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China Triumph and Turmoil? **** off

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    (Original post by internet tough guy)
    But Niall Ferguson' has given credit where its due, he mentions about 3 times how 'unprecedented' China's rise is in little more than 60 years or so. What more do you want? Honestly, I'm starting to think that you're just clutching at straws here, this documentary really isn't as bad as you make it out to be, in all our discussion, you've provided just one example of Ferguson's apparent disrespectful behavior and even that wasn't that anywhere near to being insulting/offensive.

    Have you ever thought that the reason why China's picture is negative in the west (as you see it), is not because of bias against China, but simply because we in the west cannot comprehend how it can ever be justified to have a set of unelected people dictate what the rest of population does. I mean, don't you personally think that this is inherently unfair and that democracy, freedom of expression and free press is the way to go instead of the current system of China (which quite frankly is outdated)?

    Personally I don't even think China is viewed that badly here in the west, honestly I just think its to do with different political systems, the lack of freedom in China just annoys people here a bit. Look at Japan, a non-western country, it gets viewed in more of less the same way here as other western countries.

    oh and, you haven't answered my last question about whether you think those 1000s of people waking up at 5am just to see the flag being raised is creepy
    I believe he is more or less forced to say that as It's undeniable really. It pains him to do so though! I'd have to watch it again so see. Ok maybe I'm being slightly OTT but I was watching with my dad who was screaming at the telly lol.

    The more educated people might have criticisms of the Chinese government but many others such as my college mates literally just say, "human rights", "communism", and don't back it up. Ferguson's account I honestly think won't make this any better. Perhaps the excessively large government needs a reform of structure but they'll work on it. The nationalisation of major industries is probably just to make sure they work well enough or somthing. And I don't think China needs western democracy, it's only a concept.

    Ah but Japan still has US troops staioned there

    And yea thats ****ed up
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I believe he has covered these issues before though. He does afterall own a company called Chimerica. The whole point of this show was to highlight how the Chinese propaganada machine works, and how despite outward appearances the Chinese single party system will never relinquish control in even the smallest of ways or be transparent in any way. I don't feel he passes negative judgement on this model though, in fact he seemed quite impressed to me.
    Maybe has he, maybe not.

    Certainly China's problems have been brought to the surface on more than one occasion but there's no stopping yet another programme being made on the subject.

    Does GCSE or A-Level history cover in depth the atrocities suffered by the Chinese at the hands of the British towards the end of the 19th Century?

    Also, what excuse is there to use the C-word, in the first programme?

    I think even Channel 4 should be partly held responsible for allowing it to air.
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    (Original post by smileatyourself)
    Eight countries collectively invaded China ..... and it survived.

    What would happen to Britain if the same happened?

    A quote from "A Fish Called Wanda", If it hadn't been for the American's intervention, Britain would be speaking German!
    That's bull****. It was the Russians that won the war.
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    (Original post by TCD23)
    Mao was ****e. I would assume Deng Xiaopeng wasn't mentioned as he pretty much made China the Superpower it is today, he wasn't was he?

    Ferguson left his wife and kids and is a general a-hole.
    errrr i'm pretty sure that deng xiaopeng was mentioned, ferguson's point was that mao screwed china over, and then deng came to the rescue by liberating the markets to capitalism, etc.
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    (Original post by smileatyourself)
    Eight countries collectively invaded China ..... and it survived.

    What would happen to Britain if the same happened?

    A quote from "A Fish Called Wanda", If it hadn't been for the American's intervention, Britain would be speaking German!
    Sorry but that's one of my biggest annoyances.

    In reality, Germany were unable to defeat our superior navy and thus supported the Blitz in an attempt at submissions. However, Hitler was very unwise with his micromanagement and in reality, the Nazi's were on the brink of total economic collapse unless they managed to continue their campaign of conquest. As such, this is where Hitler made his error, deciding to take on the USSR. This resulted in seventy five percent of Nazi casualties. Although America played a part, the main reason they can be considered successful is by stopping the USSR from expanding to France as they steamrolled over the Nazi's.

    So know you know that if it wasn't for the USSR, we would all be speaking German. And knowing is half the battle.
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    First paragraph, fair enough.

    Yes the Chinese by nature are hardworking, I actually wish I had a propper Chinese work ethic for revision! But China has a culture of inovation and science. The list of Chinese inventions goes on forever. A pretty big one actually is MATHS. Well the number 0 which opens up a whole new level of Maths apparently! Not forgetting the Arab development of it too.

