The Student Room Group

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Reply 60
Original post by Dirac Delta Function
That's only part of their ugliness.

We've caught lots of them trying to blow up crowds and mosques in Iraq. They are a horrid bunch of people who have exploited the good will of European lefties in the propaganda war with Israel.

I'm not saying Israel is innocent, but the Palestinians are not deserving of much sympathy. They are hypocrites to the extreme, berating Israel for terrorism whilst encouraging and lauding it themselves.


Are Palestinians particularly over represented in the attacks on Shia in Iraq or something and are any exclusively Palestinian groups involved, as opposed to Palestinians working within organisations like Ansar al-Islam and Al-Qaida? As far as I am aware fanatics from all over descended into Iraq after 2003. Is it fair to extend the actions of these Palestinians onto the entire Palestinian population?
Original post by Numan786
what temple are we talking about here???


The Jewish Temple, which was located on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem which now houses the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply 62
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
What do you actually mean by this? What is your definition of Palestine, and under what conditions would you consider it free?


free it from the oppression of zionists.
Original post by Organ
This is the problem. You have to detach emotion from it and look at what has happened rationally.

You seem to be unaware of the 1937 Peel Report or the 1939 British White Paper, both imposed by the colonial power on Palestine, both highly favourable (particularly the 1939 White Paper) to the Palestinians, and yet rejected by the Palestinians. In 1939 it stated that Jewish immigration would be severely limited for 5 years then ended altogether, giving the Palestinians a 3:1 majority in population. This would then be followed by the creation of a single independent state in which the Palestinians would have a huge majority. The Palestinians rejected this- a one-state solution which they would have ruled. And do you want to know why they rejected such a favourable deal? Or perhaps you would rather not know because it reflects rather badly on the then Palestinian leader, Haj Amin. Let me give you a clude: It wasn't good enough for him because the Jewish minority would be given full citizenship of the new state.

Yes, the Zionists were greedy and ambitious and had their own agenda- but the Palestinians bear as much responsibility for the tragedy of 1948. It never ceases to surprise me how little some posters know about the History of the Palestinian people who they support. It's not angels v devils, good v evil, colonialists v natives- both sides have at times been as bad as each other.

Some left because they were ordered to and were deliberately incited into panic by their own leaders who wanted the field cleared for the 1948 war. Some, indeed, were forced out by the Israeli troops. The picture is much more complicated than your simplistic view. And, it is important to remember there was a war on, which started when multiple Arab armies attacked newly born Israel. By the way, there were also thousands of Jews murdered or forced out of their homes by the Arab armies. Somehow you ignore them. I wonder why.

In the present day Israel enjoys the position of being the dominant force, and has behaved appallingly in a large number of areas.


But yes that's very easy for YOU to say, all this hasn't happened to you. If i'm being honest, i would feel pretty anti-jewish if i have had all this done to me. It's very emotional. You cannot ask them to just ignore or forget such a tragic thing

How come you keep hearing anti-zionist jews telling everyone that racism against jews only occured after the creation of israel? "we babysat oeach other's children" they kept saying. Between the two world wars, it was the arabs who the jews flourished under, whilst europe was discriminating them. The arabs' ill-treatment of the jews was due to retalliation. An eye for an eye.
Reply 64
Original post by shush
free it from the oppression of zionists.


Yes but what specifically? All you have done is spam rap videos and flags?

What is your actual proposal?
Original post by shush
free it from the oppression of zionists.


That's not a response to the question. Why won't you help me gain a greater understanding of your position?
Reply 66
Original post by Organ
It's interesting you mention that. The western left is basically racist about the Middle East. If Israelis do something bad, they're attacked because there's an assumption they should know better. But when people in Arab countries behave in worse ways they're left in relative peace because there's a racist assumption that primitive little people who tend to have darker skins couldn't possibly know better. It's called the racism of low expectations.

Very true. The western left is a joke and ive noticed this racist/double standards by them too.

We are where we are. Some sort of two-state solution is the only one that could concievably work. But so long as Netanyahu is in power, absolutely zero chance of any progress on that road.

If im honest, a two state solution isnt going to work. There's an issue with Jerusalem, neither side wants to give it up. Splitting Jerusalem isnt going to work either, when there are US presidents who are saying "Jerusalem shall remain the capital of Israel and undivided" (Obama said that one). Also, (IMO) the two state "solution" is just an American/Israeli narrative for the continuation of expansion by Israel, like a carrot dangling in front of a donkey, yet the donkey never gets to eat the carrot.

