Is support for independence higher in England than Scotland?

In my opinion the Scottish government represents the worst of socialism, and I for one, would welcome a Yes vote in 2014. How do other English people feel about Scottish independence?

Reply 1

loveslinus

I'm English (mostly).
In general I don't think Scottish independence can work.
England needs the oil, Scotland needs the money (especially if they want to keep free university).
However, in principal I think it could work out quite well for Scotland - you know, if they did have to worry about the small issue of financing the whole country! From hearing about the planned constitution if independence is won, it sounds like quite a "nice" place to live, i.e. a built in commitment to homelessness and no nukes (let's be honest - who's going to bomb Scotland?!). Not sure if they could actually stick by this though - maybe I'm just an idealist, and a socialist..... and a sucker for SNP propaganda :s-smilie:

Basically, in the unlikely event of them gaining independence - I'm moving to Scotland

But as an English person, would want Scotland to stay in the UK as I think we need each other!! From what I hear, most English people want Scotland to stay in the UK too.

Reply 2

Z-6H820

From people I know, everyone loves the idea, but doesn't think it will work... after so many years we are pretty much co-dependent! Also I don't see the point really. It's hardly a tyrannical rule or anything. A few things I would like to see change - like how it's a Tory (pretty much) government yet we voted in something like 1 or 2 Conservative MPs. Yet I don't know if you could really change that, because to be fair why should 5 million people have an equal voice with 50 million.
Any English people I've talked to have made a joke about how we should bugger off then admitted they're not bothered either way or actively want us to stay, they won't collapse without us, we're more likely to be screwed :tongue:

Reply 3

Kaiser MacCleg

11

I'd be interested to see some more polling data on this matter. The OP has made it clear he means support for Scottish independence in England, but support for the concept of English independence in particular is a topic that has seen very little (if any) research. I doubt the percentage would be particularly high but it would be interesting all the same.

Original post by loveslinus

However, in principal I think it could work out quite well for Scotland - you know, if they did have to worry about the small issue of financing the whole country!

Scotland wouldn't have any trouble financing itself.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 4

L i b

19

Original post by conway!

From people I know, everyone loves the idea, but doesn't think it will work

Clever sorts, clearly.

Reply 5

Z-6H820

Original post by L i b

Clever sorts, clearly.

I mean they like imagining Scotland as independent, the idea of not being associated with England, being able to cope as a country by itself, being patriotic, yet think logically practically it's not possible. I'm not sure where the sarkiness comes from there :tongue:

Reply 6

L i b

19

Original post by conway!

I mean they like imagining Scotland as independent, the idea of not being associated with England, being able to cope as a country by itself, being patriotic, yet think logically practically it's not possible. I'm not sure where the sarkiness comes from there :tongue:

You'd think the actual soundness of an idea would go some way toward determining its popularity...

For my part, I can't imagine any more depressing political stance. I am pro-union because I believe in the united political project that the British people are engaged in and have been for three centuries. If you don't, then frankly you're part of the problem.

Someone who would vote against Scottish separatism simply out of a bizarre notion that Scotland couldn't survive without subsidy or support may be doing the right thing, but for entirely the wrong reasons. In short, they've managed to double my contempt in being both Nationalist and being too cowardly to make a proper go of it.

Reply 7

Pigling

8

I prefer the idea of Scotland staying united (although not for any particularly strong reason). But I think it's only fair for the Scottish people to decide for themselves.

Incidentally I think Scotland is better run (more in line with my ideals) than England, but I don't know to what extent (if any) that's because somehow it's easier for the Scottish gov?

Reply 8

L i b

19

Original post by Pigling

Incidentally I think Scotland is better run (more in line with my ideals) than England, but I don't know to what extent (if any) that's because somehow it's easier for the Scottish gov?

Scotland has, for well over a century, received higher per capita funding on public services than its population share would allow for. Nationalists justify this - at least in modern times - by the amount Scotland contributes in tax: more than average, largely due to North Sea oil revenues.

