[Carpediemxx]

An operation doesn't change your genetics. He is a man whether he likes it or not. Having an operation and living as a female is a lifestyle choice, which if what he wanted is a very brave thing to do. I respect them as a person, but if the competition states clearly " must be female from birth" then you cannot complain when you are disqualified!

[Imposition]

(Original post by kerily)
Yes, she is. A trans woman is a woman.


The whole thing is disgusting. I disagree that she wasn't a 'naturally-born woman' anyway; she was born a woman, and there's nothing unnatural nor gender-invalidating about having a trans history.

I'll assume you're talking about a parallel universe. Because she clearly wasn't


if you have a transgender past, then clearly at some point in time you were another gender

[Bellissima]

(Original post by whyumadtho)
Because it is an inherently discriminatory competition organised by a private corporation that has no obligation to permit anybody. They assess people according to certain parameters, which this contestant has knowingly broken. Miss Universe projects a plethora of harmful messages about what constitutes beauty and femininity to people who choose to use the contestants as an archetype of beauty and femininity; this is only one out of a string of ethical issues that surrounds the organisation. However, I stand by my assertion that if people do not like their policies they are free to boycott Miss Universe, organise their own beauty pageant or simply ignore the competition.

It may not matter societally, but it matters in terms of the rules organised by this private corporation.

i am saying it is discriminatory and saying their reasoning behind that rule is rooted in prejudice. that is a problem in my opinion. in your original post you asked what the problem is with their ruling and that's what this thread is about. i doubt you would say "whats the problem" in the same way if in their rules they had a rule saying people born black are not allowed to enter.
i am saying it is wrong. i think prejudice and discrimination is a problem.
i have not commented on their ability to do this, though i do not think they should be able to discriminate, if they can and want to do it then they are going to.

i'm not sure what your point is.

[Arekkusu]

To be fair, in all probability the rules will get changed in response to the incident, this is what usually happens.

I think there is a valid point to be made about natural beauty. We can consider the effects of hormone therapy as natural, but not any fake breast implants or similar. It should be an exception to the rule though because who bases their ideal of beauty on what someone's tits look like anyway?

[hannahchan]

has anyone actually seen the video? apparently all contestants were men.

[d123]

(Original post by VictorDeLost)
Ok. She's got the right to see herself as a woman.
However, she is a transgender and while without knowledge of her past you would think she has always been a woman, she should identify herself as a transgender because she wasn't always a woman and had to go through surgery to make herself look like a woman.

Also. Should men compete in womens tennis??

No, she is actually a woman. Gender isn't something you can or should determine for someone else. If she sees herself as a woman, and selfidentifies as such, then she is a woman. End of.

There are other posters on here who are far more knowledgeable about this issue than I am, but I'm fairly sure that the statement 'she wasn't always a woman' is wrong; just because she was born with 'male' genitalia doesn't mean she wasn't born a woman, gender and sex are very different concepts.

[maitai]

(Original post by CherryCherryBoomBoom)
I remember reading this story earlier today, and I think someone said that the contest is about natural beauty, so even if Jenna self-identifies as female, her breasts etc obviously aren't natural so that would disqualify her. I feel kinda bad for her, but if that's the rules, then what can ya do really?

That's what I was thinking, but very many Miss Universe contestants before her have had plastic surgery - rhinoplasty, breast enlargement, etc. Is it really fair to judge her on her procedures when practically everyone in the pageant has had at least one? It seems a little odd.

[fitzy.]

Ha, look at you all, fighting over a tranny.

[FrogInABog]

(Original post by kerily)
Yes, she is. A trans woman is a woman.

'Woman' implies both cis women and trans women. If they want a competition that's cis-women-only, then they should put that in the title. Whereas a 'Miss Trans World' or something would imply that only trans people could compete, hence why cis people shouldn't compete.

The whole thing is disgusting. I disagree that she wasn't a 'naturally-born woman' anyway; she was born a woman, and there's nothing unnatural nor gender-invalidating about having a trans history.

Sorry, but by that logic, they would have to put all the rules in the title. As someone earlier said, you're not allowed to enter if you are a mother, but that's no reason to call it "Miss Never-had-a-child Universe". The rules are the rules, right or wrong. If she lied about her entry to get in, she should be kicked out. If she wanted to compete, she should have been honest and requested permission before entering.

I'm a heterosexual male; I think she's an incredibly attractive woman, and I would never has guessed that she used to be a man. But that doesn't mean she can bypass the competition regulations.

Edit: Yes, I did read the last part of that post, but whether or not she was born a woman is a completely different debate altogether.

[cl_steele]

i see no problem with it being kicked out... the rules were crystal clear its a competition for women, this is not a women ergo it should have known what was coming when it lied.

[whyumadtho]

(Original post by Bellissima)
i am saying it is discriminatory and saying their reasoning behind that rule is rooted in prejudice.

