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Was the TOV to blame for the rise of the Nazi's?

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    Everyone says that due to the Strict conditions of the treaty of versailles, even if it had not been Hitler, SOMEONE like him was bound to come along. However, looking at it in school at the moment, I don't think this was the case. The German economy was back on the rails with the introduction of the Reichmark, and due to the Young and Dawes plans Germany's economy stood a chance of rebuilding despite reparations. In 1925 Germany was accepted into the council of the League of Nations, allowing people to regain some national pride and it meant other predominant european countries accepted Germany as a growing nation again.

    Of course, in 1929 you had the Wall street crash, which led to the Young plan never being implemented, and Germany being forced to repay all the money they owned America.

    However, I still think Germany may have been able to recover from this if it hadn't been for Stresseman's death. Stresseman (I may be spelling this wrong) had already successfully got germany out of a depression once, and I think would have been able to again.

    I was just wondering what other peoples opinions on this were, clearly the Treaty of versailles did have a massive impact on Hitler rising to power, but I still feel that if it had not been for the wall street crash and stressemans death, he may not have done. Of course, Hitlers main following were in the Middle class, who lost most out Stressemans regime, so do you think this was a strong enough backing for him being able to become Chancellor even if Stresseman had lived? I am just interested to see what other peoples opinions are.

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    Well, the treaty had a lot to do with but the germans were just as ruthless to the russians during the brest-litovsk(spelling) treaty.

    A lot of people who voted for hitler never actually even knew about him or his policies.

    I would think that depression was one of the biggest factors in Hitler's rise. People would have felt that the current government wasn't doing enough and would have looked for an alternative. The alternative being Hitler's party.

    Pride also had to do with a lot of it. This brings us back to the treaty. Germans would have felt that they were being treated too harshly. A lot of germans would have felt like hitler and would have wanted revenge for their humiliation.
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    Answer to this is not simple and there are many reasons why Nazis came to power.- summery of my response would be all of these factors to be considered:

