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Israel or Palestine- who's the 'bad' guy?

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    Please remember that this thread is not in Debate and Current Affairs. The thread starter is looking for replies to specific questions, primarily from an academic perspective, not an extended argument between members here.

    Please read the questions in ronki23's posts BEFORE posting here.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    ????
    I can't make heads or tails of this I'm afraid. "Solomon mosque antichrist" what? Try again with punctuation?
    basically there was a prohpet also a king called solomon, the temple (if I am thinking of the right place) is where his throne also a mosque (place of worship) was. their are two kind of jews. real and fake/unloyal to god and his teachings, the fake jews are the jews currently in israel trying to build over the mosque so their "messiah" who is the "antichrist" can rule the earth and seperate the true believers from the untrue believers and disbelievers. the actual jews are the ones who were massacared by the nazis, condemn israel and worship god and follow the teachings of the prophet moses. now the fake jews need to build over the mosque because the their messiah can't claim his throne over a holy place.

    you can tell the rightfull messiah apart from the false messiah (i.e. the one the fake jews are waiting for) because the fake one will perform miracles and claim to be the messiah and eventually god whereas the true messiah will never claim to be god or the messiah and will not perform miracles. their are more ways to distinguish the two and all 3 abrahamic religiona were told about the false messiah by their prophets ie jesus and moses etc.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    Do you also claim that it should be 'free'? If so, what do you mean by that?
    Well it depends what you mean by 'free'. If you look at the response I gave to Organ, some of the thing I said, are there.
    Personally, I believe that most of what you define as Palestine is currently free, in that it is part of a free, secular, liberal democratic state. Obviously Gaza is not, as it is under a totalitarian theocracy,
    Since when? Last time i checked, the Hamas government were democratically elected. They are Islamists, yes.
    and Judea and Samaria are a bit of a mixed bag, depending on the specific area within them.
    You mean the West Bank :holmes:

    The West Bank is under occupation by Israel, the only "democracy" in the middle east. The Palestinians live under Totalitarian control.
    (Original post by Organ)
    Spoiler:
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    Yes I agree with much of this. Obviously the ideal situation would be a single national state, but obviously this would result in carnage if adopted immediately (ideally I think a single state would be a good ambition to hold, but it would require decades of continued existence of an Israeli and Palestinian state to make it remotely workable).
    Yup, that isnt such a bad idea.
    Some in Hamas (if their Charter is to be believed) support the idea of a one-state solution where the Jews if they are lucky would be second class citizens. Which is of course a mirror image of how Israel currently treats its Arab citizens. The immediate creation of a single secular state would simply not work.
    Although I can understand Palestinian support for Hamas, the party is going about it the wrong way (ie: destroy all Jews).
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Regards Jerusalem, I don't see that as a huge issue within a two state solution. There are two ways of dealing with that issue, because, like you, I agree that it is wrong for one side to have the monopoly over control of the city. In the original United Nations Partition Plan that was unfortunately (with hindsight rejected by the Arabs) - the city of Jerusalem was way inside the Arab state, but controlled by the United Nations. I think this is a better means to resolve the Jerusalem question than the alternative which is splitting the city in half with the Palestinian state controlling East Jerusalem.
    Also agree here, even though I think the UN is a bit of a sham.
    One option is for two entirely separate administrations to operate in one territory. This seems like a recipe for disaster. An interesting proposal is a federated solution, where Palestinian-majority areas (notably northern Israel and the occupied territories) are under the control of regional powers with a built-in Palestinian majority representation, and the other areas have majority-Jewish representation. The city of Jerusalem will have to be placed under some kind of international mandate. There will have to be some limited provision for the return of Palestinian refugees, and for restitution to be made to those who are unable to return.
    Why limit? I dont understand. I can understand from Israel's prospective as right of return would mean Israel would become sort of an majority arab populated country.
    An Israeli doesn't mean a Jew, over 20% of the population in Israel is Arab and something like 76% being Jewish.
    Calling an Arab, Israeli, just doesnt feel right :laugh:
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    (Original post by Organ)
    What sorts of numbers are you talking about? And you really reckon that people blowing themselves up in Iraq are hailed as heroes back in the refugee camps, Gaza and the West Bank?
    Over the last 9 years, it goes into the hundreds quite easily.Proportionately, they should not even be 1% of the Arabs, but they are routinely found and arrested in intelligence lead raids and SOF operations.