I, for one, have always assumed that tax should be allocated on the basis of need rather than any thought as to who puts more in. As a result I have to admit this is unfair, despite being Scottish myself and having benefited from it.

Many have, however, pointed out that this level of spending may well have harmed Scotland's economy over the years and essentially made Scotland dependent on the state rather than as productive as we should be.

A second point is that this extra money has sheltered Scottish public services from reform. The NHS in Scotland is effectively still running the same way it did in England before the Blairite reforms. The outcome of this is that we spend more for poorer outcomes. This is going to be an increasing problem as our demographic timebomb hits - something that the Scottish Government is hiding its head in the sand over. Our ageing population will demand far more, and the Scottish NHS will be ill-equipped to provide it.

Reply 9

Rakas21

21

I'm a Scot living in England i believe that Scotland is part of a greater whole and should not leave the union.

Whilst i'm not a doom monger (i actually believe Scotland could survive alone) i believe that both England and Scotland would be weaker.

One thing that does concern me is that they could follow the example of Wales in terms of politics, not only do they waste state resources teaching an irrelevant language but their aversion to 'right wing' education and health reforms is now seeing them drop back compared to England. Additionally Lib makes a very good point, Scotland is aging faster than England by virtue of lower immigration and with a bigger reluctance to marketisation this will amplify its problems in the future.

Reply 10

TurboCretin

20

My primary concern would be economic, and from what I can glean from the stats it wouldn't make a great deal of difference either way. I don't claim to be hugely knowledgeable about that, though. From the political point of view, if the Scots vote for independence then I don't see what English opinion can do to affect that.

Reply 11

Z-6H820

Original post by L i b

You'd think the actual soundness of an idea would go some way toward determining its popularity...

For my part, I can't imagine any more depressing political stance. I am pro-union because I believe in the united political project that the British people are engaged in and have been for three centuries. If you don't, then frankly you're part of the problem.

Someone who would vote against Scottish separatism simply out of a bizarre notion that Scotland couldn't survive without subsidy or support may be doing the right thing, but for entirely the wrong reasons. In short, they've managed to double my contempt in being both Nationalist and being too cowardly to make a proper go of it.

Fair enough, though I don't think it's bizarre to worry that the country will fail on its own - it's the future generations who didn't get a vote in it who will suffer from whatever happens, got to be responsible here :tongue:

Personally I think I'm going to vote pro-union, because despite the stereotypes I have nothing against England, and I think it's for mutual benefit. I can see why some English people would want us out though, because to be fair we get a lot of benefits they don't, like free prescriptions and university fees. Even things like I've never been charged to park in a hospital car park yet there seemed to be a huge thing recently about people paying a lot of money just to park for an appointment, just little things that must get very irritating over the long run.
I know I'm being silly not knowing this, but does Scotland have any disadvantages to cancel out things like fees and prescriptions - like do England have other massive benefits that we don't get?

Reply 12

Ace123

2

I am English/really British and want Scotland to stay we are better together and I consider us one country and one people. The remainder of the UK would be ok if Scotland left as we would still be a powerful nation (around 55 million population) with a massive economy although slightly smaller. Scotland however would be at risk they would lose any presence in the world or the EU because they are simply too small, they have a similar population and size to Finland, Slovakia, Croatia and will be nothing like Norway or have all the oil. Scotland have everything to lose and not much to gain

Reply 13

GrumpyCat

4

I'd like scotland to remain with the UK, but if they want to leave I guess.

However apparently if they leave they cant charge us English peeps tuition fees

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 14

L i b

19

Original post by conway!

I know I'm being silly not knowing this, but does Scotland have any disadvantages to cancel out things like fees and prescriptions - like do England have other massive benefits that we don't get?