    And I do agree that China is decadent. They have a taste for some of the most tasteless western consumer products. In some ways they actually take it too far. And China doesn't try any justify anything, they don't need to. And we always must at least try to learn from history. Well I really hope China won't have to prove itself to anyone, and who is the other btw, Is it Britain? America? Israel???
    0 and the modern numeric system, as well as fundamental mathematics was developed by Indians and Arabs, which is where Europeans got it from.

    China's list of PAST inventions and contributions is indeed impressive, and I would never attempt to challenge this. But as I previously mentioned, history, the present, and the future are very different things. One cannot go through life constantly bragging about past accomplishments, and neither can a nation. What is invented in the present and future is more important to the standard of living for today's citizens.

    Many nations will not challenge China as they have no fundamental reason to do so. But it's ascension will put it on a collision course with the US, without a doubt. America will not give up its premier position easily. And despite all the rhetoric of co-existence/co-operation, it probably already has plans to challenge China. For example, why is the US 're-focusing' on Asia with China as it's No.1 threat? Why the marines in Australia? Why is it constantly trying to court India?

    Interestingly, China does itself no favors. In many ways it is exhibiting aggressive, expansionist behavior. China is a huge country, why so demanding over territorial disputes? Can it really afford to tick off its neighbours if it wants the security to continue its development?

    No nation's rise or prosperity is assured (Japan? Soviet Union?) and China faces more challenges than opportunities in the future. It's not that it cannot overcome them, it just that it's not guaranteed to either.
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    (Original post by Yawn!)
    0 and the modern numeric system, as well as fundamental mathematics was developed by Indians and Arabs, which is where Europeans got it from.
    Actually an awful lot was done by Persians...for some reason Arabs take credit for this.
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    (Original post by smileatyourself)
    Eight countries collectively invaded China ..... and it survived.

    What would happen to Britain if the same happened?

    A quote from "A Fish Called Wanda", If it hadn't been for the American's intervention, Britain would be speaking German!

    The American's deliberately waited until near the end of the war to a) undermine the european empires, b) see who would win, and c) come in and graglory at minimum cost. Britain was never really a land army nation, I know that. The seas were our thing...
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    (Original post by MrFlash1994)
    I believe he is more or less forced to say that as It's undeniable really. It pains him to do so though! I'd have to watch it again so see. Ok maybe I'm being slightly OTT but I was watching with my dad who was screaming at the telly lol.

    The more educated people might have criticisms of the Chinese government but many others such as my college mates literally just say, "human rights", "communism", and don't back it up. Ferguson's account I honestly think won't make this any better. Perhaps the excessively large government needs a reform of structure but they'll work on it. The nationalisation of major industries is probably just to make sure they work well enough or somthing. And I don't think China needs western democracy, it's only a concept.

    Ah but Japan still has US troops staioned there

    And yea thats ****ed up
    Let me get this straight, so you're saying that China is better off having a bunch of unelected officials who feel they have some sort of devine right to dictate what the rest of the population does, instead of 'western demoracy' in which power is given to the people and there is freedom of expression?

    and why do you keep diverting away from the issue, what has japan and US troops got to do with this discussion. I think what you've said already has proven that you've let your own preconceived notions of Niall Ferguson and bias towards China get the better of your judgement on this documentary.
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    (Original post by Ferdowsi)
    Actually an awful lot was done by Persians...for some reason Arabs take credit for this.
    Yeah, no you're right.

    This is going to sound awful, but I sometimes tend to mistake Arabs and Persians as same people, but they're not. My bad.
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    Having a one party state might not necessarily be a bad thing.

    In the UK, despite the fact there are three main independent parties, it appears there's only one, say Tory and the other is Anti-Tory!

    Whatever one party decides, the other seems to oppose it, just for argument sake.

    Take education for example. Which Tory idiot thought O-Levels and CSEs needed changing and brought in GCSE?

    Come Labour, linear exams weren't good so let's start a modular pass-as-you-go-and-collect-£200 system?

    A new incoming government will always make sweeping changes, without much thought on the merits of the existing system.

    Please excuse my analogy but what do you think is better: a person who has only school of thought (one party policy) or someone who is bi-polar (many opposing parties)?
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    (Original post by smileatyourself)
    Maybe has he, maybe not.

    Certainly China's problems have been brought to the surface on more than one occasion but there's no stopping yet another programme being made on the subject.

    Does GCSE or A-Level history cover in depth the atrocities suffered by the Chinese at the hands of the British towards the end of the 19th Century?

    Also, what excuse is there to use the C-word, in the first programme?

    I think even Channel 4 should be partly held responsible for allowing it to air.