Do you know that or are you speculating?

that is a problem in my opinion. in your original post you asked what the problem is with their ruling and that's what this thread is about. i doubt you would say "whats the problem" in the same way if in their rules they had a rule saying people born black are not allowed to enter.

No, I wouldn't have a problem. This is a private corporation with certain discriminatory parameters that people choose to enter. If they knowingly break the rules of entry they deserve to get kicked out.

i am saying it is wrong. i think prejudice and discrimination is a problem.
i have not commented on their ability to do this, though i do not think they should be able to discriminate, if they can and want to do it then they are going to.

i'm not sure what your point is.

My point is that they are a private corporation that has certain conditions of entry. They are fully in their right as a private corporation to establish these rules if they wish, and you are fully in your right to establish a corporation with an egalitarian policy if you wish.

[fitzy.]

If you watch this video, there appear to be more transgenders in this competition. It's all a bit fishy to be honest with the DM article.

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

(Original post by maitai)
That's what I was thinking, but very many Miss Universe contestants before her have had plastic surgery - rhinoplasty, breast enlargement, etc. Is it really fair to judge her on her procedures when practically everyone in the pageant has had at least one? It seems a little odd.

Have they? I wasn't really aware tbh, but if that's the case then maybe it is a little unfair. Then again, beauty pageants aren't the most credible and worthy things in the world anyway. Maybe Jenna is better off not being a part of all that mess tbf.

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

(Original post by fitzy.)


If you watch this video, there appear to be more transgenders in this competition. It's all a bit fishy to be honest with the DM article.

That's a different competition from 2010, that I think was especially for transwomen. The one she just got banned from this year was one that wasn't for transwmen.

[fitzy.]

(Original post by CherryCherryBoomBoom)
That's a different competition from 2010, that I think was especially for transwomen. The one she just got banned from this year was one that wasn't for transwmen.

Trust the DM to post a video from a different contest.

[tommm]

(Original post by whyumadtho)
The competition rules state explicitly that entrants must be 'naturally born females'. If this contestant intentionally broke the rules set out by this privately organised competition, she deserves to be removed from the process. The rules also state the contestants must never have been parents or married, but that doesn't mean there is some agenda set out against these people.

In short: she entered a private competition with explicit rules. She broke the rules. She got kicked out. What is the problem?

This isn't the issue - the real question is whether it is fair for the competition to exclude transgender women in the first place.

I would agree with your perspective - that the competition is privately organised and should be able to set whatever rules it wants - but others may disagree.

[d123]

(Original post by cl_steele)
i see no problem with it being kicked out... the rules were crystal clear its a competition for women, this is not a women ergo it should have known what was coming when it lied.

'it'?
'this'?

Please use less offensive language when you're discussing someone. We have personal pronouns for a reason; calling someone 'it' is highly offensive. I realise that's probably the effect you were aiming for.

[Bellissima]

(Original post by whyumadtho)
Do you know that or are you speculating?

No, I wouldn't have a problem. This is a private corporation with certain discriminatory parameters that people choose to enter. If they knowingly break the rules of entry they deserve to get kicked out.

My point is that they are a private corporation that has certain conditions of entry. They are fully in their right as a private corporation to establish these rules if they wish, and you are fully in your right to establish a corporation with an egalitarian policy if you wish.

that's what this thread is about, the reason why that rule is there and the fairness of it. not the ability of Miss Universe to exclude her, which they can.

i am not asking about their ability to throw her out or not, which is what you keep commenting on. i've said nothing about that, obviously they are able to do it. i am saying i think it is wrong.

you are assuming she knowingly broke the rules. she could have said "i am female", because she is, and they counted that breaking the rules... one of many possibilities. i cannot find any requirements online for miss canada/universe that say you have to be born with a female body.

i am not interested in making my own beauty pageant but that does not mean i cannot comment on the equality of those that already exist.

[whyumadtho]

(Original post by tommm)
This isn't the issue - the real question is whether it is fair for the competition to exclude transgender women in the first place.

I would agree with your perspective - that the competition is privately organised and should be able to set whatever rules it wants - but others may disagree.

The two issues are inextricably linked. If the organisation wishes to discriminate based on past events (including marital and parental histories), it is their right to do so. From a societal perspective, it is not fair, but it is also unfair to proscribe those who are in a relationship during the competition or were ever married/parents. The competition is assessing persons conforming to particular parameters, not women in general.

[Imposition]

(Original post by d123)
No, she is actually a woman. Gender isn't something you can or should determine for someone else. If she sees herself as a woman, and selfidentifies as such, then she is a woman. End of.

There are other posters on here who are far more knowledgeable about this issue than I am, but I'm fairly sure that the statement 'she wasn't always a woman' is wrong; just because she was born with 'male' genitalia doesn't mean she wasn't born a woman, gender and sex are very different concepts.

She can identify herself as a woman if she wants. But she was not born as one. She has achieved her looks through operations. So once Again, why should she be allowed to take part in a competition for women who were born as women?
Surely then we should let people who have taken steroids to compete with people who haven't?