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Should same sex parenting be allowed?

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    Of course. I don't see how they can be any different to opposite parenting
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    The point about not having a parent of both genders is pretty confusing. What about single parents? Why is that any different? I just think I'd rather have parents that really wanted me than be stuck in care.
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    No, the kid will be embarrassed to death once he grows up
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    Science can also do plenty of other nasty things with genetics; just because we can does it mean we should?
    So a lesbian woman using a turkey baster to impregnate herself with sperm from her brother-in-law so the child is related to both parents is "nasty things with genetics"? And who decides what's "nasty"? The Pope? If we followed the medical prescriptions and proscriptions your crew advocate and have advocated the rhythm method would still be the best method of birth control and vaccines a contraband product.

    Organised religion has only ever sought to hold back humanity's technological, medical and social advance because they know the more we know about the world, the universe and ourselves, the more we understand how superfluous and even dangerous your delusions about you daddy in heaven are.

    An extraordinary and fundamental revolution is going to occur in the next 100 years in biotechnology, information technology and nanotechnology in which humans will be so different from the ways in which they exist today, in the ways that they see themselves, understand themselves and relate to each other that your obsessive, determinist arguments prescribing a particular gender ratio for couples with children will seem as obsolete as worshipping Ra does to us today.
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    (Original post by alithegreat)
    No, the kid will be embarrassed to death once he grows up
    Ye, or not.

    Any mildly intelligent, respectful and mature person would appreciate the parents they have and not care about what their gender is like the idiotic minority of this country do.
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    (Original post by Jackso)
    Doesn't matter whether or not it is a part of our identity; people adapt and evolve over time.
    And therein lies the problem; these people don't even believe in Darwinian evolution, let alone social evolution. If they had their way, we'd all be wearing hair shirts, living in caves, and dying at 30 from preventable diseases.

    They *never* concede to rationality until forced by popular opinion, at which time they revise their dogma and "discover" that the new dogma is actually what had believed all along (very much the declaratory theory of religion, for those law students out there)
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    (Original post by Boom Boom Pow)
    The point about not having a parent of both genders is pretty confusing. What about single parents?
    That's no problem for them; like "good AIDS" and "bad AIDS", you're only a "good" single mother if you're an unmarried widow.
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    (Original post by wildcolonialboy)
    So a lesbian woman using a turkey baster to impregnate herself with sperm from her brother-in-law so the child is related to both parents is "nasty things with genetics"? And who decides what's "nasty"? The Pope? If we followed the medical prescriptions and proscriptions your crew advocate and have advocated the rhythm method would still be the best method of birth control and vaccines a contraband product.

    Organised religion has only ever sought to hold back humanity's technological, medical and social advance because they know the more we know about the world, the universe and ourselves, the more we understand how superfluous and even dangerous your delusions about you daddy in heaven are.

    An extraordinary and fundamental revolution is going to occur in the next 100 years in biotechnology, information technology and nanotechnology in which humans will be so different from the ways in which they exist today, in the ways that they see themselves, understand themselves and relate to each other that your obsessive, determinist arguments prescribing a particular gender ratio for couples with children will seem as obsolete as worshipping Ra does to us today.
    Show me gay animals that have produced offspring? It's not natural otherwise gay couples would have the ability in general (not specific cases) to have children.

    I'll stand by my belief that the fact homosexuals can't give natural birth indicates they were never meant to be parents.

    And you didn't respond to the incest comment. Please explain why consenting adults can't have an incestuous relationship and bare children (after screening or even by adoption)? Have you arbitrarily drawn a line there? Is it unnatural? Is it disgusting? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Stevo112)
    ...
    I entirely agree.

    And I do concede at some level that there are some reasonable questions about how gay couples can model a stable gender identity for opposite sex offspring, and relations with the opposite sex when they have children of the same sex, but in reality nobody really knows whether this is an issue, and like all parents, we (I mean me and other gay men and woman; I do want to have children) will probably have to fumble through and do the best we can, and learn from our mistakes or the mistakes of others, just as all parents and humans have throughout history.

