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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    If youd played rugby at all, youd have known you can only use FEET in a Ruck, using hands is an automatic penalty :dunce:

    A Maul allows you can reach down to a ball that is in the hands of a downed player, whilst standing your feet. This takes a great deal of leg and back strength particualrly when you could have the equivalent of 20 stones of rugby player pushing you down.
    If a player is downed it isn't a maul *facepalm*... This isn't even something I can argue for... it just is, it's impossible to argue with you. It'd be like you trying to tell me the grass is green if I said it wasn't. Can you explain why it is? Probably not, it just is.

    I didnt say 'a maul was a way to counter judo' i used it as an example to dmeonstrate functional strength in a rugby player - despite techniques used, becasue judo is a sporting activity, it still relies heavily too on strength and fitness i grappling- exactly the traits of a semi pro rugby player. A proper martial artist would recognise this fact.
    In Judo you use your opponents strength against them. If someone pushes forward on you, you let their strength do the work with a throw. Strength doesn't come that much into it. It's all about a shift in balance. If you're using too much strength it's probably due to bad technique. Strength and fitness isn't particularly relevant. I've trained with people who were smaller, weaker and less fit than I am and they've tossed me around and made me their little bitch simply because they had excellent skill. I regularly train with rugby players/ex-rugby players and they often get dominated because they rely purely on strength which doesn't work in Judo against someone with skill.

    And again ididnt say rugby players have 'clinch experience' - the clinch is a simplistic technique at best trying to throw your opponent off balance - whilst rugby players dont train this, they do train maintaining footing and balance with 19 stone forwards trying lift their legs away from all angles- it is perfectly applicable to some judo kid like you trying to bring them to the floor.
    Whoa, whoa, I'm talking about a thai clinch in this situation. Thai clinching is not 'simplistic' at all. It's been developed over thousands of years and is actually quite complex and requires a lot of experience to handle expertly. Let's think up some scenarios. A thai boxer grabs your next, squeezes his forearms together, what do you do? Ok, let's try reaching up to his arms... BANG, knee to the solar-plexus. How about going for your 'head attack' move, you push forward, he drags you to the side and plants a knee on your face. He goes for a cross arm (a legitimate escape, maybe he somewhat knows what he's doing) but he's too slow and imprecise, the thai fighter reaches to the other side of the head and plants a knee on his ribs.

    Also, you should note that a rugby player trying to take you off balance is very different to a martial artist doing so...

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    Once again -i didnt say headbutt :facepalm:. again you inferred that becuase of your tiny knowledge of fighting as oppossed to wrestling in judo giis. to head butt someone using your forehead is not possible in a thai clinch, to drive the top of your skull which is far more substantial into your jaw is devastating.
    It's the same thing. You don't have the space to move your head properly, and if you do you'll be dragged off balance. Muay Thai was originally developed for pure combat, it's effective against people trying to headbutt you. You obviously don't understand the thai clinch so i'll explain it to you. In a thai clinch, you pull down hard on the back of the neck (experienced thai fighters will know the best spots where they can apply the most pressure) and then use their forearms/elbows like a pincer to trap the head. There is not enough head movement to apply that kind of attack. Any attempt to do so will be clearly spotted and you'll be ripped off balance and knee in the face.

    There are a number of variations of striking in close combat with the head - which is why i dont like talking with basic judo ppl lke yourself who have no concept of proper combat techniques. You would have never experienced this becuase presuambley its outlawed in judo. Dont invade a conversation with ignorance, unless you are willing to go away and least do a little research.
    I'm not a 'judo' person, I've trained in several martial arts... I'm not even particularly good at Judo. I do muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ too, to different extents. I know what works and I know what doesn't work.

    And hey, before you tell me to do a 'little research', why don't we go back to that time you said that judo was a ground-based support. I know you love to ignore this but I find it way too hilarious to let go... it just shows your ignorance of martial arts and fighting in general. You tell me to do research but all of my explanations are based on logic and experience whereas all your posts basically involve you saying 'This is this because it is and I'm not listening! *clamps hands on ears*' whilst peppering it with pathetic attempts at insults because clearly your posts don't actually hold up by themselves.

    And finally - you clearly are a complete beginner in terms of thai boxing if you think a thai boxer would attempt to control a far larger rugby player in a head clinch- or that such a player that can comfortably shift double your full weight on his traps in a scrum, couldnt power out of your clinch round the back of his head. The ignorance of that comment is almost laughable.
    Well obviously someone WAY smaller than someone else wouldn't rely too heavily on something like a thai clinch, not least because they probably wouldn't be able to reach. In that case simply caking them with elbows or punches would do the trick, given that someone that large would be too slow to avoid them or do any damage themselves. It'd be like getting a muay thai fighter who's 4ft tall and weighs 100 pounds to fight someone who's 10ft tall and weighs 400 pounds and then saying 'Ha! Look, muay thai doesn't work!' There are always ways round the size differences if they are untrained, ALWAYS. Maybe not the clinch, just boxing instead. And no, I'm not a beginner in muay thai, or martial arts in general.

    So yes, you have made it abundantly clear that you are a simple keyboard warrior, and its embarrasing just to talk to you quite frankly. Is there any subject that you have even a little knwoledge on?
    Is judo a ground-based martial art?
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)

    In Judo you use your opponents strength against them. If someone pushes forward on you, you let their strength do the work with a throw. Strength doesn't come that much into it. It's all about a shift in balance. If you're using too much strength it's probably due to bad technique. Strength and fitness isn't particularly relevant. I've trained with people who were smaller, weaker and less fit than I am and they've tossed me around and made me their little bitch simply because they had excellent skill. I regularly train with rugby players/ex-rugby players and they often get dominated because they rely purely on strength which doesn't work in Judo against someone with skill.


    Strength is required grapple, whether you apply techniques or not, and significant amoutns of energy are used up. Thats why judo guys are drenched with sweat within minutes of wrestling.
    There is reason why in judo competiton why weight classes are matched- if its soley about technique, why arnt 9 stone guys fighting 16 stone guys ? becuase it is a sport pure and simple.

    Martial arts on the other hand is largely about techniquem becasue the idea is you train to defend yourself against the strong 20 stone guy or the lightining quick 12 stone guy. It applies the principle "use the technique that gives you most advantage and them least advantage. Half the stuff a proper martial artist is taught for CQ combat, a judo kid wouldnt be allowed to use."