    TOV impacted very heavily on German people- depression was serious and this should not be underestimated- people were carrying wheel barrows full of money to buy loaf of bread! Inflation was mad. Nazi party was popular to certain classes of people- Nazis party played on the resentment the German people felt for the TOV- it's a myth that people didn't know what they were voting for-this myth was perpetuated in the West German narative after the partition of Germany so as to make the German people also victims of Hitlers- Don't underestimate the popularity- Germany was in caos- street fights and brawls were daily occurences between rival political parties- people wanted order to be restored on the streets- Nazis promised a strong governmentl. Perhaps here Germans lack of experienec with democracy comes into play- but moreover people were very worried about the Communist threat. Communism since the Russian revolution, seemed to be very threatening. The Reichstag fire (although not started by Nazis) was blamed on a Dutch communist-many people voted Nazis as a bulwark to communism. Also consider the Nazis media machiene- Goebells properganda was revolutionary in many ways.Also I think many people underestimated Hitler- Papenheim famously said - 'well squeeze him till his pips squeak' (of Hitler) - they thought Hitler would be their puppet- because he was popular they thought they coudl control him- but he was uncontrollable. Once Hitler was in power the west tried to appease him- but he was unappeasable.
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    oh and also maybe better to look before TOV back to Franco Prussian war (1871) when Germany humiliated France and took Alsace-Lorraine- Because of this Clemenceu of France (at TOV confrences) was determined to make Germany suiffer and of course steal back Alsace Lorraine. Germany was humiliated in WW1 -given war guilt even though it wasn't really their fault ect.
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    I think the rise of the Nazi party can be attributed to numerous factors. Obviously, the Treaty of Versailles and its moral and economic implications upon Germany played a significant role. But in my opinion, without the Wall Street crash of 1929 and the economic depression, the Nazi Party would never have gained the support it ended up with. The death of Stresemann in 1929 was catastrophic for Germany as he had played a major role in Germanys recovery prior to the Wall Street Crash.
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    (Original post by Woody17)
    I think the rise of the Nazi party can be attributed to numerous factors. Obviously, the Treaty of Versailles and its moral and economic implications upon Germany played a significant role. But in my opinion, without the Wall Street crash of 1929 and the economic depression, the Nazi Party would never have gained the support it ended up with. The death of Stresemann in 1929 was catastrophic for Germany as he had played a major role in Germanys recovery prior to the Wall Street Crash.
    This. Many factors contributed to the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, and the Wall Street crash was without a doubt the most important, but if you removed just one of the many factors then I doubt things would have been the same. The Treaty of Versailles also had huge implications for Germany, and without it and the "Stab in the back" myth, Hitler had no chance of gaining power.
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    hitler rose to power because the germans were scared that the bolshevik jews who murdered the tsars and destroyed russian civilisation were about to do the same to germany.
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    (Original post by Anomie)
    Germany was humiliated in WW1 -given war guilt even though it wasn't really their fault ect.
    They goaded Austria into declaring war on Serbia, handing them that infamous blank cheque, they declared war on Russia and France, they invaded Belgium, drew the Ottomans into the war and ultimately it was their military that caused by far the most carnage through out the war. So yeah, it actually was quite a bit their fault.
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    The TOV was at implemented a decade before the Hitler gained power. The TOV itself wasn't to blame for the rise of Hitler. The economic downturn and the rise of the left are much more potent in explaining why Hitler came to power.
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    Well, the TOV was hated by all Germans, and they wanted someone to get rid of it. One of Hitler's policies was to scrape the Treaty Of Versailles and to gain land lost to France (the Rhineland). He also promised economic policies for Germany.
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    (Original post by crocker710)
    The TOV was at implemented a decade before the Hitler gained power. The TOV itself wasn't to blame for the rise of Hitler. The economic downturn and the rise of the left are much more potent in explaining why Hitler came to power.
    The Treaty of Versailles was still instrumental in Hitler gaining power. No one factor can really be said to be more important than everything else; it was a combination of numerous factors that created the conditions that facilitated his rise.
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    (Original post by Destroyer25)
    The Treaty of Versailles was still instrumental in Hitler gaining power. No one factor can really be said to be more important than everything else; it was a combination of numerous factors that created the conditions that facilitated his rise.
    Why do you bother commenting on the history forum thread with **** like this? Remember the last thread; where you tried to talk BS about Israeli nuclear weapons? Let's not get to that again.

    If the ToV was such an 'instrumental' in Hitler gaining power why did it take 13/4 years to take affect? Why did the economic slum that Germany hit at the beginning of the 30's correlate to the massive jump in popularity of the National Socialists? The affect that Russia had on Germany, and for that matter the Italian's did; can't be understated, the middle classes who had seen the horrors of Russia were always going to turn to a right wing party when confronted with a decision between extreme left or extreme right.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    They goaded Austria into declaring war on Serbia, handing them that infamous blank cheque, they declared war on Russia and France, they invaded Belgium, drew the Ottomans into the war and ultimately it was their military that caused by far the most carnage through out the war. So yeah, it actually was quite a bit their fault.
    Sorry I didn't mean to sound as if I was absolveing Germany's role in WW1 completely, however I do feel that the responsibility for war guilt should not have been placed exclusively on Germany in the hummiliating manner that it was. I am not saying that they didn't capitalise on the oportunity to persue the agressive foreign policy that they did--only that they didn't deserve exclusive war guilt. Besides other countries had agresive geopolitical agendas and if we are going to judge Germany for it we should hold it against what other countries coveted in ww1 for example: Britian wanted the Ottomon question resolved in their favour, they wanted secure possession of Egypt and Palestine to name a few. Yes German artilery produced much carnage but Germany did suffer the most casualties- around 2.2 million acording to 'The American Promise' followed by Russia with 1.9, then 1.4 French.
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    (Original post by crocker710)
    Why do you bother commenting on the history forum thread with **** like this? Remember the last thread; where you tried to talk BS about Israeli nuclear weapons? Let's not get to that again.
    Clearly you have a revisionist agenda where the Treaty of Versailles had no effect on Germany. :rolleyes:

    (Original post by crocker710)
    If the ToV was such an 'instrumental' in Hitler gaining power why did it take 13/4 years to take affect?
    The treaty alone wasn't going to gain Hitler enough support. The armistice and the treaty gave birth to the stab in the back myth, which was wholeheartedly bought by the right wing, but wouldn't be accepted by the center until Hitler promised an end to Germany's economic problems and the restoration of her greatness. But without Hitler's initial support he got from the right he would have never gotten anywhere, and without the Treaty of Versailles he wouldn't have been able to radicalize the German people so that they could be brainwashed.