    Interestingly, I spoke to my Dad about being gay and having children just before I came to the UK last year (he's straight, obviously), and what it was like to have children, and he said no one is ever truly prepared for it the first-time around, and people do make mistakes, and often fumble through as best they can, but when it comes down to it, having children is when (no disrespect to those without children) you truly grow up and mature (or rather, it forces you to because suddenly there's this tiny, vulnerable lifeform that's totally dependent on you for everything, and is your future), that it's the most profound experience a person can have, and depriving yourself of that human experience, as well as your unborn children of life (I think the children of gay parents would prefer to be alive than non-existent) would be narrow, limiting and irrational.

    I really did take that to heart, and I know that while not being a perfect parent, like every other parent in the history of the human race I'll love my children more than anything, and that really is enough, in spite of any arcane arguments about proper gender ratios and so on.
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    Some things to consider...
    -no child raised by a gay couple is "accidental". Gay couples always have to make the active and conscious choice to have a child, not simply get pregnant by chance as often happens with heterosexual couples. This means that, if adopting, a gay couple will only be granted the adoption if they are seen to be appropriate, able to cater to the child's needs and in a good financial situation, in this respect (adoption), gay parenting is basically REGULATED. Either way, the conscious choice aspect for gay couples, and being within a relationship in which raising a child isn't an expectation, means that every child with gay parents was 100% wanted.
    -Studies recently showed that children raised by gay couples had grown to become particularly confident and happy adults, I imagine those studies will have already been posted here.
    -saying its wrong because the child may get bullied is utterly laughable. That's pandering to the bully. Shall we have race-segregated schools encase the white kids are racist towards a kid of another ethnicity? Of course we won't, instead, we should be teaching them that racism is wrong and opening them to the diversity of society.
    -I think if you want to criticise same-sex parenting, you need to criticise single parents first. I mean, you're all saying a child needs a male and female role model. Single parents also only provide one of these, and not only that, they only provide one parent as opposed to the two parents in a same-sex couple.
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    Show me gay animals that have produced offspring? It's not natural otherwise gay couples would have the ability in general (not specific cases) to have children.
    Do you completely ignore what natural actually means just for fun or what?
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    And you didn't respond to the incest comment. Please explain why consenting adults can't have an incestuous relationship and bare children (after screening or even by adoption)
    Cant have children for obvious reasons. Risks to the child.

    Cant adopt because the act itself is illegal. If incest was legal, it would be different. Its quite silly to suggest we can allow an 'illegal couple to adopt, given they then would be in the oen about their illegal act.

    Incest is much, much less relevant in nature thus is nowhere near natural in the same sense homosexuality is, if you wanted a reason they differ.
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    I'm just ashamed this question even had to be asked.

    Yes, of course it should be allowed. Don't be so stupid. The standard of care and living two people will provide to a child has absolutely nothing to do with the sex of either person. Perhaps if more people were raised by same sex couples then we wouldn't have as many narrow minded and ignorant people in the world.
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    (Original post by James0507)
    -I think if you want to criticise same-sex parenting, you need to criticise single parents first. I mean, you're all saying a child needs a male and female role model. Single parents also only provide one of these, and not only that, they only provide one parent as opposed to the two parents in a same-sex couple.
    Well said. I think the issue, despite all their protestations that it's "for the children", it seems clear that even if there were undeniable proof that gay parenting was the equal of straight parenting, they would make the argument that it's still inherently immoral.

    I'm sure they do see single-parents as immoral (except where widowed, like good AIDS and bad AIDS), but being gay is like single-parenting squared. Cannot compute doesn't begin to describe their lack of considered thought and rationality on the issue.

    I do think about issues that would be unique to being a gay parent; if we had a son, the likelihood is that he would be heterosexual. Are there things that I might not be able to tell him about women that heterosexual men would know and tell their sons? Perhaps, but I get the feeling that if we brought him up to respect people, to be a decent person, that he would not have issues relating to the opposite-sex.

