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China Triumph and Turmoil? **** off

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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I'm not mad but I think Mao was. Based on ideology he tore apart a system that was working, in favour of one that killed millions. He could have tested it on a small scale instead of being arrogant enough to roll it out across the entire country as he did.

    If nationalists had won they'd still be under the thumb of nationalists? Yeah a bit like India? lol... The best place to live in China, where the most wealth is, is Hong Kong. Somewhere we ruled til the 90s, that still has a relatively large amount of autonomy from the Chinese state.

    As for China being free from imperialism don't make me laugh. Ever heard of Tibet? The Chinese are also quite possible the most racist and elitist race on the planet today... It's just a good job there aren't a lot of Jews in China for them to destroy. Have you seen how Chinese people react when say a black and a chinese person mix?
    What system are you talking about, I genuinely don't know so tell me please.
    Hong Kong Chinese have an inherent sense of superiority towards mainland Chinese because of British colonialism. Now there is absolutely no disputing this. My dad lived there he can tell you. In a way the British transfered their class system there. British at the top, Hong Kong bellow, and everyone else at the bottom. This would not exist If it weren't for the British. Tibet is considered a part of China due to some marriage but I'm not sure of the details. And there are abuses going on in Tibet, but It is nothing in comparison to Europe's conquests. And I was refering to China freeing itself from the hands of colonialism (European).

    As for racism in China, you obviously haven't been there and so don't know. My dad is half black half Chinese as well, and he certainly feels more welcome and accepted in China than he does in Britain.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    yeh ive got a big one thanks. whats that got to do with anything
    Care to share it? Or back up your statements against Mao? Otherwise I'll just assume your reasoning behind them is quite poor and not worth sharing at all.

    I just honestly want to know why you think it.
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    Care to share it? Or back up your statements against Mao? Otherwise I'll just assume your reasoning behind them is quite poor and not worth sharing at all.

    I just honestly want to know why you think it.

    I queried your assertion that Mao was a good man. Id be interested to hear your reasoning as to why you think he wasnt a mass-murdering nutcase.
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    What system are you talking about, I genuinely don't know so tell me please.
    Hong Kong Chinese have an inherent sense of superiority towards mainland Chinese because of British colonialism. Now there is absolutely no disputing this. My dad lived there he can tell you. In a way the British transfered their class system there. British at the top, Hong Kong bellow, and everyone else at the bottom. This would not exist If it weren't for the British. Tibet is considered a part of China due to some marriage but I'm not sure of the details. And there are abuses going on in Tibet, but It is nothing in comparison to Europe's conquests. And I was refering to China freeing itself from the hands of colonialism (European).

    As for racism in China, you obviously haven't been there and so don't know. My dad is half black half Chinese as well, and he certainly feels more welcome and accepted in China than he does in Britain.
    I am talking about Maos collectivisation of farm land, that resulted in famine. Mao himself acknowledged that he might have to sacrifice half the population for his ideals. He knew what he was doing...

    Tibet is colonised by China, and I think you will find it's citizens are treated worse than Europeans treated the Chinease. Thousands of Han Chinese have been imported to dilute the native population. Protestors are arrested and killed, and f religion is minimal (as in the whole of China). I don't see what the superioritiy complex of those living in HK has to do with anything? HK is still better than most of China, which leads me to believe the whole of China would have done better under us than Mao, or even themselves for that matter. And I find it more than a little stupid when I hear Chinese people blatheabout the opium wars over 150 years ago, when China and the Chinese have never really understood the concept of a human life having value when it is them doing the killing. it just makes them seem brainwashed.

    Racism is a very big deal in China, and it isn't even frowned upon. Look at this example:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/exp...-in-China.html

    And here is an article:
    http://www.thechinaexpat.com/racism-in-china/

    There has also always been classism in China, the British didn't it (for them any way).
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    What have I proven him right about? I'm British aren't I? I personally think that Ferguson is the paronoid one, could you not tell that the entire series was scaremongering? China according to him will either take over the world, or collapse, both having a catastrophic affect on us. And an example of his sarcasm was when he talked to a man about a photo where he was standing with Mao, we all know what he thinks of Mao by now, and he says things like "What a lovely photograph". If he despises Mao, why on earth does say things like this? If he doesn't want to offend the man then he shouldn't express him opinion to him! I understand of course If you don't see things in the same way as I do, but like you said other less educated people will swallow what he says about China and take it as fact. Theres already a huge amount of anti-China coverage in the media. And at no point did I say he shouldn't make the programme, I'm just saying I don't agree with him, or like him!

