China Triumph and Turmoil? **** off

MrFlash1994

Has anyone else been following Niall Ferguson's three part series on China? I've just finished watching it and as a British Chinese I feel incredibly angry and insulted at his completely biased account of China. What does everyone else think about it? Summary at the End

Firstly the entire tone of the programs has been sinister. He seeks to portray China as an "Evil Empire" that constantly seeks to impose itself on other nations. He has absolutely nothing positive to say about China or its people. He travelled around the country being sarcastic, arrogant, and condescending to everyone he met, twisting their words to support his ridiculous arguments. One example of his **** was lasts weeks program when he was talking about China's addiction to neon lights, and he shot immdiadely from scenes of Shanghi, to the government building in Beijing hundreds of miles away. He then goes on to say "This is the only building without neon lights" or somthing similar. What an absolute dick. Who does he think he's fooling? Thats like comparing Blackpool pleasure beach to Westminster!

He equates today's Chinese government with that of the first emperor over 2000 years ago, really? China at that time was a divided country run by warlords, maybe his turmoil BS would stand up then but not now. He presents China as a country riddled with political protests and suppression of human rights. Of course these problems exist, but not on the same scale as he makes out. A lot of people in China have been lifted from absolute poverty, but it's not perfect, no country is. And as for human rights, I don't think I need to list the human rights abuses going on in a country like the USA. He says things like "China has no desire for western style democracy", well why on earth should they? It doesn't even work here so how would it work in a country with a completely different strucure, people, and tradition. British democracy has taken centuries to develop, and it is far from perfect. I think modern China isn't doing too badly for 70 odd years of existance.They instead should seek to is impliment democratic reforms, this is precisely what the Chinese government is doing. Such as reforms to the death penalty ect.

His depiction of Mao was one of the most disgusting. He constantly refers to him as a tyrant and a mass murderer, likening him to Hitler and Stalin. Mao made huge mistakes that had grave consequences, but his achievments far outweigh the negatives. And Ferguson implies that Mao actively set out, on his own, to murder his own people. So if that's true, why does everyone in China love him? Some of Hitler's policies actually benefited poor Germans, but he isn't celebrated for it is he? And there is no mention of any of the things Mao's wife or the Gang of Four did. It's all Mao's fault! The reason virtually all Chinese love Mao is because everything we see in China now, was made possible by him.

His overiding point was that the Chinese civilization is on the brink of collapse or "turmoil", and that they are constantly trying to avoid it. Well he's wrong, but what country wouldn't resist that anyway? Oh but because the "communist state" did it it's a problem! He criticises China's communism, its capitalism, and its nationalism. I sense that Ferguson is aching for turmoil in China, he wants China to collapse. But for what reason, I don't know, and don't really care either! China isn't going anywhere but up, but please people don't fear them! All the trade that China is doing across the world is above board and mutually beneficial. I think we all should be far more fearful of America's presence in the world.

Please don't let this man's poison fool you. Please feel free to criticise China if you want, but at least do it objectively, taking into consideration all points of view.

Thank you for reading if you did!

SUMMARY: Niall Ferguson is a right wing Neo-colonial dickhead who hates Chinese Civilization and wants to influence us to think like him. Don't listen to him.

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Reply 1

Pitt1988

Cold war remnants, can't big up a Communist economy / nation. People will realise it works and down comes capitalism.

Reply 2

MrFlash1994

Original post by Pitt1988

Cold war remnants, can't big up a Communist economy / nation. People will realise it works and down comes capitalism.

Yea exactly, I mean I would like the west's capitalism to recover and boom again cos I live here lol, but some people need to realise it isn't always a choice between Communism and Capitalism. China is a good example of a mixed economy.

Reply 3

jaxxa

Drama queen.

I didn't see the documentary, but lol @ u for defending Mao.

Reply 4

Dux_Helvetica

I have not seen Ferguson's latest show. But I recall his book and its television adaptation of 'Civilisation' painted China in quite a positive light by showing how it was enlightened and developed when Europe was a filthy backwater.

The reason for the resurgence in popularity of Mao is that now most young people were not alive during the atrocities that were committed under his rule (not necessarily by his hand) in the middle of the 20th century. It's like how the French were quick to start re-admiring Napoleon 30 years after his death with the election of his nephew, in spite of all those who perished as part of his programme of conscription.

Mao did not oversee the reforms that made China what it is today; Deng Xiaoping did. It is he who should be cherished and revered more by the sea of humanity that is China.