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)


    Whoa, whoa, I'm talking about a thai clinch in this situation. Thai clinching is not 'simplistic' at all. It's been developed over thousands of years and is actually quite complex and requires a lot of experience to handle expertly. Let's think up some scenarios. A thai boxer grabs your next, squeezes his forearms together, what do you do? Ok, let's try reaching up to his arms... BANG, knee to the solar-plexus. How about going for your 'head attack' move, you push forward, he drags you to the side and plants a knee on your face. He goes for a cross arm (a legitimate escape, maybe he somewhat knows what he's doing) but he's too slow and imprecise, the thai fighter reaches to the other side of the head and plants a knee on his ribs.


    again your attempt to try teach me makes me laugh out loud - firstly muay thai isnt "thousands of years old" - one of the earliest muay boran versions that the guys i spar use lopburi, is barely 1000 years old itself.

    In answer to your question, he uses oppossite hands to sharply push down on the inside of your elbows thus lowering your upper body while at the same time drives top of his head upward into your jaw - thats school boy stuff seriously. the muay boran styles use the 9 point strikes ie use of the head too in clinches - because you are a keyboard beginner, you didnt even know that.

    [QUOTE=Dr. Bassman;36520192]





    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)

    It's the same thing. You don't have the space to move your head properly, and if you do you'll be dragged off balance. Muay Thai was originally developed for pure combat, it's effective against people trying to headbutt you. You obviously don't understand the thai clinch so i'll explain it to you. In a thai clinch, you pull down hard on the back of the neck (experienced thai fighters will know the best spots where they can apply the most pressure) and then use their forearms/elbows like a pincer to trap the head. There is not enough head movement to apply that kind of attack. Any attempt to do so will be clearly spotted and you'll be ripped off balance and knee in the face.



    again see point above re 9 point striking :rolleyes: then go out and try some of what you tap inanely on your keyboard



    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)


    I'm not a 'judo' person, I've trained in several martial arts... I'm not even particularly good at Judo. I do muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ too, to different extents. I know what works and I know what doesn't work.

    And hey, before you tell me to do a 'little research', why don't we go back to that time you said that judo was a ground-based support. I know you love to ignore this but I find it way too hilarious to let go... it just shows your ignorance of martial arts and fighting in general. You tell me to do research but all of my explanations are based on logic and experience whereas all your posts basically involve you saying 'This is this because it is and I'm not listening! *clamps hands on ears*' whilst peppering it with pathetic attempts at insults because clearly your posts don't actually hold up by themselves.


    judo is the watered down sport form of the jitsu, how does that work for you.


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)


    Well obviously someone WAY smaller than someone else wouldn't rely too heavily on something like a thai clinch, not least because they probably wouldn't be able to reach. In that case simply caking them with elbows or punches would do the trick, given that someone that large would be too slow to avoid them or do any damage themselves. It'd be like getting a muay thai fighter who's 4ft tall and weighs 100 pounds to fight someone who's 10ft tall and weighs 400 pounds and then saying 'Ha! Look, muay thai doesn't work!' There are always ways round the size differences if they are untrained, ALWAYS. Maybe not the clinch, just boxing instead. And no, I'm not a beginner in muay thai, or martial arts in general.



    Oh, right so, go back on your original point then that strength and size is unimportant in grappling -well done.

    Where did i is say muay thai doesnt work ? again why do wish to embarrass yourself further by making **** up? I said a proper boxer wont thai clinch a guy who is strong enough to break it - ie a semi pro rugby prop for example. A proper fighter will stay on the outside and use speed and accuracy
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    There is so much retard in Indo-Chinese Food's posts. It's pretty obvious that this can only be resolved with . . . TSR GONG SAU! :mad:
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    There is so much retard in Indo-Chinese Food's posts. It's pretty obvious that this can only be resolved with . . . TSR GONG SAU! :mad:
    I'm not sure I can be bothered with him anymore. He's just too sure of himself. He keeps telling me I know nothing about martial arts but he said that judo was a ground-based martial art not long ago and refuses to acknowledge it.

    He doesn't understand basic logic. I might as well give it a go though...
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    I'm not sure I can be bothered with him anymore. He's just too sure of himself. He keeps telling me I know nothing about martial arts but he said that judo was a ground-based martial art not long ago and refuses to acknowledge it.

    He doesn't understand basic logic. I might as well give it a go though...
    I know; I've stopped replying to his posts unless I'm really bored. Kung Fool Logic - like Woman Logic only even more illogical, haha.

    I remember that. Funny because I've never been to a Judo club that does more than 10% ne-waza. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Strength is required grapple, whether you apply techniques or not, and significant amoutns of energy are used up. Thats why judo guys are drenched with sweat within minutes of wrestling.
    There is reason why in judo competiton why weight classes are matched- if its soley about technique, why arnt 9 stone guys fighting 16 stone guys ? becuase it is a sport pure and simple.
    Against untrained opponents stength is not relevant, and in a close quarters street fight stamina will not be an issue. Competitions are put in weight classes because against other trained fighters strength does make a difference and the competitions are intended to show who has the most skill.

    Martial arts on the other hand is largely about techniquem becasue the idea is you train to defend yourself against the strong 20 stone guy or the lightining quick 12 stone guy. It applies the principle "use the technique that gives you most advantage and them least advantage. Half the stuff a proper martial artist is taught for CQ combat, a judo kid wouldnt be allowed to use."
    I train with huge people all the time and also tiny people. Guess what, I've had no problems with some of the big people (I'm talking people 110-120kg, I'm 70kg) because they were untrained but have been tossed about by people who weigh about 50kg simply because they were much better than me.

    again your attempt to try teach me makes me laugh out loud - firstly muay thai isnt "thousands of years old" - one of the earliest muay boran versions that the guys i spar use lopburi, is barely 1000 years old itself.
    Plenty of muay thai practitioners would argue that it is. There's no evidence to suggest it isn't. Either way, hundreds or thousands of years is easily enough time to develop complex clinch techniques.