    Likewise if we had a girl; I wouldn't really be able to do the girly type stuff that is mothers might pass on to their daughters, but similarly, if we taught her to be decent and respectful, to be her own person, to tell us what she wanted in that regard, would it really be that big of an issue?

    In the scheme of things, they're not, and I suspect the "absence of [insert gender] role model" is a minor issue easily remedied by other measures (having that gender family around a lot as well), and at worst a red herring. One way or the other, we're certainly going to find out.
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    (Original post by Zangoose)
    Right. I looked at a few references and traced the sources.

    • First source - very shallow indeed and there's no indication of an actual study or the methods used
    • Second source - no sign or details of a study either and there is mention of "methodological flaws" involved if such a study was to be undertaken
    • Third source - Lots of detail but still, even the relevant parts are ridden with theoretical statements and there is no actual study. It's just the mentioning of studies. Find me an actual study where they proved that same-sex parenting is as good as, if not, better than heterosexual parenting. Looks like mere heresay up to now.
    Here's a lil' task for you... Find me an actual study where they proved that same-sex parenting is worse than heterosexual parenting.

    (Original post by Zangoose)
    Fair enough. Which periods and societies in particular, were openly accepting of homosexuality? I'm ignorant of that and I could do with some awareness.
    Actually, there have been societies openly accepting of homosexuality. Two that should be easy to find an article is the ancient greeks and the Romans. Go google them. It was also common in ancient china. In fact, straight from the wikipedia:

    Homosexuality in China was traditionally widespread in the region[1] prior to the spread of Christian and Islamic values via Central Asia.
    source: Hinsch, Bret. (1990). Passions of the Cut Sleeve. University of California Press. p. 77-78.
    And in ancient africa:
    Though often ignored or suppressed by European explorers and colonialists, homosexual expression in native Africa was also present and took a variety of forms. Anthropologists Stephen Murray and Will Roscoe reported that women in Lesotho engaged in socially sanctioned "long term, erotic relationships" called motsoalle.
    source: Murray, Stephen (ed.); Roscoe, Will (ed.) (1998). Boy Wives and Female Husbands: Studies of African Homosexualities. New York: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 0312238290.
    Homosexuality also played a part in Melanesian culture until christianity taken over.

    I'm sure I could find more examples for you if I could be bothered. But yes, before christianity and islam, homosexuality was much more widespread. I guess it's thanks to the abrahamic religions that the majority of humanity have been conditioned into believing that homosexuality is abominable & taboo since all evidence of acceptance to homosexuality seems to have came to a halt since a couple of thousand years ago when the religion(s) first came about. Yet before that, there seems to have been quite a lot of societies accepting to it.
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    with regard to parenting, i see nothing wrong with it...

    with issues such as lack of role models due to lack of a farther or whatever, i call *******s to that...

    sex is irrelevant towards a person being a role model. on top of that, a role model doesnt necessarily have to be a family member, nor does one even need a role model. i was born within a normal straight family, there is no one i particularly consider to be role model worthy.... yet here i am, a ...relatively... normal person :ninja: (though, would have been nice if i did have one)

    -love
    -responsibilities
    -empathy/compassion/sympathy
    -morals
    -aspirations
    -time
    -social skills regarding friends/relationships/general rapport
    -etc
    these are the kinds of things i consider a good parent(s) to be able to pass down to their kid. sex of the parents is irrelevant when looking at these factors....

    on top of all this, no one can deny that there are utterly **** straight parents in the world who just manage to keep their kids without social worker intervention.... to the point where it would be a benefit to society if they didnt mate... if these people are allowed to raise kids why cant a gay couple. hell... what about single parents? until i see evidence that concludes that gay people are incapable (not inferior) of raising a kid or anything else that is valid, ill prob keep this view...
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    I Think it's not so straight forward as a yes or no answer.

