[NuckingFut]

(Original post by mariachi)
or work at reform/liberalisation of the existing religion

which is exactly what some Muslims are doing

A minority.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by NuckingFut)
A minority.

Islam started off as a minority didnt it? There are still no fully sharia implemented islamic countries even after 1400 years. Clealry islam is (slowly) being adjusted to suit modern concerns, not word for word what was written in the quran 1400 years ago.

[beepbeeprichie]

www.thereligionofpeace.org

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by Chloe xxx)
Sorry my bad, I thought you were another muslim refuting the source for no good reason

Haha that's ok but yeah don't use wikiislam, islamwatch or even wikipedia to show something- they don't tend to accept it!

(Original post by mariachi)
the main point is this :

the Quran uses a poetical language, not a scientific language

any statement in the Quran which may seem "scientifically inaccurate" can easily be justified as being an allegory, or a subjective opinion, or a poetical hyperbole etc

for the same reason, it is stupid to try and find any "scientific miracle" in the Quran, when it could just as well be simply an allegory, a subjective opinion etc etc

Exactly. The Qur'an is all down to interpretation anyways, seeing as some words have ten meanings.

The numerology argument is just downright ridiculous though.

[abzy1234]

Islam can grow and adapt to modern times, with a good sense of traditionalism still intact. Many of my close friends are practicing Muslims, but I don't find them in any way "less liberal" or "out of touch with reality".

How about we become more accepting, and more welcome to other ideas? Perhaps then we can become truly liberal.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Ayshizzle)
Haha that's ok but yeah don't use wikiislam, islamwatch or even wikipedia to show something- they don't tend to accept it!

there has been a massive effort made at a rigourously orthodox presentation of Islam on wikipedia

Basically, whatever is included in the "Islam portal" is very much "Islamised" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

The numerology argument is just downright ridiculous though.

the numerology argument is quite old in Islamic traditions (very much tied to Jewish Kabbalah), but in modern times it is mainly tied to the figure and career of Rashad Khalifa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa

he was the first to use computers in order to find repetitions, concordances etc in the Quran

an exemplary career, I must say (he was murdered in 1990)

[amerzeb]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i think the assertion that the quran is an accurate book of science and the origin of those sciences, needs to proved, not the other way around. Please show some verses from the quran which is proven scientific fact, and that the quran was the origin of that science.

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

But this isnt the main reason the quran was revealed. it isnt a book of science.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by amerzeb)
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

But this isnt the main reason the quran was revealed. it isnt a book of science.

as you know most of that websites content is complete rubbish,. The few parts that show accurate scientific knowledge didnt originate with the writing of the quran - they were known many hundred so years before islam - so that kind of disproves that assertion immediately that the quran has the answers- of pre-islamic religions provide those answers.

[mariachi]

(Original post by amerzeb)
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

that site is a total joke

it presents as a "scientific miracle" e.g. the fact that the Quran mentions "animals living in communities". Because, of course, no one had ever observed ants or bees or wolves or birds etc before the 7th century....

qualifying that site as moronic is an euphemism

[mariachi]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
as you know most of that websites content is complete rubbish,. .

the author of that site : http://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/yazarHakkinda

[Reform]

This thread is still running?

Why would a Muslim, who believes Islam to be a revelation from Allah to the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) decide to reform the religion?

It makes no sense at all. If you're a Muslim, you believe in the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Some people may claim to be Quranist / Shia / Sufi etc but that's a different argument for a different time. As I was saying, to attempt a reform to the religion is deviancy and if you're a Muslim, you'll know it'll lead you to the hell fire.

Do you honestly believe a Muslim would sabotage his chance to enter paradise to please others? I guess you do.

Bi'dah (Innovation) in Islam is not taken lightly.

Do we Muslims want liberation? No.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Reform)
This thread is still running?

Why would a Muslim, who believes Islam to be a revelation from Allah to the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) decide to reform the religion?

It makes no sense at all. If you're a Muslim, you believe in the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Some people may claim to be Quranist / Shia / Sufi etc but that's a different argument for a different time. As I was saying, to attempt a reform to the religion is deviancy and if you're a Muslim, you'll know it'll lead you to the hell fire.

Do you honestly believe a Muslim would sabotage his chance to enter paradise to please others? I guess you do.

Bi'dah (Innovation) in Islam is not taken lightly.

Do we Muslims want liberation? No.

people (men) are reforming islam on a daily basis- think about it who is it that has told you drinking coffee is halal but taking extacy tablets is not
the degree and speed of reforming is another matter, i would have thought you would recognise that given your choice of username

Some muslims do want change if not 'liberation' do they not?

[Reform]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
people (men) are reforming islam on a daily basis- think about it who is it that has told you drinking coffee is halal but taking extacy tablets is not
the degree and speed of reforming is another matter, i would have thought you would recognise that given your choice of username

Some muslims do want change if not 'liberation' do they not?