The only solution left is a one state. IMO, it has to be secular, none of this Jewish, Islamic state Bull****. Tbh, Netanyahu isnt really an issue. The issue is outside support for both sides. The West, Arab World and others need to force both sides to negotiate, not just the Palestinians and not just Israelis - try and get Hamas to stop rockets and try and get Israel to [insert issue with Israel here, too many to name]. Heck, I dont think the Palestinians would care living in a secular non-apatheid Israel as long as they are treated the same as an Israeli.

None of this would happen though.


I'm not an expert on this conflict because I actually find it boring and frustrating, but why did Abbas turn down this plan in 2008?

Spoiler


Abbas is an idiot, to put it nicely. Im guessing he did not accept that deal because he wants all of Israel, not just the '67 border Palestine or any other.
Reply 67
Original post by Organ
Yes but what specifically? All you have done is spam rap videos and flags?

What is your actual proposal?


well first thing, the land they have which was taken by force should be returned
the people should be able to live in peace
kids should not be harmed to throwing a rock
people should be able to go out without facing the danger of being shot or harmed by israelis
and what video did i post i think your lost mate
Reply 68
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
That's not a response to the question. Why won't you help me gain a greater understanding of your position?

well my definition of palestion varies
if i was alive at 1930- a nice country in the middle east where people are living in complete harmony
2012- a country which has been more than halved, where people are being oppressed by people who have taken over their homes
i hope this answers your question
Reply 69
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
What do you actually mean by this? What is your definition of Palestine, and under what conditions would you consider it free?


If you ask me, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River.
Reply 70
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
The Jewish Temple, which was located on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem which now houses the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque


apparently that is where the prophet and king solomon had his throne and mosque if im thinking of the right place and its said they are building over it because their messiah the anti christ cannot claim his unrightful throne over a mosque this is only for unreal jews not the real jews who love god and are not awaiting the return of this false messiah or are members of israel.
Original post by Organ
Are Palestinians particularly over represented in the attacks on Shia in Iraq or something and are any exclusively Palestinian groups involved, as opposed to Palestinians working within organisations like Ansar al-Islam and Al-Qaida? As far as I am aware fanatics from all over descended into Iraq after 2003. Is it fair to extend the actions of these Palestinians onto the entire Palestinian population?


There aren't exclusively palestinian groups to my knowledge, they are part of the al Qaeda network. and yes, given their numbers, they are over represented.

There's a stream of Salafi effluence that flows from North Africa through Palestine and Syria and ends up in Iraq. They're all ass holes to more or less the same extent but we are discussing Palestinians in this thread.

Yes, it's fair, because the jihadists have a lot of support from their homes towns. People don't travel hundreds of miles to blow themselves up in a mosque or a crowd of shoppers unless there is something pretty ****ed about their culture and upbringing. These people are hailed as martyrs and heroes. Their funerals are celebratory events, not sombre ones. They place no value on human life, it's their religion and culture. Jews always mourn their dead.

Palestinians have propagated this image of them being some poor oppressed people. They're not, they are trash who happened to **** with the wrong people (Jews) and got their testicles handed to them. They can't beat the Jews, so they want to make them look like the bad guys.
Original post by shush
well my definition of palestion varies
if i was alive at 1930- a nice country in the middle east where people are living in complete harmony
2012- a country which has been more than halved, where people are being oppressed by people who have taken over their homes
i hope this answers your question


It is an answer which is vague enough that I don't know exactly what you mean, but specific enough that I can tell that you have based your view on the time-tested, dependable foundation of serious historical illiteracy.
Original post by Numan786
apparently that is where the prophet and king solomon had his throne and mosque if im thinking of the right place and its said they are building over it because their messiah the anti christ cannot claim his unrightful throne over a mosque this is only for unreal jews not the real jews who love god and are not awaiting the return of this false messiah or are members of israel.


????
I can't make heads or tails of this I'm afraid. "Solomon mosque antichrist" what? Try again with punctuation?
Reply 74
Every time some sort of peace is established Israel proceeds to bomb some Hamas associate for some sort of terrorist plot. Then Hamas fires 100s of rockets into Israel all of which do a pitiful amount of damage. Israel responds to this with a series of bombings which kill scores of people. Then peace is negotiated once again. Then the cycle starts all over again.
Original post by ak137
If you ask me, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River.


Do you also claim that it should be 'free'? If so, what do you mean by that?