    In answer to your question, he uses oppossite hands to sharply push down on the inside of your elbows thus lowering your upper body while at the same time drives top of his head upward into your jaw - thats school boy stuff seriously. the muay boran styles use the 9 point strikes ie use of the head too in clinches - because you are a keyboard beginner, you didnt even know that.
    Oh, sorry, you mean the rugby player that I'm supposedly fighting is now a muay boran practitioner? LOL, does he also shoot lasers from his eyes? Any random guy you fight would know to do that and secondly, it's not as simple as 'oh, he just does this'. If you aren't perfectly precise and quick with your arms you'll expose yourself and the muay thai fighter can knee your ribs/solar-plexus. You assume every move is a simple 'oh, just do this' because that's obviously how you train. You don't actually work it in real life situations so you wouldn't be aware of how someone with a really tight clinch and really sharp awareness would tear you apart if you tried that and weren't perfectly precise. But go ahead, keep giving this supposedly untrained rugby player more skills.

    judo is the watered down sport form of the jitsu, how does that work for you.
    Is judo a ground-based martial art?

    Oh, right so, go back on your original point then that strength and size is unimportant in grappling -well done.
    Relatively, of course. If you're seriously way bigger than your opponent then obviously it'll be harder for them. If you're just bigger than them it won't make a large enough difference to not be beaten.

    Where did i is say muay thai doesnt work ? again why do wish to embarrass yourself further by making **** up? I said a proper boxer wont thai clinch a guy who is strong enough to break it - ie a semi pro rugby prop for example. A proper fighter will stay on the outside and use speed and accuracy
    Thai clinches aren't just broken by strength. It requires serious technique to escape them. Muay thai fighters are in good shape and have ridiculously tight grips. You assume (clearly because you train with them) that people who use muay thai clinches will have average strength. That's not even slightly true. Someone who has trained in muay thai will have a very strong grip, not something you can just power out of. Muay thai fighters are athletes too...





    (Original post by Einheri)
    I know; I've stopped replying to his posts unless I'm really bored. Kung Fool Logic - like Woman Logic only even more illogical, haha.

    I remember that. Funny because I've never been to a Judo club that does more than 10% ne-waza. :rolleyes:
    It's kind of a shame. It's pretty obvious he's just parroting whatever his sifu or whatever told him about martial arts. Then he's going to make people blindly believe what he's saying.

    My judo club does like 30% newaza I'd say. We do a fair bit more than usual because in competitions our team has a habit of getting it down to the ground and winning from there. You'd be surprised at how little people train for being put in another guy's guard. I've caught quite a few people with triangles (though it's a bit tough, because no pulling down on the back of the head in judo) and armbars or swept them and gotten holdings from there. I normally get ippon'd later on in a competition though because my stand up work isn't so good. I'm not too sure why... I just barely ever throw people.
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    It's kind of a shame. It's pretty obvious he's just parroting whatever his sifu or whatever told him about martial arts. Then he's going to make people blindly believe what he's saying.

    My judo club does like 30% newaza I'd say. We do a fair bit more than usual because in competitions our team has a habit of getting it down to the ground and winning from there. You'd be surprised at how little people train for being put in another guy's guard. I've caught quite a few people with triangles (though it's a bit tough, because no pulling down on the back of the head in judo) and armbars or swept them and gotten holdings from there. I normally get ippon'd later on in a competition though because my stand up work isn't so good. I'm not too sure why... I just barely ever throw people.
    Yeah, still, it takes a real moron to post what Indo-Chinese Food posts.

    Wow, that's a lot. I have to say my Judo clubs groundwork is quite underdeveloped. I don't think I've been tapped by anyone but the instructor in ne-waza randori. Also, most people seem to think that the cross-collar choke is a good counter to closed guard, hmmm . . . gotta question that. They are seriously good at the big ippon-winning throws though - I've developed my Osoto Gari, Uchi Mata, Osoto Makikomi and Harai Goshi to a pretty decent level. All I learned in BJJ was a million variations of double/single leg takedowns, a basic O Goshi, and Kata Guruma.

    Maybe try working on your counter throwing (I originally had the problem of not being aggressive enough and waiting for the other person to initiate)? Uchi Mata is a really good throw to get down for this purpose - just about everything can be countered with a form of Uchi Mata, haha. Also get yourself a couple of really solid combinations - Seoi Nage spinning out to Morote Gari is really high percentage (Rhadi Ferguson has an awesome instructional DVD on this) and probably my favourite.
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    When I was very little (5/6) my first Judo club also had a reasonable focus on ground work and we'd spend about 20-30% of the time focusing on it.
    Part of that might have been because we were so young, in retrospect. I don't think it's all that uncommon though I can see why its not the best way
    to do things Judo style. Meh groundwork is a serious gap in my arsenal and I need to spend more time in BJJ schools.
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    Yeah, still, it takes a real moron to post what Indo-Chinese Food posts.

    Wow, that's a lot. I have to say my Judo clubs groundwork is quite underdeveloped. I don't think I've been tapped by anyone but the instructor in ne-waza randori. Also, most people seem to think that the cross-collar choke is a good counter to closed guard, hmmm . . . gotta question that. They are seriously good at the big ippon-winning throws though - I've developed my Osoto Gari, Uchi Mata, Osoto Makikomi and Harai Goshi to a pretty decent level. All I learned in BJJ was a million variations of double/single leg takedowns, a basic O Goshi, and Kata Guruma.

    Maybe try working on your counter throwing (I originally had the problem of not being aggressive enough and waiting for the other person to initiate)? Uchi Mata is a really good throw to get down for this purpose - just about everything can be countered with a form of Uchi Mata, haha. Also get yourself a couple of really solid combinations - Seoi Nage spinning out to Morote Gari is really high percentage (Rhadi Ferguson has an awesome instructional DVD on this) and probably my favourite.
    Cross collar choke is a bad idea. I love it when people try it on me... I mean I really encourage it by leaving it slightly open, tilting my head to open up the choke and then when they have it on gagging a bit and looking uncomfortable when really I'm laughing in my head. Extending your arm like that in someone's guard is never a good idea. Armbars are so easy to get if you do that. Another thing I like to do if someone tries that on me is to basically strike their elbows/forearm/wrist (whichever is more appropriate for the time) and then spin round and take their back. It's quite hard but sometimes really works a treat, especially if they start applying all their weight on the arm, they'll jolt forwards if you attack it. It's really hard to even submit them from that choke anyway... you just don't get enough pressure on it. Sure, it's really uncomfortable for me but I'm not going to pass out and they're just wasting their energy and putting themselves in danger from it.