    Personally I agree that same sex parents are better than no parents.
    Although If I was raised in that situation I would be fine mostly, just slightly uncomfortable with it.
    I think a mother figure is quite important, I was raised by a single mother and personally I would be stranded without a mother, they're provide a certain softness and emotional strength. It's quite hard to explain, It would be harder to live with two fathers than two mothers imo.

    And I would say that public scenes of affection are a bit uncomfortable no matter the sexes, but I would feel a little more uncomfortable with a same sex couple. (just in response to what some people said).
    I had experience with working with a Homosexual male for a few months, it was completely fine, he was a cool guy. It's just when he would sometimes talk about his love life where it got awkward, for me anyway. Going a bit off topic now anyway.
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    I am absolutely in favour of this. Far better for a child to be adopted into a loving, caring family, regardless of whether the parents are both male, both female or one of each or don't consider themselves to be any gender or whatever, than an abusive single parent, or abusive heterosexual parents.

    - Bullying - parents should teach their kids not to bully. It shouldn't be up to people to change their lifestyle for the sake of bullies, there needs to be more punishment for bullying instead. TBH I think most people who cite bullying as a reason for not allowing same sex parenting seem to be saying that they would bully the child of same-sex parents.
    - No father/mother figure - there are probably aunts/uncles/family friends who can help with this, and if not, as long as they raise the child to be happy and healthy, what's the problem?
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    Cant have children for obvious reasons. Risks to the child.

    Cant adopt because the act itself is illegal. If incest was legal, it would be different. Its quite silly to suggest we can allow an 'illegal couple to adopt, given they then would be in the oen about their illegal act.

    Incest is much, much less relevant in nature thus is nowhere near natural in the same sense homosexuality is, if you wanted a reason they differ.
    Gay parents are much less relevant in nature, as you put it. It's not natural. Just because homosexuality may occur in nature, how is that related to parenting?

    So would you support the right of an incestuous couple to be together and have kids and why not? Adoption is an option plus they can have any possible child screened before birth.

    Do you disagree because it's not natural?

    As I said before I disagree with gay parenting. Firstly, being homosexual involves two free consenting adults but now you're involving a third person (a child at that). And in my opinion that causes identity issues. And secondly an indicator that it's not natural is that gay people can't give birth. If they were meant to be parents, they'd function in this way. We're giving them a right that is special only to a heterosexual couple. Heterosexual couples can give birth (maybe not in specific cases) so allowing a sterile couple to have a child is a totally different matter. Having a single parent is a disadvantage but the child still knows they had a father-- it's in their identity.
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    (Original post by So Instinct)
    I Think it's not so straight forward as a yes or no answer.

    Personally I agree that same sex parents are better than no parents.
    Although If I was raised in that situation I would be fine mostly, just slightly uncomfortable with it.
    I think a mother figure is quite important, I was raised by a single mother and personally I would be stranded without a mother, they're provide a certain softness and emotional strength. It's quite hard to explain, It would be harder to live with two fathers than two mothers imo.

    And I would say that public scenes of affection are a bit uncomfortable no matter the sexes, but I would feel a little more uncomfortable with a same sex couple. (just in response to what some people said).
    I had experience with working with a Homosexual male for a few months, it was completely fine, he was a cool guy. It's just when he would sometimes talk about his love life where it got awkward, for me anyway. Going a bit off topic now anyway.
    You're saying that because you were brought up in a predominantly heterosexual household with presumably not much contact with gay people and we live in a society which can be pretty homophobic at times. Then you only had your mother around so of course you're going to be more inclined to think you'd be more comfortable being brought up in a heterosexual household with a mother.

    If you were brought up in a homosexual household with two men however, you'd have adapted to your environment (like all kids do) and probably see it as completely normal. For example, I grew up as an only child. I often wondered how my friends coped having siblings. I never really understood how my friends were so fine with sharing their room and having to 'fight' for their parents attention because that wasn't normal for me but had I grown up with siblings then I'd guess I would have adapted to being used to siblings. Same as when my friends ask me, 'how could you grow up with no one at home to play with?' It was fine because it was normal for me and my parents looked after me well.

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