Personally, I believe that most of what you define as Palestine is currently free, in that it is part of a free, secular, liberal democratic state. Obviously Gaza is not, as it is under a totalitarian theocracy, and Judea and Samaria are a bit of a mixed bag, depending on the specific area within them.
Reply 76
Original post by ak137
If im honest, a two state solution isnt going to work. There's an issue with Jerusalem, neither side wants to give it up. Splitting Jerusalem isnt going to work either, when there are US presidents who are saying "Jerusalem shall remain the capital of Israel and undivided" (Obama said that one). Also, (IMO) the two state "solution" is just an American/Israeli narrative for the continuation of expansion by Israel, like a carrot dangling in front of a donkey, yet the donkey never gets to eat the carrot.

The only solution left is a one state. IMO, it has to be secular, none of this Jewish, Islamic state Bull****. Tbh, Netanyahu isnt really an issue. The issue is outside support for both sides. The West, Arab World and others need to force both sides to negotiate, not just the Palestinians and not just Israelis - try and get Hamas to stop rockets and try and get Israel to [insert issue with Israel here, too many to name]. Heck, I dont think the Palestinians would care living in a secular non-apatheid Israel


Yes I agree with much of this. Obviously the ideal situation would be a single national state, but obviously this would result in carnage if adopted immediately (ideally I think a single state would be a good ambition to hold, but it would require decades of continued existence of an Israeli and Palestinian state to make it remotely workable). Some in Hamas (if their Charter is to be believed) support the idea of a one-state solution where the Jews if they are lucky would be second class citizens. Which is of course a mirror image of how Israel currently treats its Arab citizens. The immediate creation of a single secular state would simply not work.

Regards Jerusalem, I don't see that as a huge issue within a two state solution. There are two ways of dealing with that issue, because, like you, I agree that it is wrong for one side to have the monopoly over control of the city. In the original United Nations Partition Plan that was unfortunately (with hindsight rejected by the Arabs) - the city of Jerusalem was way inside the Arab state, but controlled by the United Nations. I think this is a better means to resolve the Jerusalem question than the alternative which is splitting the city in half with the Palestinian state controlling East Jerusalem.

One option is for two entirely separate administrations to operate in one territory. This seems like a recipe for disaster. An interesting proposal is a federated solution, where Palestinian-majority areas (notably northern Israel and the occupied territories) are under the control of regional powers with a built-in Palestinian majority representation, and the other areas have majority-Jewish representation. The city of Jerusalem will have to be placed under some kind of international mandate. There will have to be some limited provision for the return of Palestinian refugees, and for restitution to be made to those who are unable to return.

as long as they are treated the same as an Israeli.


An Israeli doesn't mean a Jew, over 20% of the population in Israel is Arab and something like 76% being Jewish.

Original post by shush
well first thing, the land they have which was taken by force should be returned
the people should be able to live in peace
kids should not be harmed to throwing a rock
people should be able to go out without facing the danger of being shot or harmed by israelis
and what video did i post i think your lost mate


This isn't a proposal "mate". What is your actual concrete proposal?
Original post by LondonBoy16
what about the extreme hatred form some palestinians and intolerance preached on tv shows, naming terrorists heros surely that is the cause of the problem

:israel: :israel:


TV shows that are state owned. The person you quoted made this point!
Reply 78
Original post by Dirac Delta Function
There aren't exclusively palestinian groups to my knowledge, they are part of the al Qaeda network. and yes, given their numbers, they are over represented.

There's a stream of Salafi effluence that flows from North Africa through Palestine and Syria and ends up in Iraq. They're all ass holes to more or less the same extent but we are discussing Palestinians in this thread.

Yes, it's fair, because the jihadists have a lot of support from their homes towns. People don't travel hundreds of miles to blow themselves up in a mosque or a crowd of shoppers unless there is something pretty ****ed about their culture and upbringing. These people are hailed as martyrs and heroes. Their funerals are celebratory events, not sombre ones. They place no value on human life, it's their religion and culture. Jews always mourn their dead.

Palestinians have propagated this image of them being some poor oppressed people. They're not, they are trash who happened to **** with the wrong people (Jews) and got their testicles handed to them. They can't beat the Jews, so they want to make them look like the bad guys.


What sorts of numbers are you talking about? And you really reckon that people blowing themselves up in Iraq are hailed as heroes back in the refugee camps, Gaza and the West Bank?
Original post by ALII
Haha can't take you seriously when you have picture of a racist and an Islamophobe :pal:


No one takes him seriously

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