It's an interesting question. Off the top of my head--

- England-wide free swimming for over-60s.
- A cancer drugs fund which has left Scotland far behind in treating rarer cancers.
- A few years ago it was said that the system of student support was far superior in England than Scotland (although of course they had tuition fees) and that more cash could be accessed, particularly by the less well off. I have no idea how this is going now.

Reply 15

thegaffer91

15

I remain firmly in the "no" camp, primarily because there as so many operational issues that would be so difficult to overcome. For example, what would happen to british debt? Would Scotland start afresh with no debt at all leaving the rest of the UK with a higher debt-to-gdp ratio? If not, how on earth are they going to decide how it is split up. Also, what is going to happen to the equity and debt held around the bank bailouts? The UK currently have a lot of debt because of bailing out RBS (a Scottish bank) and Lloyds (caused by the purchase of HBOS, a Scottish bank), so surely it's fair for the Scottish government to take on the debt themselves? And what happens if everything goes to pot and Scotland turn into a Greece, even before they join the EU. Will they turn back to the UK for financial support? And not to mention issues like defence.

Reply 16

JayReg

14

North sea oil revenues have fallen quite dramatically in the last few years. It's one of the reasons GDP figures and borrowing figures have been so poor. In addition to the fact that the way North sea oil would be divided up would potentially give England a larger slice than you may expect due to the direction of the border on the east coast. In addition we spend more per capita on the Scottish than the English leads to me believing that England could cope just fine without Scotland. Not sure I could say the same the other way round. Also their political leaning is far left of the average in England.

In essence if they want to leave, I don't mind.

Reply 17

Rakas21

21

Original post by thegaffer91

I remain firmly in the "no" camp, primarily because there as so many operational issues that would be so difficult to overcome. For example, what would happen to british debt? Would Scotland start afresh with no debt at all leaving the rest of the UK with a higher debt-to-gdp ratio? If not, how on earth are they going to decide how it is split up. Also, what is going to happen to the equity and debt held around the bank bailouts? The UK currently have a lot of debt because of bailing out RBS (a Scottish bank) and Lloyds (caused by the purchase of HBOS, a Scottish bank), so surely it's fair for the Scottish government to take on the debt themselves? And what happens if everything goes to pot and Scotland turn into a Greece, even before they join the EU. Will they turn back to the UK for financial support? And not to mention issues like defence.

Excluding RBS it was calculated that they would have a 60% debt to GDP ratio with a deficit or around 10% i think.

RBS would probably stay in London anyway.

Reply 18

danielfigfoz

I don't think that many people in England care really. Scottish independence won't make any difference to anyone's lives anywhere.

Reply 19

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Kaiser MacCleg

I'd be interested to see some more polling data on this matter. The OP has made it clear he means support for Scottish independence in England, but support for the concept of English independence in particular is a topic that has seen very little (if any) research. I doubt the percentage would be particularly high but it would be interesting all the same.

Scotland wouldn't have any trouble financing itself.

Who would be the lender of last resort? So yes it would have trouble financing itself unless you're going to start saying the the European Central Bank will.

The echo earlier posts, it doesn't register on most peoples radar. People both sides of the border, and water are becmoing increasingly insular.
I sense a frustration in Scottish Nationalists that this isn't becoming a huge issue for peope in England even though they've tried unsuccessfully to stoke the fires of dissent and division. It's probably because no matter where you go in England you'll always find non locals, getting along with locals and realising hey ho, there's no mythical difference between us.

We live in a Democracy where everybody gets a vote to vote for who they want to represent them in Westminster. Although the SNP like to highlight that somehow Scots are hard done by in Westminster, they're not. After All 2 out of the 3 Prime Ministers we've had we're Scottish (I'm sorry guys but as Blair was born in Edinburgh you can wrap him in your flag.) as we're two of the last three Chancellors.

Many people who support it in England don't really. It's a natural response to anybody who says 'things are getting tough, we're out.' It's normal to pretend you're not bothered.

Is support for independence higher in England than Scotland?

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