    If you do those modules I presume it covers these things. What are you talking about c-word in the first episode sorry?
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    you prove his point that chinese are arrogant
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    of course little one. keep going. Im sure everyone is amazed by your economic forecasting abilities too.

    It's not my economic forecasting skills derpina, it's the forecasting skills of dozens of economists merged together by the economist in an issue a few months ago. By all means keep up with the illusory superiroirty, it is transparent to everyone watching that you are an over emotional tard who is no better than the muslims he tries to argue with on a daily basis.
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    (Original post by TCD23)
    Sorry but that's one of my biggest annoyances.

    In reality, Germany were unable to defeat our superior navy and thus supported the Blitz in an attempt at submissions. However, Hitler was very unwise with his micromanagement and in reality, the Nazi's were on the brink of total economic collapse unless they managed to continue their campaign of conquest. As such, this is where Hitler made his error, deciding to take on the USSR. This resulted in seventy five percent of Nazi casualties. Although America played a part, the main reason they can be considered successful is by stopping the USSR from expanding to France as they steamrolled over the Nazi's.

    So know you know that if it wasn't for the USSR, we would all be speaking German. And knowing is half the battle.
    It was partly an American funded film so no surprises to hear them blowing their own trumpet.
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    (Original post by lucas13)
    you prove his point that chinese are arrogant
    :thumbsup:
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    (Original post by Ferdowsi)
    Actually what the West needs to learn is how to copy Chinese political efficiency in a democratic manner. China actually manages to get a lot done, compared to America, which seems to be in permanent political gridlock and to be quite honest, the American people often elect the most moronic idiots into power anyway. Liberal Democracy has it's failings, as does the Chinese system.
    I can see the benefits of totalitarianism. That's why I like our parliament, which effecives totalitarian power to one party we choose for 5 years. I like the idea that with one party they look to the distant future and not just reelection. However, using America to highlight problems in democracy is faulty because America sold it's democracy to corporations a long time ago. I still place more value on greater freedom than I do on economic success. Economic success should buy more and more freedom.

    That's just my feelings on the issue though.
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    (Original post by internet tough guy)
    Let me get this straight, so you're saying that China is better off having a bunch of unelected officials who feel they have some sort of devine right to dictate what the rest of the population does, instead of 'western demoracy' in which power is given to the people and there is freedom of expression?

    and why do you keep diverting away from the issue, what has japan and US troops got to do with this discussion. I think what you've said already has proven that you've let your own preconceived notions of Niall Ferguson and bias towards China get the better of your judgement on this documentary.
    China is not the UK, or the USA, or any other western country for that matter. The Chinese system has elements of Communism, Capitalism, Democracy, and Autocracy too. It will take time to develop this into a well rounded system of government, but they ARE working on it! May I remind you that China has only existed for about 70 years, give it a break already! Lets talk about British democracy shall we? A party is in power, that didn't win the election, implimenting policies that were not in their manifesto, and ignoring the opinions of the public. Ah democracy, how liberating. It more than wouldn't work, it's completely incompatable.

    I was saying that Japan is no longer presented badly by the west as it is considered a conquered nation. The US has lots of influence in Japan still.
    And what so, he is completely impartial in his review of China? You respect his opinions, I respect yours, why don't you respect mine?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    It's not my economic forecasting skills derpina, it's the forecasting skills of dozens of economists merged together by the economist in an issue a few months ago. By all means keep up with the illusory superiroirty, it is transparent to everyone watching that you are an over emotional tard who is no better than the muslims he tries to argue with on a daily basis.
    Classy of you, you dumb-ass retard.

    Links to economic reports please? I'll bet I read far more than you do and I have never read a single one that definitively states India's economic growth is finished. Of course you would read one report on India's current challenges (even though ALL nations are currently facing challenges) and wrongly take it as a decisive report of India's future.

    The overwhelming majority of economic reports point out that no nation (even China) has the growth potential that India does in the next 20-30 years. Get over it. The West is close to recession. China is growing at 9%, India is growing at 7%....doesn't seem like they're doing too badly to me.

    You can stick with your ignorant 'Slumdog Millionaire' mentality towards India, no problem at all. To be honest, I don't think Indians place much value on your opinion of them or India. But don't start throwing out statements on here, like you're an intelligent, educated expert on the subject of India because you've read ONE article. You're not. Your posts only expose you for the unintelligent crap-slag you are. Go ahead and reply, I look forward to making you look even stupider. HAHAHA! Suck it!
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    Anyway moving on.....China.......yeah......... Western depictions.......NIALL FERGUSON!!!!

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