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Believers give more to secular charities than non-believers do.

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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Mean income does decrease after retirement, obviously. However, mean wealth does not; you are at your very richest just after you retire. The 65+ group are both more likely to donate to charity, and more likely to be the ones donating the biggest sums. I believe this evidence does not even take account of people's wills, which are clearly a huge source of charitable donation that the elderly contribute.
    I don't believe that one is at their very richest after they retire. Most of worse off because the state pension and any occupational pension is invariably much less that previous income from employment...and most do not have the opportunity to increase income from that which is fixed. Consequently, mean wealth decreases substantially, particularly since the mid 2000 years because the stock market crash wiped out the value of stocks and bonds.

    I think you'll find that most retirees 'will' whatever assets they have to their families. It tends to be those without families who leave their assets to dogs and cats homes.

    Far too many assumptions (especially those that presume great wealth) about the elderly here, methinks.

    Anyway, I admire your defence of a claim made by another poster. It's a shame he hasn't returned to defend the indefensible himself.


    (Original post by mahaneap)

    People who have time to waste on worshiping their imaginary friends generally have more money to give away.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I don't believe that one is at their very richest after they retire. Most of worse off because the state pension and any occupational pension is invariably much less that previous income from employment...and most do not have the opportunity to increase income from that which is fixed. Consequently, mean wealth decreases substantially, particularly since the mid 2000 years because the stock market crash wiped out the value of stocks and bonds.

    I think you'll find that most retirees 'will' whatever assets they have to their families. It tends to be those without families who leave their assets to dogs and cats homes.

    Far too many assumptions (especially those that presume great wealth) about the elderly here, methinks.
    Did you even read my post!? I provided clear and conclusive evidence that the elderly contribute the most to charity, and you response is just baseless opinion?

    Anyway, I admire your defence of a claim made by another poster. It's a shame he hasn't returned to defend the indefensible himself.
    From the 2001 census:

    Younger people are more likely than older people not to belong to any religion, reflecting the trend towards secularisation. Among 16 to 34 year olds in Great Britain, almost a quarter (23%) said that they had no religion compared with less than 5% of people aged 65 or over.
    I wouldn't claim its because 'they have nothing to do' (although having more time and more need to reflect on what to do with your money may contribute to charitable giving amongst religious and non-religious retirees) - its because younger generations are less religious. Fact. Unless, of course, your opinion is that it isn't true, in which case i have to defer to that :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Did you even read my post!? I provided clear and conclusive evidence that the elderly contribute the most to charity, and you response is just baseless opinion?
    Apart from the source being US based and therefore not indicative of the situation for pensioners in the UK, it was also from an investment company that seeks to sell products to working people with the promise of attractive rewards at the end of their working lives.

    In this country, there is a scheme of top-up payments called Pensioner Credits for those whose retirement income is so low that it needs to be topped up to a level that is equivaled to subsistence levels. We do not have very many wealthy pensioners in this country despite the best efforts of politicians for whom it suits to propagate the belief that the elderly are generally very wealthy.

    My opinion is not baseless...I work with the elderly and know how very difficult it is for them to lead a life that is comparable to those of working age.


    Unless, of course, your opinion is that it isn't true, in which case i have to defer to that :rolleyes:
    Please...sarcasm ill-behoves mature and respectful debate.

    I have no problem with the opinion that some of the young are less religious than their parents and grandparents - although you wouldn't think so from talking to the members of the TSR Christian Society.
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    (Original post by RK)
    For a Christian it's not "do good, get saved", but more "get saved, do good". It's definitely a widely held belief amongst non-believers that it's the other way around. Indeed, I'd suspect some more "casual" Christians might not realise this too.
    Very well put!

    I'm religiously ignorant so excuse me in advance, but surely everyone goes to heaven even if they don't believe? I not where do the atheist who are "good" people go?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Apart from the source being US based and therefore not indicative of the situation for pensioners in the UK, it was also from an investment company that seeks to sell products to working people with the promise of attractive rewards at the end of their working lives.

    In this country, there is a scheme of top-up payments called Pensioner Credits for those whose retirement income is so low that it needs to be topped up to a level that is equivaled to subsistence levels. We do not have very many wealthy pensioners in this country despite the best efforts of politicians for whom it suits to propagate the belief that the elderly are generally very wealthy.

    My opinion is not baseless...I work with the elderly and know how very difficult it is for them to lead a life that is comparable to those of working age.
    Doesn't change the fact that the evidence shows the elderly contribute more to charity.

    Clearly, some elderly do not have savings and are not very well off at all - a larger proportion than with working people. However, there are also a rather large group of rather rich retirees too.


    [/quote]Please...sarcasm ill-behoves mature and respectful debate.

    I have no problem with the opinion that some of the young are less religious than their parents and grandparents...[/quote]

    Well neither does completely ignoring the evidence presented before you, as you rather bafflingly do once again below, although perhaps you aren't entirely serious.