To be honest, I wasn't actually thinking of liberation in that way. Sure Fatwa's can be made to address issues that didn't occur during the time of the Prophet. The OP may have been referring to this but I doubt it. In terms of worship however, no reform can take place. It's as simple as that.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Reform)
To be honest, I wasn't actually thinking of liberation in that way. Sure Fatwa's can be made to address issues that didn't occur during the time of the Prophet. The OP may have been referring to this but I doubt it. In terms of worship however, no reform can take place. It's as simple as that.

there was a debate many months ago about how a malaysian - the first muslim astonaught , was supossed to face mecca in space - muslims scholars made edicts that he could make some gneral effort to point himslef in the general direction - showing that islamic rules for worship are altered based on some bearded fellows opinon too. islam is practice in numerous countires round the world, and never in an identical way in each - so clearly muslims change the rules of islam to the most convienient to themselves (as long as it is affirmed by their specific 'islamic cleric') Thats why some muslims buy houses with islamic mortgages, even though the quran forbade the moneylending and finance industry to muslims.
and as you know evet different sect of muslims have their own interpretation of what is islam. and throughout its history islamic leaders have applied their own reforms. What you practice today is not what mohammed practiced 1400 years ago

[mariachi]

(Original post by Reform)
This thread is still running?

yes, thanks to you, in particular

(Original post by Reform)
Why would a Muslim, who believes Islam to be a revelation from Allah to the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) decide to reform the religion?

because the "orthodox Islam" of today is mostly an interpretation developed between 700 and 1000 CE

times have changed, and an "Islam for our time" is vastly overdue

(Original post by Reform)
It makes no sense at all. If you're a Muslim, you believe in the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Some people may claim to be Quranist / Shia / Sufi etc but that's a different argument for a different time. As I was saying, to attempt a reform to the religion is deviancy and if you're a Muslim, you'll know it'll lead you to the hell fire.

this is what traditional "orthodoxy" says. Since reform would put out of power (and out of a job) a vast amount of sheyks, imams, conference stars, telepreachers etc don't expect them to be in favour of reform

(Original post by Reform)
Do you honestly believe a Muslim would sabotage his chance to enter paradise to please others? I guess you do.

if and when Muslims will develop a reformed Islam it will be because they believe it is better for them, not in order to please others

in fact, as I have shown, attempts in this direction already exist (and have in fact existed for centuries). It is just a matter of seeing if they will gain speed and wider support (as I hope they will, for your own good)

(Original post by Reform)
Do we Muslims want liberation? No.

you can speak for yourself, not for "Muslims"

many Muslims would welcome a "liberalized", or "modernized", or "reformed" Islam (however you may wish to call it)

[mariachi]

(Original post by Reform)
no reform can take place. It's as simple as that.

this is what the Pope also used to say

[mariachi]

(Original post by naiadania)
Mariachi has also shown me the forcefulness with which he/she holds onto semantics, and his/her unwillingness to lay aside strict literal documents in favour of contextual reasoning, accusing that my saying "we Muslims are God's slaves" of being a violation of a UN Human Rights law forbidding slavery. Now, Mariachi asks that we Muslims abandon our clear laws and do just that. I will try to comment in detail on each of the "proposals" and why each one cannot be taken up by Muslims when I next have time.

yes, it may seem contradictory

on the one hand, when I see "stretched" interpretations of the Quran (such as all the "damage limitation" effort about 4:34 and the wife-beating) my instinct is to say "this is just waffling - the Quran clearly authorizes wife-beating"

on the other hand, I do appreciate efforts towards that same "damage limitation"

I think that what is needed is an "interpretation for our time". A contextualization.

As I said elsewhere, the Quran was "revealed" in a society where beating you wife was just plain common sense, having sex with slavegirls just the decent thing to do, executing war prisoners, marrying 6-year olds a very commonplace occurrence (as they have been for centuries)

Our societies are now vastly different : just think about the changes in the justice/penal system possible because now detention is a viable option (we have the economic means of maintaining it)

So, it not an easy territory, I agree : but this "contextualization" should be possible.

An interesting "modernist/feminist" view : "It Is the Right for Every Muslim to Interpret the Quran for Themselves", by Asma Barias http://en.qantara.de/It-Is-the-Right...657/index.html

of course "feminist" is taken as an insult in many Islamic circles, so Barias denies being a "feminist"

[mariachi]

(Original post by L'Impératrice)
These are difficult matters though. At present I find that Jewish and Christian intellectuals have struggled with these matters to some degree, but Muslims intellectuals have not. For example, there is now a lot of research into the textual history of the Koran, but none of it is being done by Muslims because it is a taboo subject to Muslims.

This is true. Most contemporary research on the textual history of the Quran (as far as I know) is the work of "Western" scholars. Have a look, e.g. at the effort by the Berlin University at the collection of early Quranic material http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Coranicum

To be fair, there are some interesting Muslim scholars also active in this area (like Azami http://rasheedgonzales.wordpress.com...-quranic-text/ , or Yasir Qadhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ammaar_Yasir_Qadhi etc, but they seem more concerned with attacking "Orientalists" rather than actually researching the Quran

Even more so the ahadith. The Koran is pretty solid, but the hadith literature is wide open to historical study but very little has been done. It is unavoidable in the long run.

again, the best contemporary research on ahadith seems to come from "Western" sources, like Herbert Berg http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Developm...3778984&sr=1-1

but these are just my impressions, and I am by no means a scholar