    I love having a good guard for judo. I like to go for (bad) tomoe nage's because even if they don't work it's pretty much guaranteed to hit the floor, hopefully in my guard. Pulling guard in Judo isn't allowed so I basically do the next best thing. My problem is I treat it too much like BJJ and so sometimes they escape and catch me in a holding which I'm really bad at getting out of. I'd probably be better at BJJ but meh, I find Judo to be more useful in many ways.
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Cross collar choke is a bad idea. I love it when people try it on me... I mean I really encourage it by leaving it slightly open, tilting my head to open up the choke and then when they have it on gagging a bit and looking uncomfortable when really I'm laughing in my head. Extending your arm like that in someone's guard is never a good idea. Armbars are so easy to get if you do that. Another thing I like to do if someone tries that on me is to basically strike their elbows/forearm/wrist (whichever is more appropriate for the time) and then spin round and take their back. It's quite hard but sometimes really works a treat, especially if they start applying all their weight on the arm, they'll jolt forwards if you attack it. It's really hard to even submit them from that choke anyway... you just don't get enough pressure on it. Sure, it's really uncomfortable for me but I'm not going to pass out and they're just wasting their energy and putting themselves in danger from it.

    I love having a good guard for judo. I like to go for (bad) tomoe nage's because even if they don't work it's pretty much guaranteed to hit the floor, hopefully in my guard. Pulling guard in Judo isn't allowed so I basically do the next best thing. My problem is I treat it too much like BJJ and so sometimes they escape and catch me in a holding which I'm really bad at getting out of. I'd probably be better at BJJ but meh, I find Judo to be more useful in many ways.
    No **** - it's armbar and triangle city. The only attack that ever works from inside someone's guard is sitting back for leglocks and that is very likely to get you mounted if you aren't brilliant at them (I've seen Ezekiel Choke/Sode Guruma Jime work as well, but you'd catch someone once with that and never again). What is funny is when a Judoka stands up from your open guard (which would cause the ref to call matte in a Judo tournament) only to have you switch to De la Riva, pull them back to the floor and take their back - the look of "what the hell just happened to me?" is priceless.

    Flavio Canto does that all the time - Tomoe Nage then sweep or sub. I can hardly ever hit traditional Tomoe Nage but Yoko Tomoe Nage is sweet. I train both, but BJJ more.
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    I would love to join this society, if it's possible.
    Is it possible? I'm searching after societies at the moment.
    I'm almost a martial artist for five years so I think it would suit to me.
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Against untrained opponents strength is not relevant, and in a close quarters street fight stamina will not be an issue. Competitions are put in weight classes because against other trained fighters strength does make a difference and the competitions are intended to show who has the most skill.

    You wont always fight against 'untrained' opponents outside of a dojo either. Again you have contradicted yourself - if judo is so technique biased- why aren't those techniques competed against all size of opponent instead of segregating into weight classes? Martial arts were designed to give the smaller guy the tools to fight larger opponents - or did you not know that?


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)

    Plenty of muay thai practitioners would argue that it is. There's no evidence to suggest it isn't. Either way, hundreds or thousands of years is easily enough time to develop complex clinch techniques.

    Actually theres lots of evidence of the origins of muay thai as we know is approx 7-900 years old - only an idiot would try and pretend it has been around "thousands of years" How exactly do you expect to hold an argument if you make up history lol?

    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Oh, sorry, you mean the rugby player that I'm supposedly fighting is now a muay boran practitioner? LOL, does he also shoot lasers from his eyes? Any random guy you fight would know to do that and secondly, it's not as simple as 'oh, he just does this'. If you aren't perfectly precise and quick with your arms you'll expose yourself and the muay thai fighter can knee your ribs/solar-plexus. You assume every move is a simple 'oh, just do this' because that's obviously how you train. You don't actually work it in real life situations so you wouldn't be aware of how someone with a really tight clinch and really sharp awareness would tear you apart if you tried that and weren't perfectly precise. But go ahead, keep giving this supposedly untrained rugby player more skills.

    I dont train muay thai, i spar with muay thai guys - You asked me a specific question about a scenario you had dreamt up- I offerred an answer, again I should have realised any technical explanations I make will be lost on a teenage judo wannabe 'martial artist'. Using opposite hands to your opponents blocks the knee strike because your arms form a crossbase :rolleyes: While youre poncing about on one leg, youve lost most of your teeth. I think that pretty much confirms your tiny knowledge of muay thai comes from movies and youtube.

    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Is judo a ground-based martial art?
    Sort of, simply a simplified sport originally for japanese school kids that prioritises grabbing and throwing someone to the ground.

    To quote the Gracie academy on this because it is fairly conclusive-"Judo (Kano's version of Jiu-Jitsu) was watered down from the complete form of Jiu-Jitsu"



    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Thai clinches aren't just broken by strength. It requires serious technique to escape them. Muay thai fighters are in good shape and have ridiculously tight grips. You assume (clearly because you train with them) that people who use muay thai clinches will have average strength. That's not even slightly true. Someone who has trained in muay thai will have a very strong grip, not something you can just power out of. Muay thai fighters are athletes too...

    I didnt say they weren't - but to compare them in strength terms with a semi pro rugby forward is retarded- they simply wont have the strength in the forearms and wrists to hold a guys head down that is significantly stronger. Thats why a proper thai boxer rather than a keyboard warrior wouldn't*even try.
    The same keyboard warrior that didnt even know muay thai involved head-butting and 9 point strikes - and yet tries to lecture others on muay thai techniques LOL. I suppose this is the maximum level of intelligence in the average judo pupil?


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    It's kind of a shame. It's pretty obvious he's just parroting whatever his sifu or whatever told him about martial arts. Then he's going to make people blindly believe what he's saying.

    My judo club does like 30% newaza I'd say. We do a fair bit more than usual because in competitions our team has a habit of getting it down to the ground and winning from there. You'd be surprised at how little people train for being put in another guy's guard. I've caught quite a few people with triangles (though it's a bit tough, because no pulling down on the back of the head in judo) and armbars or swept them and gotten holdings from there. I normally get ippon'd later on in a competition though because my stand up work isn't so good. I'm not too sure why... I just barely ever throw people.