Reply 5

FrogInABog

Original post by MrFlash1994

His depiction of Mao was one of the most disgusting. He constantly refers to him as a tyrant and a mass murderer, likening him to Hitler and Stalin. Mao made huge mistakes that had grave consequences, but his achievments far outweigh the negatives. And Ferguson implies that Mao actively set out, on his own, to murder his own people. So if that's true, why does everyone in China love him? Some of Hitler's policies actually benefited poor Germans, but he isn't celebrated for it is he? And there is no mention of any of the things Mao's wife or the Gang of Four did. It's all Mao's fault! The reason virtually all Chinese love Mao is because everything we see in China now, was made possible by him.

SUMMARY: Niall Ferguson is a right wing Neo-colonial dickhead who hates Chinese Civilization and wants to influence us to think like him. Don't listen to him.

Hehem... May I just point out that deaths in Mao's China are commonly put at around the same - or in some cases higher - than those of Stalin or Hitler. I'm afraid that the deaths of upwards of 40,000,000 innocent civilians could never be justified, even if it led to something great. Whatever Mao's intentions, he allowed the Chinese state to fall to such a level that its people were dying in their thousands EVERY DAY. As for why people love him, it was the same with Stalin and many dictatorial communist leaders, they build up a personality cult that becomes so engrained, that it is accepted and embraced by later generations. Indoctrination is surprisingly easy under regimes like that.

You could argue that Stalin made Russia great. He certainly made it powerful, and astonishingly so, considering where it came from. Mao did a similar thing, and as such, China is today very rich and powerful. But both did so at a cost that could never be justified. Human rights abuses in China are still some of the worst in the world, and millions live in dire poverty. China's success has been astonishing, but it is built on shaky foundations. Russia was built similarly, and at the end of the Cold War, it completely collapsed.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 6

MrFlash1994

Original post by FrogInABog

I'm not trying to justify the deaths and perhaps it was wrong of me to say the positives outweigh the negatives. But bear in mind that alot of what was going on in China during this time was not brought to the attention of Mao. He would have been completely unaware of the crimes commited by the Red Guards for example.Yes almost all of the plans which turned to failures were his idea, but he was not the only one responsible. There came a point where Mao played more of a figurehead role in China, with his wife actually pulling more strings in the Communist party, she was later imprisoned.

Russia and China do bear some similarities, but Russia's strength was one sided, China is deffinately a more stable country in comparison.

What Mao was trying to do in China was somthing the world had never seen before, he had nothing to base the new China on, rebuilding a country is difficult you know, and thats not a euphemism for the deaths.

As for indocrination, I do agree actually. But my mum for example grew up during the cultural revolution, she and her mother had to eat in communal canteens, they knew the hardships of China, but when they look back they see the progress that was made and are proud of it.

Reply 7

User257034

I found the series rather interesting.

Reply 8

MrFlash1994

Original post by Dux_Helvetica

Well Ferguson is only really admitting whats true, it still does not overide the amount of contempt he has for China.

I've replied to another post about love of Mao.

And Deng Xiaoping is also loved and admired by China, but obviously not to the same extent as Mao. What Deng did was open China up to foreign trade, and began to reverse some of Mao's policies.

Reply 9

MrFlash1994

Original post by jaxxa

Drama queen.

I didn't see the documentary, but lol @ u for defending Mao.

Go on, what do you know about Mao?

Reply 10

jaxxa

Original post by MrFlash1994

Go on, what do you know about Mao?

I'm not a Mao expert, but I do know tens of millions of Chinese people died as a result of his policies.

Feel free to tell about the good things he's done, but if you're going to talk about one of the greatest mass murderers in history in a positive light, then please excuse the rest of us for being weary.

Reply 11

Mcnubn

I haven't seen the 3 part yet, but it did strike me that he was being incredibly negative. None of the information was new to me, but the way he brought the points across was somewhat darker then I had expected. I don't know whats better though, people thinking China is about to collapse, or thinking that its going to aggressively take over the world -.- seems theres no other alternative as far as western media are concerned.

As for the Mao thing, aye he ****ed up bad, very bad, but to put him at blame for all those deaths is pretty far fetched. Great leap forward was the big mess up on Mao's part, however local officials were constantly messing with the numbers so the severity of food shortages wasn't known until the bodies were counted (even then I doubt those numbers reached Beijing). The cultural revolution is a somewhat more complicated matter -.- Definitely shouldn't be praised and adored (I really believe Deng should be the idol if anyone) but is definitely not on the level of Hitler etc.

