Political Corruption
Discuss issues related to the politics of the UK, such as the actions of any MP, any current or potential law, or any other factor affecting the British political system.
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Re: Political CorruptionNo, I don't.(Original post by Kibalchich)
You still need to explain this "chequebook" business.
You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand. If you haven't got it by reading over the past two pages, you never will.Last edited by marcusfox; 27-03-2012 at 16:41. -
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Re: Political CorruptionThat's cos its nonsense. Union members have a say in Labour party elections, always have done. For some reason, this confuses you and you think its akin to writing a cheque. Bizarre.(Original post by marcusfox)
No, I don't.
You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand. If you haven't got it by reading over the past two pages, you never will. -
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Re: Political CorruptionIts not confusing to me, its very simple. It's you who seem to have trouble understanding.(Original post by Kibalchich)
That's cos its nonsense. Union members have a say in Labour party elections, always have done. For some reason, this confuses you and you think its akin to writing a cheque. Bizarre.
To resolve this, you might want to ask yourself how only some unions (only affiliates) can vote in Labour leader elections while many cannot.
Then ask yourself how a union becomes an 'affiliate member' of the Labour party.
Should you require assistance in finding the answers, they have already been provided in pages 1 & 2.Last edited by marcusfox; 27-03-2012 at 17:22. -
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Re: Political CorruptionIf a union has democratically agreed to affiliate to Labour, then they get to have a say in the Labour party leadership. It's not rocket science ffs! Its about the historic role of the unions within the Labour Party. As I said earlier, you appear to know very very little about the history of the Labour party and trade unions. FWIW, individual union members get a choice whether they are affiliate members or not, by opting out of the political fund.(Original post by marcusfox)
Its not confusing to me, its very simple. It's you who seem to have trouble understanding.
To resolve this, you might want to ask yourself how only some unions (only affiliates) can vote in Labour leader elections while many cannot.
Then ask yourself how a union becomes an 'affiliate member' of the Labour party.
Should you require assistance in finding the answers, they have already been provided in pages 1 & 2.
You seem to have a very bizarre view of democracy, one in which independently run ballots which everyone knows about, are equivalent to Cruddas inviting business men to pay £250k to have dinner with Cameron! -
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Re: Political CorruptionMy father is part of Unite. I remember when he got his voting form for Labour leadership and the candidate to be put forward for the 2012 London mayoral election. He didn't care about it, so I filled it in for him. But I specifically remember an additional flyer from Unite which came with the voting leaflet, there were explicit instructions to tick the boxes "Ed Milliband" and "Ken Livingstone". We also had to declare we were labour voters, but they vote Conservative. I didn't think it was particularly fair to mindlessly command the 3 million members of Unite to vote for Ed Milliband without stating why. So naturally I ticked Diane Abbott (even though I despise her) and Oona King...
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Re: Political Corruptiongenuine lol(Original post by Mendeleev's Table)
Are you trying to say I'm wrong? -
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Re: Political CorruptionWhy hasn't your dad opted out of the political fund?(Original post by Bulbasaur)
My father is part of Unite. I remember when he got his voting form for Labour leadership and the candidate to be put forward for the 2012 London mayoral election. He didn't care about it, so I filled it in for him. But I specifically remember an additional flyer from Unite which came with the voting leaflet, there were explicit instructions to tick the boxes "Ed Milliband" and "Ken Livingstone". We also had to declare we were labour voters, but they vote Conservative. I didn't think it was particularly fair to mindlessly command the 3 million members of Unite to vote for Ed Milliband without stating why. So naturally I ticked Diane Abbott (even though I despise her) and Oona King... -
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Re: Political CorruptionWhat exactly are you trying to prove?
Yes or no would suffice. If you're going to debate, put your arguments forward in a clear, concise and sensible way.(Original post by Kibalchich)
genuine lol
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Re: Political CorruptionYou left out the inconvenient bit that I pointed out to you earlier. That a union isn't allowed to have Labour party affiliate membership without making a 'donation'.(Original post by Kibalchich)
If a union has democratically agreed to affiliate to Labour, then they get to have a say in the Labour party leadership. It's not rocket science ffs! Its about the historic role of the unions within the Labour Party. As I said earlier, you appear to know very very little about the history of the Labour party and trade unions. FWIW, individual union members get a choice whether they are affiliate members or not, by opting out of the political fund.
You seem to have a very bizarre view of democracy, one in which independently run ballots which everyone knows about, are equivalent to Cruddas inviting business men to pay £250k to have dinner with Cameron!
You keep insisting "they 'democratically' affiliate to the Labour party" whilst ignoring what a union has to do to get 'affiliate membership'.
When I pointed that out to you on page 2, you continued on as though I had never mentioned it, still plaintively whining "I don't get how 'affiliate membership' is a chequebook".
Could it be that you ignored this inconvenient fact from the bit you posted above in bold because it blows your argument out of the water?
And again, I'm not equating it with Cruddas. I'm comparing it with the way that Lib Dems and Conservatives elect their leaders. I've already said this.
If I wanted to find things that Labour have done to equate with Cruddas, I could find innumerable examples of 'cash for influence in the history of the Labour party government over the past 13 years.