    Why did the economic slum that Germany hit at the beginning of the 30's correlate to the massive jump in popularity of the National Socialists?
    Because Hitler promised them jobs, as well as scapegoats in the form of the Weimar civilian government that signed the armistice and the Treaty of Versailles in collusion with the Jews and the Communists.

    (Original post by crocker710)
    The affect that Russia had on Germany, and for that matter the Italian's did; can't be understated, the middle classes who had seen the horrors of Russia were always going to turn to a right wing party when confronted with a decision between extreme left or extreme right.
    Nonsense, if they middle class is always going to turn to a right wing party then why was the monarchy overthrown in the first place? The Hohenzollern dynasty, the military and the business establishment were all right wing and had united the German peoples into one massive and powerful state. They had achieved great things for Germany, and yet in 1918 the country erupted into flames are left wing revolution spread across Germany, and even after the Communists were suppressed the people still looked to the Social Democratic Party to lead the new state. The SDP got power on November 9th 1918 because Prince Max correctly judged that they were the only ones who could maintain order.

    It wasn't until the 30s that the right wing had any serious support from the German people, and even then, the NSDAP only won 37.2% of the vote in the 1932 elections. I should also point out that the notion the the Nazis were a "right wing" party, is hardly correct. Most scholars recognize Nazism and Fascism as being politically syncretic. Both ideologies have little in common with true Conservative beliefs.
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    (Original post by Destroyer25)
    Clearly you have a revisionist agenda where the Treaty of Versailles had no effect on Germany. :rolleyes:
    Yeah you got me I scroll through TSR looking to spread this agenda :facepalm: ToV had little impact of the coming to power of Hitler.


    The treaty alone wasn't going to gain Hitler enough support. The armistice and the treaty gave birth to the stab in the back myth, which was wholeheartedly bought by the right wing, but wouldn't be accepted by the center until Hitler promised an end to Germany's economic problems and the restoration of her greatness. But without Hitler's initial support he got from the right he would have never gotten anywhere, and without the Treaty of Versailles he wouldn't have been able to radicalize the German people so that they could be brainwashed.
    The treaty + armistice didn't 'give birth' to the stab in the back theory at all. It gave it legs; but the myth was created on the front lines in the last days of the war. :facepalm2: Where's this massive support from the right wing? The NSDAP was a a tiny organisation; it started its numbering of members at 500 to inflate the actual amount (Hitler being No. 555). By the end of 1920 it had ~ 3000 members who were mainly family and friends of Hitler and Rohm.
    Because Hitler promised them jobs, as well as scapegoats in the form of the Weimar civilian government that signed the armistice and the Treaty of Versailles in collusion with the Jews and the Communists.
    You're either trolling or retarded. What do you think he was offering them before the economic downturn, MySpace, stickers and ponies? The economic downturn of Germany in the 1930's made people see the system they had wasn't working (so they believed) not that Hitler was some wonder figure who had miraculously found the answer to eternal youth.