    Yes, they are celebrated as heroes and their actions lauded.
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    (Original post by Numan786)
    basically there was a prohpet also a king called solomon, the temple (if I am thinking of the right place) is where his throne also a mosque (place of worship) was. their are two kind of jews. real and fake/unloyal to god and his teachings, the fake jews are the jews currently in israel trying to build over the mosque so their "messiah" who is the "antichrist" can rule the earth and seperate the true believers from the untrue believers and disbelievers. the actual jews are the ones who were massacared by the nazis, condemn israel and worship god and follow the teachings of the prophet moses. now the fake jews need to build over the mosque because the their messiah can't claim his throne over a holy place.

    you can tell the rightfull messiah apart from the false messiah (i.e. the one the fake jews are waiting for) because the fake one will perform miracles and claim to be the messiah and eventually god whereas the true messiah will never claim to be god or the messiah and will not perform miracles. their are more ways to distinguish the two and all 3 abrahamic religiona were told about the false messiah by their prophets ie jesus and moses etc.
    ohhh! i get it now! you're a lunatic
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    It seems to me that:

    The Jews of Israel legally got to Israel but only after paying for the land and fighting for their rights (against the people who pioneered for them-the British)

    Palestinians and other Arabs initiated the first War

    Israel has continued fighting and seizing territories

    Various Palestinians blowing themselves/their children up has caused peace processes to stutter

    Today in Syria and Yemen I hope that their governments get overthrown because for years their terrible human rights record AND the fact they were key aggressors in Arab-Israeli wars shows their ideology has a screw loose

    Al Qaeda has used the 'plight of Islam' as a way of rallying muhajideen:

    Palestinians, Pakistanis (dispute with the 'evil' Indians over Kashmir and land),Bangladeshis (same), Somalis,pro-Taliban Afghans,Syrians and Yemenis,etc.

    Osama bin Laden is the Revolver Ocelot of the story-using others' plight for his own needs

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    (Original post by ALII)
    Haha can't take you seriously when you have picture of a racist and an Islamophobe :pal:
    How is Pat Condell a racist? As for Islamophobe, I couldn't care less. Does being scared of wild bears make me a 'bearophobe'?
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    (Original post by ak137)
    Since when? Last time i checked, the Hamas government were democratically elected. They are Islamists, yes.
    One man, one vote, then kill all your opponents and institute an oppressive, death-worshipping theocracy does not a free society make.
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    (Original post by ronki23)
    It seems to me that:

    The Jews of Israel legally got to Israel but only after paying for the land and fighting for their rights (against the people who pioneered for them-the British)
    Balfour Declaration.
    Palestinians and other Arabs initiated the first War


    Israel has continued fighting and seizing territories

    Various Palestinians blowing themselves/their children up has caused peace processes to stutter
    Yep.

    Today in Syria and Yemen I hope that their governments get overthrown because for years their terrible human rights record AND the fact they were key aggressors in Arab-Israeli wars shows their ideology has a screw loose
    On the subject of Yemen & Syria, Yemeni government is an Israeli/ US puppet. Syria isnt.

    Al Qaeda has used the 'plight of Islam' as a way of rallying muhajideen:

    Palestinians, Pakistanis (dispute with the 'evil' Indians over Kashmir and land),Bangladeshis (same), Somalis,pro-Taliban Afghans,Syrians and Yemenis,etc.
    IMO, Kashmir should become independent. The British government is to blame for Indo-Pak/kashmir situation to an extent.

    Osama bin Laden is the Revolver Ocelot of the story-using others' plight for his own needs
    Ummm, not sure if this story has reached your cave yet, but OBL is dead.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    One man, one vote, then kill all your opponents and institute an oppressive, death-worshipping theocracy does not a free society make.
    Im afraid you dont know what you are talking about mate. Other political parties in the Gaza strip exist. Its just that Hamas is in government. Democracy and theocracy cannot co-exist.
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    (Original post by ak137)
    Balfour Declaration.

    Yep.


    On the subject of Yemen & Syria, Yemeni government is an Israeli/ US puppet. Syria isnt.


    IMO, Kashmir should become independent. The British government is to blame for Indo-Pak/kashmir situation to an extent.


    Ummm, not sure if this story has reached your cave yet, but OBL is dead.
    Maybe today but before that they've had masses of Al Qaeda followers and symphathisers.

    Israel-Yemen relations do not have diplomatic relations and relations between the two countries are very tense. People with an Israeli passport or any passport with Israeli stamp cannot enter into Yemen, and Yemen is defined as enemy state by the Israeli law.
    not to mention Osama was Yemeni born in Saudi Arabia (I guess you could call him Saudi Arabian since Arabs are Arabs) and Al Awlaki operated there

    As for India-Pakistan, the British government split it because there was already conflicts in India amongst Hindus and Muslims. Even after partition the Muslims wanted appeasement in India. Muslims can't live under non-Sharia law and there were/are more Hindus than Muslims in India so it was just a matter of time.
    Pakistan attacked Kashmir before it was decided who got it-the King was Hindu and the people Muslim. Pakistan were stupid and saw Kashmir go to India when they attacked
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    Neither.

    It just seems like an intractable problem. If you listen to the stories of the Palestinians, you can't do anything but agree with them. If you listen to the grievances of the Israelis, personally I end up thinking the Palestinians are in the wrong.

    The people who are really responsible are dead, and now both sides are being raised to hate the other, and both give the other perfectly good reasons to hate them.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    How is Pat Condell a racist? As for Islamophobe, I couldn't care less. Does being scared of wild bears make me a 'bearophobe'?
    hahaahaahaha how isn't Pat Condell racist lol and why are you scared of Muslims you idiot? Did a "Muslim" once steal your lunch money?

