (Original post by Claire888)
    I know this is a controversial issue but I have to say Israel from all of the information I've heard. Yes the Israelis settled after being 'given' the land, but they were given the land as a peace agreement, the Palestinians who lived on that land NEVER agreed to allow them in, or to give them any land. Now people say that they refused the agreement when they were offered half of the land, and say they were ungrateful. BUT how can they say that when it was THEIR land which they had made their territory for thousands of years, so they shouldn't have had to give half of it away anyway.

    So the situation now is that the Israelis are continually expanding their land area. The Gaza Strip and West Bank are tiny in comparison to the extend of Israeli land. AND to add to this the Israelis are now making settlements within the West Bank, ie behind the boundary. Much of this is on high land where they can check up on the Palestinians and in effect control them. Also there is the issue of water supply. The Palestinians cannot afford their own services, mainly because of their lack of ability to be able to trade (due to the Israelis blockading ports). So most of the water supply comes from within the West Bank as it has the river Jordan, but the Israeli settlements and Israel ALWAYS gets priority over this water, which leaves many Palestinians having access to water for only 1 hour a day and are then cut off, whereas Israelis have unlimited supply. Ok now onto the border controls, so a wall is currently being built between the two nations cutting Palestinians off from their land, homes and important services not available on Palestinian land, just because small proportions of the population are suicide bombers. The real reason the wall is being built is to expand Israeli land, as it is moving further into Palestinian territory and reducing their already meagre area to live in.

    As somebody has previously pointed out there was bombing recently, and it is unclear who actually started it. But the fact is that the Palestinian bomb either killed very few or caused small amounts of injury. I listened to a talk show about it, an Israeli woman was talking about the injured and the worst injuries she could come up with were than Israeli civilians were 'now had mental disturbances because they were traumatised by the sound of sirens'!!!!

    Ok so I know this is very one sided. But I honestly can't see how anyone can be pro-Israeli. I know there are many arguments against the Palestinians - and I can't argue against many of these, however I think that the Israelis do not need to treat the Palestinians as they do and the problem is now spiralling out of control.
    They paid money for that land to the Arabs and were kicked out when the Arabs thought too many Jews were in Palestine
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    (Original post by Anna_Karenina)
    Palestine hands down.
    No. Israel.

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