    Nonsense, if they middle class is always going to turn to a right wing party then why was the monarchy overthrown in the first place? The Hohenzollern dynasty, the military and the business establishment were all right wing and had united the German peoples into one massive and powerful state. They had achieved great things for Germany, and yet in 1918 the country erupted into flames are left wing revolution spread across Germany, and even after the Communists were suppressed the people still looked to the Social Democratic Party to lead the new state. The SDP got power on November 9th 1918 because Prince Max correctly judged that they were the only ones who could maintain order.
    ROFL the Germany monarchy was only removed reluctantly and it wasn't the middle classes that forced him out it was Prussian Militarism. Prince Max judged that the SDP were the ones who could control the army. Why would the middle classes turn anywhere else but to the right in times of political extremism? Do you really think that the middle classes are going to be the turkey's and vote for Christmas?
    It wasn't until the 30s that the right wing had any serious support from the German people, and even then, the NSDAP only won 37.2% of the vote in the 1932 elections. I should also point out that the notion the the Nazis were a "right wing" party, is hardly correct. Most scholars recognize Nazism and Fascism as being politically syncretic. Both ideologies have little in common with true Conservative beliefs.
    well if we're playing the self contradiction game I could say anything, You've said that the right wing, being the NSDAP, only gained support of the people in 1932; but then said that the NSDAP wasn't right wing (and that's bs that 'most scholars' think it wasn't) :facepalm:
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    I think it has something to do with the structure of the Weimar constitution. Germany simply wasn't ready for that sort of democracy by this point, and so its weaknesses were inevitably going to be exploited by those opposed to its existence. Hitler took advantage of the difficulties in running the Weimar government and the socio-economic s**t-storm that had struck Germany, and played those off against German Imperial/Nationalism. If Hitler hadn't done it, somebody would have.
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    (Original post by roadlesstravelled)
    hitler rose to power because the germans were scared that the bolshevik jews who murdered the tsars and destroyed russian civilisation were about to do the same to germany.
    Brilliant
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    As people have already said, there's many reasons. But I think of the run up to his taking power, the biggest factors were Hindenburg and Von Papen underestimating Hitler.

    There were strong reasons to predict that civil war was imminent in the weeks leading up to Hitler being appointed Chancellor and the outing of Schlicher
    (spelling?) meant that a strong Chancellor was needed. As much as he disliked Hitler, Hindenburg chose to appoint him after being advised to by Von Papen (who had made a pact with Hitler to make himself Vice Chancellor) and the fact Hitler was a strong politician, whatever Hindenburg thought about him personally.

    Once in office Hindenburg tried to control Hitler by keeping the cabinet as Nazi free as possible, there were only 2 or 3 Nazis in the cabinet initially.

    If you look at the seat numbers in the Reichstag, the Nazis numbers had actually begun to drop when Hitler came to office as the economy began to stabilise again after the Wall Street Crash. The Nazis were actually surprised when Hitler got the appointment and thought they had already missed their one opportunity.

    While the Treaty and depression were great factors, one of the biggest reasons I'd argue was that Hitler took power through good ol' fashion back door scheming.
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    In one way it can be suggested that TOV was a short term factor that led to the nazis coming to power. However, there were also other factors thast should be considered.
    One of the factors which may be considered to be was the weimer republic. They were the jewish people that were controlling the country and making sure that the economy and the country was stable. The weimer republic were the parliament and in some they were to blame bcz they were not willing to share out the money that was going into the country. The parliament were makking a lot of money and were not prepared to lower their wages. At the same time, they had also used the taxes that they were getting to pay for the military and the armour to support the militia of 1914 within the war. Due to there being no money left over they were left with a downfall in money.
    The TOV may also be considered to be blamed as the part of Germany which was the RUHR which was the industrial part of Germany was taken over in by the allies as they realised they could not pay for the reparations. If the TOV hadent demanded such extreme consequences they would still have been able to sustain the economy.
    Other factord are also things like:
    - no strong leader between the time that stressmann died till hindenburg. Hindenburg was there yet he was old and couldnt take control
    -the great inflation of 1923- no money, banks collapsed, unemployment, ruhr taken over etc
    - right wing and left wing parties also starting emrging within the great inflation. If there had been no opposition there may never have been nazism to start off with.
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    (Original post by VictorDeLost)

    I would think that depression was one of the biggest factors in Hitler's rise. People would have felt that the current government wasn't doing enough and would have looked for an alternative. The alternative being Hitler's party.
    This. People always make bad decisions after recessions.

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