    (Original post by Einheri)
    I know; I've stopped replying to his posts unless I'm really bored. Kung Fool Logic - like Woman Logic only even more illogical, haha.

    I remember that. Funny because I've never been to a Judo club that does more than 10% ne-waza. :rolleyes:
    yeh it is funny, to see two judo kiddies massaging each others egos on an interent forum and then flail rather pathetically when it comes to knowledge of proper martial arts.
    Ive been fortunate to experience a range of martial arts teaching, kung fu is just a small part of that– but I still like to have a laugh at the judo kiddies who get the hump when it is pointed out they should be on a sports and hobbies thread, not one about martial arts.
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    (Original post by Kallisto)
    I would love to join this society, if it's possible.
    Is it possible? I'm searching after societies at the moment.
    I'm almost a martial artist for five years so I think it would suit to me.
    Lol you don't have to ask permission
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    You wont always fight against 'untrained' opponents outside of a dojo either. Again you have contradicted yourself - if judo is so technique biased- why aren't those techniques competed against all size of opponent instead of segregating into weight classes? Martial arts were designed to give the smaller guy the tools to fight larger opponents - or did you not know that?
    There is usually an "Absolute Division" along with weight-segregated divisions at Judo and BJJ tournaments, as well as "superfights. At the Olympics? No, but the Olympics is not the be-all-and-end-all of Judo competition, in fact many Judoka (including me) would like to see Judo removed as an Olympic sport as it's bad for the art and has too much effect on how it is trained in the gym.

    As an example of a superfight:



    Karim Byron weighed 375lbs, Kron Gracie weighs 175lbs . . . and Kron beat him with an armlock! There goes your "hurr durr doesn't teach smaller opponents to tackle bigger opponents". And Karim is a legit black belt.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    yeh it is funny, to see two judo kiddies massaging each others egos on an interent forum and then flail rather pathetically when it comes to knowledge of proper martial arts.
    Ive been fortunate to experience a range of martial arts teaching, kung fu is just a small part of that– but I still like to have a laugh at the judo kiddies who get the hump when it is pointed out they should be on a sports and hobbies thread, not one about martial arts.
    Kiddies? I'm three years younger than you - that's nothing. Hmm, yeah, learning to break and dislocate joints, choke people unconcious or to death, and throw them to the ground is pretty much the same as tennis or volleyball isn't it? :rolleyes: "oh yeah but only throw them on their back" when you know how to control someone during a throw it is very easy to dictate where and how they land; it wouldn't be hard to throw someone on their head, and even in training on three-inch thick mats it is very possible to injure people - I've personally dislocated a guy's rib with Kuzure Osoto Gari during hard sparring and winded quite a few more.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    You wont always fight against 'untrained' opponents outside of a dojo either. Again you have contradicted yourself - if judo is so technique biased- why aren't those techniques competed against all size of opponent instead of segregating into weight classes? Martial arts were designed to give the smaller guy the tools to fight larger opponents - or did you not know that?
    If you're fighting against someone who's well trained in muay thai, muay boran, judo whatever then it isn't expected that you will win. Your entire argument has been based on how these martial arts are supposedly useless in real life and use an example of someone else being trained in them as an example of why they are. You've basically twisted an example so much with bizarre logic that it's impossible to even reply to that. Judo is technique based but if two people are of the same skill then size and strength will come into play. Strength is not a factor against untrained opponents because skill is far far far more important than strength, just that size can be a deciding factor. As ^ proved, often it isn't though.

    Martial arts weren't purely designed for fighting larger people. There are loads of reasons why different martial arts sprang up. Some of them for true warfare and others for competition, certain styles of wrestling for example.

    EDIT:

    Weight classes also exist for safety. In Judo it isn't safe for someone absolutely enormous to land on someone tiny. Same with other martial arts.

    Actually theres lots of evidence of the origins of muay thai as we know is approx 7-900 years old - only an idiot would try and pretend it has been around "thousands of years" How exactly do you expect to hold an argument if you make up history lol?
    I'm not trying to pretend it is, just that it's regularly claimed to be. The real origins of it aren't hugely well documented.

    I dont train muay thai, i spar with muay thai guys - You asked me a specific question about a scenario you had dreamt up- I offerred an answer, again I should have realised any technical explanations I make will be lost on a teenage judo wannabe 'martial artist'. Using opposite hands to your opponents blocks the knee strike because your arms form a crossbase :rolleyes: While youre poncing about on one leg, youve lost most of your teeth. I think that pretty much confirms your tiny knowledge of muay thai comes from movies and youtube.
    Tell me about your 'sparring'. You always go on about it but I'd like to know more about what you actually do. I get the feeling that these 'muay thai guys' aren't actually going full-on muay thai against you or they're using your style or something. It'd be like some judo guy beating me, calling me a kickboxer and saying that it proves judo > kickboxing.

    So you put your hand down to block, great, enjoy the nice elbows that will then slice your face. You don't know how to defend against a thai clinch, face it. What hand do you suppose you'll use to make me 'lose most of my teeth' (LOL, slapping my teeth is going to make me lose them). If you try and strike with your hands you're going to eat knees or elbows, both of which I guarantee would be harder than being slapped in the face. You're ridiculous. You claim that you just 'confirmed' my lack of knowledge by saying 'hurr, you'd lose most of your teeth'. That's not a technical explanation. All you've provided is one defence which would easily be countered.

    Sort of, simply a simplified sport originally for japanese school kids that prioritises grabbing and throwing someone to the ground.
    No, not at all. You avoided the question for so long because it was embarrassing for you. Judo is a stand-up based sport. It doesn't reach the ground that often in a fight, if at all. it's certainly not ground based, sorry to break it to you.

    I didnt say they weren't - but to compare them in strength terms with a semi pro rugby forward is retarded- they simply wont have the strength in the forearms and wrists to hold a guys head down that is significantly stronger. Thats why a proper thai boxer rather than a keyboard warrior wouldn't*even try.
    Not even remotely true. Muay thai fighters train specifically all the time to clasp peoples' necks like a snake. Their grips are incredibly strong and technically precise. I've had coaches who looked physically quite average but when they grabbed my neck it felt like a 20 stone man was pulling it down and around at full strength. Sure, rugby players are strong but they aren't trained to fight off clinches and even if they eventually do power out they will have been unable to defend themselves before doing so and will have taken several knees and elbows.