Reply 12

roadlesstravelled

the last episode was funny. the chinese are still blissfully politically incorrect when it comes to race relations.

ferguson asked a chinese boss-- who owns a factory on behalf of the chinese state in africa -- who were better workers. chinese or africans?

of course the chinese boss said the chinese were better workers. ferguson asked why? the chinese boss said because of nature. lol

not because of socioeconomic conditioning or any western style other mumbo jumbo just straight to the point.

i admire the chinese. they are a nationalistic people untroubled by the bizarre self hating pathologies of the west.

Reply 13

roadlesstravelled

Original post by MrFlash1994

Go on, what do you know about Mao?

he murdered 60 million chinese.

Reply 14

smileatyourself

Throughout the three programmes, Ferguson constantly mentions that China airbrushed its history.

He does not mention the Opium Wars where the British shipped vast quantities of Opium into China in order to get them addicted, leading to the Unequal Treaties.

Do any historians on these forums know how Hong Kong came about to be a British colony?

Neither was there talk of the Eight Nation Alliance. Eight countries, Britain, US, Austria - Hungary, German, France, Russia and Japan collectively invaded China. How else did the French Concession come about in Shanghai?

When he talked about foreign occupation in the second programme, the screen conveniently shows a picture of Shanghai with a Japanese flag!

Read the info below for an account of the pints I've made and judge for yourselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_nanking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance

Reply 15

skay

Original post by MrFlash1994

And Ferguson implies that Mao actively set out, on his own, to murder his own people. So if that's true, why does everyone in China love him?

Same reason why the Germans loved Hitler (in 1939-45), cult of personality. However, unlike in Germany, widespread cultural hegemony still exists in China - Chinese figureheads maintain the illusion that Mao was a hero. Do you think Chinese children are taught the full picture of Mao's "heroic" deeds? No. They are fed lies and propoganda, just as you would have seen in Nazi Germany.

~ 70 million Chinese men, women and children were killed during the Mao era. If you think this man deserves to be loved, you are seriously deluded.

Edit: Beaten to the punch by FrogInABog, great post sir.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 16

skay

Original post by MrFlash1994

But bear in mind that alot of what was going on in China during this time was not brought to the attention of Mao. He would have been completely unaware of the crimes commited by the Red Guards for example.

That's the equivalent of saying Hitler was unaware of the Holocaust.

Reply 17

User257034

Original post by roadlesstravelled

That is why I can't wait to be back there. None of the liberal equal crap you get here. Just straight to the point.

Reply 18

mirin?

Niall Ferguson is known as a rampant neo colonialist who likes the idea of the western countries taking over the rest. He is so obviously racist but for some reason God gave him the gift of intelligence.

Reply 19

smileatyourself

The Opium Wars, also known as the Anglo-Chinese Wars, divided into the First Opium War from 1839 to 1842 and the Second Opium War from 1856 to 1860, were the climax of disputes over trade and diplomatic relations between China under the Qing Dynasty and the British Empire.

After the inauguration of the Canton System in 1756, which restricted trade to one port and did not allow foreign entrance to China, the British East India Company faced a trade imbalance in favour of China and invested heavily in opium production to redress the balance.

British and United States merchants brought opium from the British East India Company's factories in Patna and Benares, in the Bengal Presidency of British India, to the coast of China, where they sold it to Chinese smugglers who distributed the drug in defiance of Chinese laws. Aware both of the drain of silver and the growing numbers of addicts, the Daoguang Emperor demanded action. Officials at the court, who advocated legalization of the trade in order to tax it were defeated by those who advocated suppression.

In 1838, the Emperor sent Lin Zexu to Guangzhou where he quickly arrested Chinese opium dealers and summarily demanded that foreign firms turn over their stocks. When they refused, Lin stopped trade altogether and placed the foreign residents under virtual siege, eventually forcing the merchants to surrender their opium to be destroyed.

In response, the British government sent expeditionary forces from India which ravaged the Chinese coast and dictated the terms of settlement. The Treaty of Nanking not only opened the way for further opium trade, but ceded territory including Hong Kong, unilaterally fixed Chinese tariffs at a low rate, granted extraterritorial rights to foreigners in China which were not offered to Chinese abroad, a most favored nation clause, as well as diplomatic representation. When the court still refused to accept foreign ambassadors and obstructed the trade clauses of the treaties, disputes over the treatment of British merchants in Chinese ports and on the seas led to the Second Opium War and the Treaty of Tientsin.

These treaties, soon followed by similar arrangements with the United States and France, later became known as the Unequal Treaties and the Opium Wars as the start of China's "Century of humiliation."