    As for being a historian, he doesn't seem to take into consideration enough evidence in his argument. I don't believe there was much mention of the impact that European colonialism had on China, and its people. These events still have an impact on China's psyche today.

    And btw the Chinese government has representatives from all regions of China, but I've heard that they aren't very effective anyway! And that's why Mandarin was cultivated as the standard language, to help unify the country, a similar thing happened in Italy I believe.

    And what an earth would turning to patriotism achieve for the government? All it is, is an admiration of China as a country. It can't be utilized in anyway apart from creating a massive army, but that's not what China does. It stays out of foreign military affairs like Libya and Iraq.

    We all by reading Ferguson's books and watching his shows can learn somthing. He is a very intelligent man, but unfortunately he presents his own personal opinion of China side by side with factual evidence as if they were equivalent.
    'Scaremonging' makes it seem like he's making statements without sufficient evidence to back them up, but I don't think thats the case. If you look at history, every major power eventually callopses one way or another, and not in a pretty way either. What makes you think that China is immune from this? and tell me, when a country becomes ever more powerful, what do you think is the likelihood that it won't seek to 'expand' into other areas?

    As for his sarcasm, well okay I'll give you that, he obviously wasn't being literal with what he's said, but honestly its no big deal. I see it all the time on television and life in general, people say things they don't genuinely believe for all sorts of reasons - saying something to prevent an awkward silence, I've lost count how many times I've done that myself. I really don't get where you're coming from with accusation that he's asserting his superiority over the Chinese through these apparent sarcastic and condescending remarks. I think he behaved reasonably respectful with people he interviewed, even dining with them while doing so.

    Overall he probably does gives a somewhat less than rosy picture of China's present and future, but if what he's pointed out is fair and true (which I think you have to accept by and large), why are you so angry? Does the truth offend you? If the true nature is weighed more towards the negative, then I have no problem with this being presented.

    Can you tell me why he needs to bring in European colonalism? I'm not an expert on this, but I do know that Hong Kong was colonised by Britain, I'm not aware of any other colonalism. Hong Kong was handed back very peacefully and successfully as well, What effect of colonalism on Chinese psyche do you speak of?

    As for your question on what patriotism can acheive for a government, well again look at history: Germany, Japan, America, former USSR....I could on. You can't seriously tell me that patriotism has not had a major effect on each of those country's recent history. Take Japan, if their people weren't so stubbornly patriotic and had such a huge sense of superiority over foriegners, it could never have been capable of invading large parts of Asia nor would they have had the audacity to attack America during WW2. And I think you're quite naive in effective saying that China is not interested at all in any foreign military actions. Maybe not now while militarily they're still dwarfed by America and their allies, but I wouldn't be so sure they'll resist military action in the future if a) they're capable of it, and b) their interests are at stake.

    Finally just out of curiousity, putting aside any bias, does it not creep you (even slightly) to see hundreds/thousands of people travelling long distances from the countryside just to see their flag raised at 6 in the morning?
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    Have no problem with China having a communist authoritarian regime. If it's delivering for the majority of the Chinese people, what's the problem? It's hard to argue with the results - China's poverty has dropped dramatically, while it's physical infrastructure has developed tremendously.

    However, Chinese have to be cautious and not be arrogant too soon. Japan, South Korea, Asian tigers, etc all went through the same blistering growth and development that China did...and then fell into an economic quagmire, mainly due to the economic development system (high export/low wages/high investment/low consumption) they used....the same one China is using. Still, while China's growth in the future will not be as high as it has been, it will still grow and will likely become a superpower.

    Some criticism of China is warranted. They way they've been acting is quite in some areas is downright pathetic. Tibet's just one issue. Tibetans do NOT WANT TO BE A PART OF CHINA. It's very simple. China invaded and annexed Tibet. Whether it was historically a part of China before then is irrelevant. By that reasoning India could annex everything from Afghanistan to Burma. Italy could annex huge parts of Europe, etc. The bottom line is Tibetans don't want to be a part of China. What the West has done in the past is irrelevant to that issue. Secondly China's bullying in Asia is beginning to grate on it's neighbours. It claims the Sprately Islands and whole of the South China Sea for itself with no consideration to it's numerous neighbours in the region. It even claims a sliver of North-Eastern Indian territory, which in the last 10 years it has suddenly decided is an integral part of China, even though it never mentioned it before 2000.