    The same keyboard warrior that didnt even know muay thai involved head-butting and 9 point strikes - and yet tries to lecture others on muay thai techniques LOL. I suppose this is the maximum level of intelligence in the average judo pupil?
    Lolwut, I do know about muay boran but as YOU pointed out earlier, a head-butt is not the same thing as a strike with the head by a thai fighter. If someone is seriously trained in that style then using the head is a legitimate technique but you've basically placed that skill and technique onto the made up scenario we had and when I called you out on someone 'just headbutting you' you were like 'OMG NO, IT'S NOT JUST A HEADBUTT!!1!' and now you've gone and called it a head-butt. Good job, nice and illogical.

    Also, stop calling me a judo kid. I'm primarily a striker, I don't know where you keep getting this idea that I'm a judo guy. I love judo and I think it's great but I'm not particularly good at it compared to my striking and train far less. I understand its capabilities though.

    yeh it is funny, to see two judo kiddies massaging each others egos on an interent forum and then flail rather pathetically when it comes to knowledge of proper martial arts.
    Ive been fortunate to experience a range of martial arts teaching, kung fu is just a small part of that– but I still like to have a laugh at the judo kiddies who get the hump when it is pointed out they should be on a sports and hobbies thread, not one about martial arts.
    This has nothing to do with egos. We're talking about how it's a crying shame that so many people pass on their incorrect beliefs that the 'sports' martial arts systems don't work and that wing tsun etc. does. I don't like it when people hype up martial arts that aren't effective and end up wasting peoples' time, money and hard work or actually managing to convince them and end up with them passing it on too. It's like with Taekwondo... on its own it's not particularly useful and I know plenty of TKD black belts who basically regret having started it and not learnt something more effective.
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    (Original post by TheJ0ker)
    Lol you don't have to ask permission
    I'm a polite person. Nevertheless I want to know where is the link to join this society. I cannot find it nowhere.
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    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    If you're fighting against someone who's well trained in muay thai, muay boran, judo whatever then it isn't expected that you will win. Your entire argument has been based on how these martial arts are supposedly useless in real life and use an example of someone else being trained in them as an example of why they are. You've basically twisted an example so much with bizarre logic that it's impossible to even reply to that. Judo is technique based but if two people are of the same skill then size and strength will come into play. Strength is not a factor against untrained opponents because skill is far far far more important than strength, just that size can be a deciding factor. As ^ proved, often it isn't though. .



    I was pointing out the simplistic idiocy of expecting every opponent you meet to walk up to you and grab you by the shirt. And for them to be conviently your exact height and weight. It must run through all judo players given the shared ignorance on tsr - (incidentally-you do know they are called "players" as in players of a game)
    So, perfectly suitable for throwing aggressive drunks to the pavement - but in reality very few of them were would be particularl.[/QUOTE]
    y well balanced in the first place - so is a black belt judo in judo even needed?

    Someone with decent martial arts knowledge is unlikely to be close enough for you to effect judo, and even if they were would immedatly attack vitals or prone areas and pain receptors in cq combat - how many throws or holds have you effected in this real time equivalent scenario - if its zero, id suggest all the 1000s of hours of mat time you and einheri have enjoyed stretching each others shirts is worth pretty much diddly squat.


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Martial arts weren't purely designed for fighting larger people. There are loads of reasons why different martial arts sprang up. Some of them for true warfare and others for competition, certain styles of wrestling for example.
    .
    Originally they were, they later became soldier training and mercenary training, bodyguards etc where weapons werent alwasys accessable or permitted. in each case they were based on a sicence of the best way to combat any adversary faster, stronger, heavier etc by applying intelligence to a fight. judo (in your example) strikes off the intelligence factor.


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    EDIT:

    Weight classes also exist for safety. In Judo it isn't safe for someone absolutely enormous to land on someone tiny. Same with other martial arts.
    .


    Perhaps the only accurate comment you have ever made - so in reality it cant be safe to practice judo if this happens out in the real world either, can it.


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    I'm not trying to pretend it is, just that it's regularly claimed to be. The real origins of it aren't hugely well documented. .


    A lot of things are claimed, do you beleive and then try and pass off everything that is claimed and has little or no evidence?



    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Tell me about your 'sparring'. You always go on about it but I'd like to know more about what you actually do. I get the feeling that these 'muay thai guys' aren't actually going full-on muay thai against you or they're using your style or something. It'd be like some judo guy beating me, calling me a kickboxer and saying that it proves judo > kickboxing.

    So you put your hand down to block, great, enjoy the nice elbows that will then slice your face. You don't know how to defend against a thai clinch, face it. What hand do you suppose you'll use to make me 'lose most of my teeth' (LOL, slapping my teeth is going to make me lose them). If you try and strike with your hands you're going to eat knees or elbows, both of which I guarantee would be harder than being slapped in the face. You're ridiculous. You claim that you just 'confirmed' my lack of knowledge by saying 'hurr, you'd lose most of your teeth'. That's not a technical explanation. All you've provided is one defence which would easily be countered.
    .


    No, try reading what i actually posted from the start. As i said its a pointless excercise me trying to clarify the finer points of muay thai combat to a lay person over the internet that doesnt have the capacity to learn in the first place. I think judo is the best match for you, all things considered, so im not going to bother labouring this particular point.



    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    No, not at all. You avoided the question for so long because it was embarrassing for you. Judo is a stand-up based sport. It doesn't reach the ground that often in a fight, if at all. it's certainly not ground based, sorry to break it to you.

    .
    Of course.




    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Not even remotely true. Muay thai fighters train specifically all the time to clasp peoples' necks like a snake. Their grips are incredibly strong and technically precise. I've had coaches who looked physically quite average but when they grabbed my neck it felt like a 20 stone man was pulling it down and around at full strength. Sure, rugby players are strong but they aren't trained to fight off clinches and even if they eventually do power out they will have been unable to defend themselves before doing so and will have taken several knees and elbows.
    .


    I dont think you fully understand what a thai clinch is.