But then I'd be here to the end of time. -
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Re: Political CorruptionSo if Unite are sending out postal voting papers with flyers that instruct the voter to select Ed, who is the 'independent body' that checks that all votes returned to Unite are counted in accordance with the voters preferences?(Original post by Bulbasaur)
My father is part of Unite. I remember when he got his voting form for Labour leadership and the candidate to be put forward for the 2012 London mayoral election. He didn't care about it, so I filled it in for him. But I specifically remember an additional flyer from Unite which came with the voting leaflet, there were explicit instructions to tick the boxes "Ed Milliband" and "Ken Livingstone". We also had to declare we were labour voters, but they vote Conservative. I didn't think it was particularly fair to mindlessly command the 3 million members of Unite to vote for Ed Milliband without stating why. So naturally I ticked Diane Abbott (even though I despise her) and Oona King...
Or any other number of innumerable possible problems that an election run on the basis of "You may select between A, B and C, please tick A, then send the form back to us and we'll make sure your vote is counted no matter who you choose. No, honestly, we will."Last edited by marcusfox; 27-03-2012 at 20:45. -
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Re: Political CorruptionUnions donate money to Labour. This is news to anyone? Maybe to someone living in bizarro world.(Original post by marcusfox)
You left out the inconvenient bit that I pointed out to you earlier. That a union isn't allowed to have Labour party affiliate membership without making a 'donation'.
You keep insisting "they 'democratically' affiliate to the Labour party" whilst ignoring what a union has to do to get 'affiliate membership'.
When I pointed that out to you on page 2, you continued on as though I had never mentioned it, still plaintively whining "I don't get how 'affiliate membership' is a chequebook".
Could it be that you ignored this inconvenient fact from the bit you posted above in bold because it blows your argument out of the water?
And again, I'm not equating it with Cruddas. I'm comparing it with the way that Lib Dems and Conservatives elect their leaders. I've already said this.
If I wanted to find things that Labour have done to equate with Cruddas, I could find innumerable examples of 'cash for influence in the history of the Labour party government over the past 13 years.
But then I'd be here to the end of time.
I'm still not sure how an independently run ballot equates to a "chequebook". Neither are you it seems. -
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Re: Political CorruptionI'm pointing out the history of the Labour Party to marcusfox as he appears ignorant.(Original post by Mendeleev's Table)
What exactly are you trying to prove?
I'm laughing at you. I'm laughing at you for saying "it's Unite, oh no, is it Unison, I don't know".(Original post by Mendeleev's Table)
Yes or no would suffice. If you're going to debate, put your arguments forward in a clear, concise and sensible way.
Are you trying to say I'm wrong?
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Re: Political CorruptionElectoral Reform Services(Original post by marcusfox)
So if Unite are sending out postal voting papers with flyers that instruct the voter to select Ed, who is the 'independent body' that checks that all votes returned to Unite are counted in accordance with the voters preferences?
Or any other number of innumerable possible problems that an election run on the basis of "You may select between A, B and C, please tick A, then send the form back to us and we'll make sure your vote is counted no matter who you choose. No, honestly, we will."
http://www.erbs.co.uk/ -
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Re: Political CorruptionBut, I didn't. The two sound very similar and I made that clear...(Original post by Kibalchich)
I'm pointing out the history of the Labour Party to marcusfox as he appears ignorant.
I'm laughing at you. I'm laughing at you for saying "it's Unite, oh no, is it Unison, I don't know".
Simple things and simple minds they say. -
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Re: Political CorruptionYou said "I assume you know that Unite (could be unison) contributes the most to the Labour Party per annum?"(Original post by Mendeleev's Table)
But, I didn't. The two sound very similar and I made that clear...
Simple things and simple minds they say.
Which I found amusing, 'cos you're asking me if I know something, when you admit that you don't. -
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Re: Political CorruptionDonors to the Conservative and Lib Dem parties don't get to vote on who the leader is.(Original post by Kibalchich)
Unions donate money to Labour. This is news to anyone? Maybe to someone living in bizarro world.
I'm still not sure how an independently run ballot equates to a "chequebook". Neither are you it seems.
With the unions, the chequebook comes out to make a donation and then they get to vote on their choice of Labour leader. No donations, no votes.
Without the unions votes, Dave would have won. Therefore, Ed was elected by the unions getting out their chequebook.
Already in this thread we've had at least anecdotal evidence of unions telling their members how to vote. Perhaps that's the definition of 'independent' in bizarro world...Last edited by marcusfox; 27-03-2012 at 23:04. -
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Re: Political CorruptionYes, union members get to vote because unions are affiliated to the Labour party, because they set up the Labour party.(Original post by marcusfox)
Donors to the Conservative and Lib Dem parties don't get to vote on who the leader is.
With the unions, the chequebook comes out to make a donation and then they get to vote. No donations, no votes.
Without the unions vote, Dave would have won. Therefore, Ed was elected by the unions getting out their chequebook.
Already in this thread we've had at least anecdotal evidence of unions telling their members how to vote. Perhaps that's the definition of 'independent' in bizarro world...
Yes, unions make recommendations on votes.
None of this is controversial.
What the hell is your point? You're coming across as completely ignorant of British history and politics. -
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Re: Political CorruptionSaid with the crux being that a union donates the most. You did not name any in the post I replied to, so the wrong name was hardly detrimental.(Original post by Kibalchich)
You said "I assume you know that Unite (could be unison) contributes the most to the Labour Party per annum?"
Which I found amusing, 'cos you're asking me if I know something, when you admit that you don't.