    ...although you wouldn't think so from talking to the members of the TSR Christian Society.
    I think the census is more reliable

    So basically, the elderly are more likely to be religious, and contribute more to charity, which explains a degree of the difference shown by the source in the OP. I don't think you can continue to dispute any of that?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Doesn't change the fact that the evidence shows the elderly contribute more to charity.

    Clearly, some elderly do not have savings and are not very well off at all - a larger proportion than with working people. However, there are also a rather large group of rather rich retirees too.
    That wasn't part of your original claim though, was it?

    Mean income does decrease after retirement, obviously. However, mean wealth does not; *you are at your very richest just after you retire. The 65+ group are both more likely to donate to charity, and more likely to be the ones donating the biggest sums. I believe this evidence does not even take account of people's wills, which are clearly a huge source of charitable donation that the elderly contribute. And it is that claim that I am contesting.
    Your source relates to residents of the USA...not Britain!!! As such, the information is not relevant to us living here. My only reservation, and you can check back with my posts,was that pensioners are at their very richest just after they retire.

    Meanwhile, back in the UK (remember that TSR is a British forum with British residents receiving incomes equivalent to other British residents)
    In 2009-10 pensioner couples where the head was aged 75 or over had an average net income of £400 a week after housing costs per week, compared with £493 for those aged under 75.
    Taken fromhttp://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd6/2009_10/pi_series_0910.pdf


    So you see, your claim that the incomes of pensioners are higher than incomes generally is a bit of a non-starter, especially since the average income of the working population is around £26,000 pa whereas the average income of a pensioner couple (that's two people, not an individual) is around £5,816. Big difference, eh?

    I doubt very much whether pensioners who on an average basis, have meagre incomes could afford to donate more to charity than anyone else. It could of course be a fact that our grandparents come from a generation that is not so self-obsessed.

    I'm not going to keep arguing the toss with you. Your original premiss as applied to UK pensioners regarding incomes has been proved inaccurate so you'll just have to accept that and move on.

    Good night, young man...and God bless you.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    That wasn't part of your original claim though, was it?



    Your source relates to residents of the USA...not Britain!!! As such, the information is not relevant to us living here. My only reservation, and you can check back with my posts,was that pensioners are at their very richest just after they retire.

    Meanwhile, back in the UK (remember that TSR is a British forum with British residents receiving incomes equivalent to other British residents)


    Taken fromhttp://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd6/2009_10/pi_series_0910.pdf


    So you see, your claim that the incomes of pensioners are higher than incomes generally is a bit of a non-starter, especially since the average income of the working population is around £26,000 pa whereas the average income of a pensioner couple (that's two people, not an individual) is around £5,816. Big difference, eh?

    I doubt very much whether pensioners who on an average basis, have meagre incomes could afford to donate more to charity than anyone else. It could of course be a fact that our grandparents come from a generation that is not so self-obsessed.

    I'm not going to keep arguing the toss with you. Your original premiss as applied to UK pensioners regarding incomes has been proved inaccurate so you'll just have to accept that and move on.

    Good night, young man...and God bless you.
    I do not know if you are being deliberately dense now yawn - twice my posts have emphasised the difference between income and wealth, and its an irrelevant debate anyway as the data from the UK Giving shows the elderly donate more to charity. Everything you have said is debatable at best, but is irrelevant anyway.

    Good night.
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    (Original post by Lilio Candidior)
    Do take a gander on this article.

    As part of a Christian tradition that posits that believers and non-believers are equally moral/immoral, I'm a bit surprised at the very strong correlation between religious faith and giving of both time and money to secular charities.

    Doesn't this show that, at the very least, that there is a connection between religious faith and generosity? Statistics is definately not my strong suit so I hoped that someone with more aptitude than me could tell if the research of this article is sound. If the research is sound, then I would say that this is evidence for the position that religious folks actually are more likely to have certain virtues, while non-believers are less likely to. What do you think?
    That article doesn't seem to understand the difference between a secularist and an atheist. Most religious people I know are firm secularists, and oftentimes they are the people who benefit most from a secular society.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I do not know if you are being deliberately dense now yawn - twice my posts have emphasised the difference between income and wealth, and its an irrelevant debate anyway as the data from the UK Giving shows the elderly donate more to charity. Everything you have said is debatable at best, but is irrelevant anyway.

    Good night.
    I have addressed your evidence that the elderly donate more to charity, regardless of how meagre their incomes are in comparison of those who are of working age, simply because of their moral beliefs.

    In our grandparents time, they were not seeking the 'riches' that we seek now. The culture of giving was not encumbent, as it is now, on how much we had left to support ourselves because we were less selfish than we are now.

    In other words, our grandparents were content with a standard of living that did not require the amassing of possessions as now. They were not competitive in their lives as we are now. As an example; when they got married, their worth was not based on how ostentatious the event was...there was not the climate of competition as now. Everything worldly was much less important than it is now. What was important was the quality of life, not the acquisitions of life. Our grandparent were raised in times of greater magnanimity that us.

    Good night...

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