    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Lolwut, I do know about muay boran but as YOU pointed out earlier, a head-butt is not the same thing as a strike with the head by a thai fighter. If someone is seriously trained in that style then using the head is a legitimate technique but you've basically placed that skill and technique onto the made up scenario we had and when I called you out on someone 'just headbutting you' you were like 'OMG NO, IT'S NOT JUST A HEADBUTT!!1!' and now you've gone and called it a head-butt. Good job, nice and illogical. .



    Yes, of course, you did know ALL about muay boran and 9 point striking there can be no doubt, but for some reason failed to mention either when taking about muay thai sparring and leaving yourself open to getting struck by your opponents head. to educate you just a little, the head butt with the forehead, striking upward with the top of the head, even the rear of the skull, where the bone is most dense, these are all uses in valid muay techniques. Of course you knew all abot them but just held back till i mentioned them all first.

    yes of course.

    :facepalm:

    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    Also, stop calling me a judo kid. I'm primarily a striker, I don't know where you keep getting this idea that I'm a judo guy. I love judo and I think it's great but I'm not particularly good at it compared to my striking and train far less. I understand its capabilities though. .



    You know as much about striking as donkey with no legs.


    (Original post by Dr. Bassman)
    This has nothing to do with egos. We're talking about how it's a crying shame that so many people pass on their incorrect beliefs that the 'sports' martial arts systems don't work and that wing tsun etc. does. I don't like it when people hype up martial arts that aren't effective and end up wasting peoples' time, money and hard work or actually managing to convince them and end up with them passing it on too. It's like with Taekwondo... on its own it's not particularly useful and I know plenty of TKD black belts who basically regret having started it and not learnt something more effective.
    wing tsun is perfectly effective in practice of self defence when trained properly, judo is useful against drunks and cuddle-friendly assailants. If anyone is giving people false and contrived info from a basic wiki and youtube knowledge , its kiddies like you.
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    (Original post by Einheri)

    Hmm, yeah, learning to break and dislocate joints, choke people unconcious or to death, and throw them to the ground is pretty much the same as tennis or volleyball isn't it? :rolleyes: "oh yeah but only throw them on their back" when you know how to control someone during a throw it is very easy to dictate where and how they land; it wouldn't be hard to throw someone on their head, and even in training on three-inch thick mats it is very possible to injure people - I've personally dislocated a guy's rib with Kuzure Osoto Gari during hard sparring and winded quite a few more.
    None of which is unique to or originated from judo - i have never set foot in a judo school and yet know how to do all of the above, so what was your point exactly?

    :rolleyes:

    From whatever i have seen of judo competiton, including fairly high level competion, guys throwing other guys on to the floor is all well and good as a sport, but most of them still end up on the floor too and in many cases are smashing their own head, knee, hip even back ino the ground at the same time or soon after the throw - so what is the point of the throw in the first place? In a sports envirnoment on mats its passable, on a hard surface you are as liklely to injure yourself as the other guy. Stupidity?
    Having sat through your comical clip of a a small guy and a hugely out of shape fat guy in his pyjamas leaning on each other in what resembled sumo wrestling, i noted the same thing, both were ending up on the floor ontop of each other at various stages until the fat guy seemd to have lost his breath and the ability to even stand up - you say these are black belts ? lol
    Kano recognised his version of judo was not for the purpose of outdoor self defence, he intended it for a purpose of a wrestling style competion on mats, which is why he did take imspiration from Sumo and europena wrestling for his system. In additon the actively tried to marketing it to the west and america in the knowledge that japanese ju jistu practioners wouldnt want to teach westerners the complete jitsu combat systems. Ithink you need to stop trying to kid yourself.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    I was pointing out the simplistic idiocy of expecting every opponent you meet to walk up to you and grab you by the shirt. And for them to be conviently your exact height and weight. It must run through all judo players given the shared ignorance on tsr - (incidentally-you do know they are called "players" as in players of a game)
    So, perfectly suitable for throwing aggressive drunks to the pavement - but in reality very few of them were would be particularl.
    y well balanced in the first place - so is a black belt judo in judo even needed?[/quote]

    In self-defence you aren't going to be the aggressor in general. The chances of someone charging at you or grabbing you is VERY LIKELY in self-defence. If you're in a situation where there's distance between yourself and the attacker you shouldn't attack them, just GTFO. Maybe you're thinking about street fights or something else. Also, as proven, height and weight doesn't mean anything against untrained opponents, skill is a much great factor. They can be called players or fighters, hear both regularly. What they're called is irrelevant. Good for drunks, also good for sober people. You pull them off balance, they don't just fall over while you hold them.

    Someone with decent martial arts knowledge is unlikely to be close enough for you to effect judo, and even if they were would immedatly attack vitals or prone areas and pain receptors in cq combat - how many throws or holds have you effected in this real time equivalent scenario - if its zero, id suggest all the 1000s of hours of mat time you and einheri have enjoyed stretching each others shirts is worth pretty much diddly squat.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvI5X0-nY1E

    Sure about that? I know you think MMA is for losers but that's clear proof that being the aggressor in clinch mode isn't that difficult. Once you have a hold of them you can go to work. Those guys in there have very strong striking and grappling ability and yet still get taken by judo guys. You talk about 'pain receptors' and 'prone areas' like they're some sort of magical button you can just hit to take out the other guy. They're useful in theory, no real proof that they work irl. You tried to link us to a video of wing tsun or something a while back and it was a fake video, just shows that wing tsun, kung fu etc. are all just theory based, no real substance.

    And no, I've never been in a 'real life scenario' because I avoid fights. You can go 'ha, so you don't know then' all you like, I'm not going to be the douchebag that gets into fights. That said, plenty of anecdotes of people who have used it in self-defence, such as einheri's robber's arm being damaged.

    Originally they were, they later became soldier training and mercenary training, bodyguards etc where weapons werent alwasys accessable or permitted. in each case they were based on a sicence of the best way to combat any adversary faster, stronger, heavier etc by applying intelligence to a fight. judo (in your example) strikes off the intelligence factor.
    No no, you don't understand. Wrestling, boxing etc. weren't created for the small man to neutralise size differences. Not all martial arts are the oriental kind.

    Perhaps the only accurate comment you have ever made - so in reality it cant be safe to practice judo if this happens out in the real world either, can it.
    Is this a serious comment? In COMPETITION against other TRAINED fighters it's dangerous because they can offer perform counters and land on you or simply overpower you and damage a smaller frame with far great strength. Against UNTRAINED fighters the probability of this happening is far far smaller. Unless you think that a martial art has to have a 100% success rate for it to be legitimate.