    It's essentially amount to China stomping around like a little kid screaming ''Mine! Mine! Mine!'' and using the ''Hundred years of humiliation'' as an excuse to act like a douchebag. Newsflash China, you weren't the only people in the world who were exploited and humiliated. Time to get over it.

    I don't agree with some of the 'China Doom' opinions out there, but once thing about China is clear. They can give it out, but they can't take it.
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    Yea exactly, I mean I would like the west's capitalism to recover and boom again cos I live here lol, but some people need to realise it isn't always a choice between Communism and Capitalism. China is a good example of a mixed economy.
    The ****?

    China is one of the worse human rights abusers, one of the biggest poverty problems, one of the biggest polluters and one of the biggest fake merchants bunch of thiefs in history.

    There was a reason why ghengis Khan didn't like them and they're still bossing people around.
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    (Original post by roadlesstravelled)
    he murdered 60 million chinese.
    No he didn't. The system which he headed caused the deaths of those people. That's not to say he wasn't incredibly callous about much of it, but let's keep the facts straight if we're going to get anything fruitful from the debate.
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    This is The Peak, the most expensive place in Hong Kong:

    http://tourism-hongkong.com/images/peak1.jpg

    Did you know when the British nicked it from China, they reserved the area for themselves. No Chinese were allowed to live on The Peak?

    Sounds racist to me.
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    Care to share it? Or back up your statements against Mao? Otherwise I'll just assume your reasoning behind them is quite poor and not worth sharing at all.

    I just honestly want to know why you think it.

    Mao might have ben the most repugnant bastard to have ever lived:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/09/op...rsky_ed3_.html

    Hitler and Stalin both did good things, as well as massive amounts of horrible stuff, but we are happy to admit they we'ree disgusting human beingd the world would have been better off without...
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    Mao was ****e. I would assume Deng Xiaopeng wasn't mentioned as he pretty much made China the Superpower it is today, he wasn't was he?

    Ferguson left his wife and kids and is a general a-hole.
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    (Original post by HARRY PUTAH)
    The ****?

    China is one of the worse human rights abusers, one of the biggest poverty problems, one of the biggest polluters and one of the biggest fake merchants bunch of thiefs in history.

    There was a reason why ghengis Khan didn't like them and they're still bossing people around.
    What you on about Ghengis Khan didn't like them? He and the mongolians tried to take over China! But they realised in the end that all they had was military might and China had far more advanced science and education.

    And I'm not gonna bother debating on which country is the worst this or that
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    (Original post by smileatyourself)
    This is The Peak, the most expensive place in Hong Kong:

    http://tourism-hongkong.com/images/peak1.jpg

    Did you know when the British nicked it from China, they reserved the area for themselves. No Chinese were allowed to live on The Peak?

    Sounds racist to me.
    Why is it that foreigners, or foreigner appologists, always try and validate everything they are trying to defend by saying that my great great great grandad lived in a time when we did those things? Anyone would think all the other countries on earth had clean hands.
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    (Original post by SEHughes)
    No he didn't. The system which he headed caused the deaths of those people. That's not to say he wasn't incredibly callous about much of it, but let's keep the facts straight if we're going to get anything fruitful from the debate.

    ok, 60 million died because mao and his regime.

    thats a pretty big 'holocaust'
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    Are you trying to say Mao wasn't a tyrant?

    I laugh at the whole thing about "capitalism economy, communist government"

    Firstly that's impossible.

    Secondly, they don't have capitalism in the western sense, we don't even really have it, its state capitalism and cronyism to the max, at the cost of freedom. And their government is a single party militant, nationalist kind of flawed inter-democracy and dictatorship.
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    (Original post by roadlesstravelled)
    ok, 60 million died because mao and his regime.

    thats a pretty big 'holocaust'
    I wouldn't call it a holocaust because it wasn't an attempt to kill all the people in China. Again, no one's pretending it wasn't serious loss of life, but be wary of throwing around such charged words - we want an dispassionate discussion right?
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    (Original post by internet tough guy)
    'Scaremonging' makes it seem like he's making statements without sufficient evidence to back them up, but I don't think thats the case. If you look at history, every major power eventually callopses one way or another, and not in a pretty way either. What makes you think that China is immune from this? and tell me, when a country becomes ever more powerful, what do you think is the likelihood that it won't seek to 'expand' into other areas?