    Also people tend to be scared of things which they don't understand.
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    (Original post by ronki23)
    -Who do you think is the 'bad' guy in the Arab-Israeli wars
    This depends on who you ask but since I'm answering the question, it's undoubtedly the 'Arab side'. Since the establishment of biblical Israel, Jews have always maintained a presence in the Holy Land and Jews were worshiping in Jerusalem whilst Arabs were still worshiping idols in the desert only to arrive with the coming of Islam and eventually build an ugly dome over the holiest site in Judaism.

    In short, the Jews have unrivaled ties to the land and have always maintained a presence there to some degree. With the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise in antisemitism, the Jews needed a safe haven and given their spiritual, historical, cultural, ancestral and religious ties to the land, there was only ever one option. The push to create a Jewish homeland has its foundations both legally and morally.

    There were numerous attempts to divide the mandate, some favored the Jews, some favored the Arabs but the Arabs flat out rejected every proposal where as the Jews showed willingness. When Israel finally declared independence a day before the mandate expired, a coalition of Arab armies backed by Saudi Arabia invaded with hopes of destroying the nascent Jewish state - a goal which was only strengthened by the rise of Arab nationalism but thankfully there has never been a successful Arab attempt to destroy Israel.

    Look at it this way, if the Arabs would lay down their arms, their would be peace tomorrow, if Israel laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel. Even to this day, Palestinians cling to 'resistance' even though they know deep down it does nothing but harm their cause and their people, they could have their own viable state but they'd sooner spite themselves than be seen to make peace with da jooz.



    -Why do Arabs say they care about Palestinians and complain about Jews yet they themselves kicked them out
    Because the harsh reality is that the Palestinians are nothing more than a political tool in the wider Arab war against Israel [or Jews when considering the religious undertones of the conflict] - Arabs have killed more Palestinians than Israel, Arab countries have laws against Palestinians which closely resemble apartheid, Arab countries are inferior to the US of all places when it comes to international aid to Palestinians etc. It's sad that Palestinians living in Israel (their supposed mortal enemy) enjoy more civil and religious freedoms than they would anywhere else in the Arab world.

    -True intentions of the extremists?
    To liberate "Palestine" from "the river to the sea" or basically to cleanse the Jews from the Holy Land - they don't even pretend to hide this intention. Even the moderates hold this view, they're just less obvious about it.
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    (Original post by ALII)
    Also people tend to be scared of things which they don't understand.
    That is one of the most misused truisms ever. It is perfectly possible for someone to be scared of something, or indeed to hate it, precisely because they understand exactly what it is, while someone who does not really understand something might not know that it is something to be scared of.
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    (Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
    Over the last 9 years, it goes into the hundreds quite easily.Proportionately, they should not even be 1% of the Arabs, but they are routinely found and arrested in intelligence lead raids and SOF operations.


    Yes, they are celebrated as heroes and their actions lauded.
    You must hate most of the arab world then for what the salafis did to Iraq after 2003.

    I don't see how the Palestinians are particularly bad in this aspect, surely you hate syrians, saudis and the jordanese more?
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    (Original post by Ferdowsi)
    You must hate most of the arab world then for what the salafis did to Iraq after 2003.

    I don't see how the Palestinians are particularly bad in this aspect, surely you hate syrians, saudis and the jordanese more?
    Honestly, there's not a great deal of difference between them. The only reason I'm talking about Palestinians is that they are the subject of this thread.

    Islamists are w nkers whatever their sect, but I do think Salafis are in a league of their own when it comes to this stuff. sometimes its comedic. You should see some of the debates on the Arabic language channels. Was watching this one debate between an Egypt Muslim Brotherhood guy and someone from the Salafi Nour party. The MB guy thought the Salafi was a retard, that's how bad they are, even other Islamists think they're dick heads.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    That is one of the most misused truisms ever. It is perfectly possible for someone to be scared of something, or indeed to hate it, precisely because they understand exactly what it is, while someone who does not really understand something might not know that it is something to be scared of.
    Forgive me
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    (Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
    Honestly, there's not a great deal of difference between them. The only reason I'm talking about Palestinians is that they are the subject of this thread.

    Islamists are w nkers whatever their sect, but I do think Salafis are in a league of their own when it comes to this stuff. sometimes its comedic. You should see some of the debates on the Arabic language channels. Was watching this one debate between an Egypt Muslim Brotherhood guy and someone from the Salafi Nour party. The MB guy thought the Salafi was a retard, that's how bad they are, even other Islamists think they're dick heads.
    haha I share your feelings on Islamists, although at least in Iran salafis are a fringe groups with no stake in anything and we don't have to deal with those pricks, Iraq gets the worst of everything. In fact, Iran's few salafis get funding from mossad pretending to be the cia LOL! I feel sorry for the young Egyptian secularists with big ideas who actually did the revolting and organising last year, unlike the cowardly islamists who jumped on right at the end (surprise surprise), and for the poor masses of Egypt to then go and elect a bunch of ignorant islamists to parliament. I mean, look at these idiots...

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    (Original post by 4RealBlud)
    I agree. The only way this could be resolved is if the palestinians accept a border with the israelis or israel is vanquished. This conflict will not be resolved tommorow
    Exactly.

    It must be one or the other.

    Israel will never denounce its own existence so something has to give.

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