    A lot of things are claimed, do you beleive and then try and pass off everything that is claimed and has little or no evidence?
    Well you seem to have been doing it for the past few weeks.

    No, try reading what i actually posted from the start. As i said its a pointless excercise me trying to clarify the finer points of muay thai combat to a lay person over the internet that doesnt have the capacity to learn in the first place. I think judo is the best match for you, all things considered, so im not going to bother labouring this particular point.
    Read: Crap, I don't know what to say.

    Of course.
    Yay, acknowledgement of ignorance.

    I dont think you fully understand what a thai clinch is.
    ...

    I DO muay thai. You do wing tsun, kung fu etc. and you're telling me that I don't know what a thai clinch is *facepalm*. What next, I don't know what a punch is? I don't know what judo is? (oh wait, already got past that, I thought it was a stand up martial art but clearly it's ground based!)

    Yes, of course, you did know ALL about muay boran and 9 point striking there can be no doubt, but for some reason failed to mention either when taking about muay thai sparring and leaving yourself open to getting struck by your opponents head. to educate you just a little, the head butt with the forehead, striking upward with the top of the head, even the rear of the skull, where the bone is most dense, these are all uses in valid muay techniques. Of course you knew all abot them but just held back till i mentioned them all first.
    Because they hadn't come up yet...? You claim someone can attack with their head. I assume (rightfully) that a simple head-butt wouldn't be able to take out a thai fighter and you then claim that it's not a head-butt (and then go on later to refer to it as a head-butt) and that the person we're now fighting does have martial arts experience, in which case, THEY ARE A TRAINED OPPONENT. Why shouldn't they win a fight if they're trained? It'd be like an amateur kickboxer fighting a pro-boxer and then blaming it on the style when he/she lost. Muay boran is a legitimate style, as is the head attack, I don't know why you're trying to make out that I don't believe this. You've completely shifted your position from 'semi-pro rugby player' to legit thai fighter. Ridiculous.

    You know as much about striking as donkey with no legs.
    This isn't an argument. You do realise that you're the one losing an argument when you start throwing around pathetic insults for no reason. You're not actually saying anything, just putting your hands on your ears and screaming "I'm not listening!" at everything we're telling you.

    wing tsun is perfectly effective in practice of self defence when trained properly, judo is useful against drunks and cuddle-friendly assailants. If anyone is giving people false and contrived info from a basic wiki and youtube knowledge , its kiddies like you.
    Yeah, proof? You go on about how I have no knowledge but you can't provide any whatsoever.


    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    None of which is unique to or originated from judo - i have never set foot in a judo school and yet know how to do all of the above, so what was your point exactly?

    :rolleyes:

    From whatever i have seen of judo competiton, including fairly high level competion, guys throwing other guys on to the floor is all well and good as a sport, but most of them still end up on the floor too and in many cases are smashing their own head, knee, hip even back ino the ground at the same time or soon after the throw - so what is the point of the throw in the first place? In a sports envirnoment on mats its passable, on a hard surface you are as liklely to injure yourself as the other guy. Stupidity?
    Having sat through your comical clip of a a small guy and a hugely out of shape fat guy in his pyjamas leaning on each other in what resembled sumo wrestling, i noted the same thing, both were ending up on the floor ontop of each other at various stages until the fat guy seemd to have lost his breath and the ability to even stand up - you say these are black belts ? lol
    Kano recognised his version of judo was not for the purpose of outdoor self defence, he intended it for a purpose of a wrestling style competion on mats, which is why he did take imspiration from Sumo and europena wrestling for his system. In additon the actively tried to marketing it to the west and america in the knowledge that japanese ju jistu practioners wouldnt want to teach westerners the complete jitsu combat systems. Ithink you need to stop trying to kid yourself.
    'Sacrifice' throws exist due to higher standard of competition and so more difficult, complex and dangerous throws need to be used. In a real life fight against an untrained opponent such throws wouldn't be necessary... simple throws and trips that won't put the judo fighter on the ground as well are very possible.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    None of which is unique to or originated from judo - i have never set foot in a judo school and yet know how to do all of the above, so what was your point exactly?

    :rolleyes:
    When was I debating that only Judo has chokes and jointlocks? Nice strawman there.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    From whatever i have seen of judo competiton, including fairly high level competion, guys throwing other guys on to the floor is all well and good as a sport, but most of them still end up on the floor too and in many cases are smashing their own head, knee, hip even back ino the ground at the same time or soon after the throw - so what is the point of the throw in the first place? In a sports envirnoment on mats its passable, on a hard surface you are as liklely to injure yourself as the other guy. Stupidity?
    Everyone fighting in the Olympics will be in the top 0.0001% of Judo practitioners in the world. Super high-level guy vs super high-level guy means they end up negating eachothers Judo a lot of the time and even throws that score ippon are more often than not partially reversed or countered by the other guy - but believe that if any of those throws landed on, for example, concrete the guy on the bottom would not be having such a fun time. Again, you demonstrate that you have no clue about Judo.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Having sat through your comical clip of a a small guy and a hugely out of shape fat guy in his pyjamas leaning on each other in what resembled sumo wrestling, i noted the same thing, both were ending up on the floor ontop of each other at various stages until the fat guy seemd to have lost his breath and the ability to even stand up - you say these are black belts ? lol
    Haha, you clearly have no idea who Kron Gracie is. And Karim Byron is a former Absolute Division champion. Either way, either of those guys would quite literally be able to rape you. And the same thing stands as what I said earlier - super high-level guys negate eachother and at the highest levels you often see stalemates. I showed you this fight because you said that weight classes in competitions are there because small guys can't beat bigger guys with grappling - this is a particularly extreme example with a 200lb weight difference.

    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Kano recognised his version of judo was not for the purpose of outdoor self defence, he intended it for a purpose of a wrestling style competion on mats, which is why he did take imspiration from Sumo and europena wrestling for his system. In additon the actively tried to marketing it to the west and america in the knowledge that japanese ju jistu practioners wouldnt want to teach westerners the complete jitsu combat systems. Ithink you need to stop trying to kid yourself.
    Orly? :rolleyes:

    "Judo is the study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself." - Kano Jigoro

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