    As for his sarcasm, well okay I'll give you that, he obviously wasn't being literal with what he's said, but honestly its no big deal. I see it all the time on television and life in general, people say things they don't genuinely believe for all sorts of reasons - saying something to prevent an awkward silence, I've lost count how many times I've done that myself. I really don't get where you're coming from with accusation that he's asserting his superiority over the Chinese through these apparent sarcastic and condescending remarks. I think he behaved reasonably respectful with people he interviewed, even dining with them while doing so.

    Overall he probably does gives a somewhat less than rosy picture of China's present and future, but if what he's pointed out is fair and true (which I think you have to accept by and large), why are you so angry? Does the truth offend you? If the true nature is weighed more towards the negative, then I have no problem with this being presented.

    Can you tell me why he needs to bring in European colonalism? I'm not an expert on this, but I do know that Hong Kong was colonised by Britain, I'm not aware of any other colonalism. Hong Kong was handed back very peacefully and successfully as well, What effect of colonalism on Chinese psyche do you speak of?

    As for your question on what patriotism can acheive for a government, well again look at history: Germany, Japan, America, former USSR....I could on. You can't seriously tell me that patriotism has not had a major effect on each of those country's recent history. Take Japan, if their people weren't so stubbornly patriotic and had such a huge sense of superiority over foriegners, it could never have been capable of invading large parts of Asia nor would they have had the audacity to attack America during WW2. And I think you're quite naive in effective saying that China is not interested at all in any foreign military actions. Maybe not now while militarily they're still dwarfed by America and their allies, but I wouldn't be so sure they'll resist military action in the future if a) they're capable of it, and b) their interests are at stake.

    Finally just out of curiousity, putting aside any bias, does it not creep you (even slightly) to see hundreds/thousands of people travelling long distances from the countryside just to see their flag raised at 6 in the morning?
    Yea I probably should have made a disclaimer saying that China is by no means immune from collapse, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. They are already taking steps to reduce growth to a more stable level I think. The only thing China needs is natural resources, which they are acquiring through trade. I don't think that they will go out to seek new lands as In general, the days of colonialism are over. And China actually had the opportunity to collonise or attempt to collonise the world when it was at the height of its power. Theres a book called 1421 which is written by a British naval officer about how China circumnavigated the globe and discovered alot of new land. I haven't read all of it but it states that the sailors were given specific orders to treat the natives well. So I suppose If the Chinese had any imperialistic desire in them, then it would have happened then. But ofc these are different times.

    I'm angry because it adds to the negative picture of China that many people in the west have. Theres still a cold war mentality present as mentioned by someone else above.

    There were many attrocities commited by European settlers in the mainland, Hong Kong at this time was a small fishing port. Boxer rebellion, opium wars, ransacking of the forbidden city. I also forgot to mention Japan's imperialism which was just as bad, rape of nanking, ect. The Chinese people haven't and shouldn't forget about these attrocities, not to hold them against the respective perpetrators, but to understand that China has done incredibly well to rise from all of this. And Hong Kong was given back peacefully but taken by force, and with an unequal treaty.

    I agreed that If China wanted it could massively increase it's army. But the nationalistic sentiments have no other use that I know of. I don't think that China will pursue an agressive military stance, yes they are very capable but as long as they aren't attacked directly I don't think we should fear it. They're only interested in their own economic growth lol.
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    (Original post by Pitt1988)
    Cold war remnants, can't big up a Communist economy / nation. People will realise it works and down comes capitalism.
    China isn't communist. It is just as capitalist as the west (arguably more so).
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Why is it that foreigners, or foreigner appologists, always try and validate everything they are trying to defend by saying that my great great great grandad lived in a time when we did those things? Anyone would think all the other countries on earth had clean hands.
    Well I love how you seem to deffend the British Empire by suggesting they ran the countries they colonised better, as If humanity didn't exist before the British...

    And Chinese civilization btw is one of the worlds oldest, continuing civilizations. Never has China been completely invaded or ruled. I think they'll be fine mate
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    His Chinese accent is worse than mine xP

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