[High VOLTAGE]

(Original post by missygeorgia)
Well, I'm not Muslim, so obviously I don't believe that there is essential truth in the Qu'ran, or in Islam in general. It's fine that you do, but if the only way you can argue about Islam is from the assumption that it's the ultimate truth then the argument looks pretty weak and will hold little weight to non-Muslims. And considering most criticism about Islam's treatment of women presumably comes from non-muslims, debating with them from the perspecitive of 'Islam is right' is pretty redundant.

Well no actually, i know Muslims who were not raised Muslims and they converted to Islam. And they way we give dawah (spreading the message) of course we have to say Islam is the ultimate truth as that is what be believe so when someone asks about Islam, that is the message we convey.

[missygeorgia]

(Original post by High VOLTAGE)
Well no actually, i know Muslims who were not raised Muslims and they converted to Islam.

...yeah?

(Original post by High VOLTAGE)
And they way we give dawah (spreading the message) of course we have to say Islam is the ultimate truth as that is what be believe so when someone asks about Islam, that is the message we convey.

Sure. But if you can't defend your religion against accusations of misogyny without the assumption that it's the true religion, then there's no way of engaging in debates such as this with non-muslims. This isn't the place for 'spreading the message', the point of this thread is to discuss between both muslims and non-muslims whether Islam is restrictive towards women, and if you want to engage in debate with non-muslims you have to put your belief in the pure truth of Islam to one side- that isn't going to convince anyone.

[High VOLTAGE]

(Original post by missygeorgia)
...yeah?



Sure. But if you can't defend your religion against accusations of misogyny without the assumption that it's the true religion, then there's no way of engaging in debates such as this with non-muslims. This isn't the place for 'spreading the message', the point of this thread is to discuss between both muslims and non-muslims whether Islam is restrictive towards women, and if you want to engage in debate with non-muslims you have to put your belief in the pure truth of Islam to one side- that isn't going to convince anyone.

Erm how do i put my belief in Islam being the true religion aside? And no i don't believe it is against women. I in fact feel that tv and culture in my home country is more misogynistic.

[missygeorgia]

(Original post by High VOLTAGE)
Erm how do i put my belief in Islam being the true religion aside?

By not bringing it into an argument with a non-muslim as some sort of proof.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by Vintage <3)
Oh my. Please do not tell me how I am feeling myself.... Unbelievable. Also I said 'I MYSELF' not every woman.

It's a known phenomenon in "neurotheology", if you want to call it that- when dealing with religious belief, for some reason your brain shuts down a certain suspension of disbelief function. It's really weird, and I'm not sure if it's evolutionarily viable, but that's what happens.

[big-bang-theory]

(Original post by High VOLTAGE)
Erm how do i put my belief in Islam being the true religion aside? And no i don't believe it is against women. I in fact feel that tv and culture in my home country is more misogynistic.

Okay so here's the issue she's trying to raise with you. An accusation against Islam (not factually but its place in culture) is that it is inherently misogynistic compared to standard Western values. This is embodied by the fact that there are widespread large Islamic communities that use the religion to legitimise it.

That the community of Muslims you know and happen to support as having the legitimate interpretation of Islam is immaterial to this accusation and claiming they're wrong doesn't mean they don't use Islam (rightly or wrongly) to justify their position.

In any case, I still think Islam necessitates a disconnect between men and women's different "roles" in society in which women necessarily ought to play the second and man ought to play the provider (see my first post in this thread). I regard this an inherently sexist (restrictive if you prefer in keeping with the way this thread is framed) ideal. There is certainly enough in the Koran to make this view seem legitimate whether specifying that women ought to have certain rights or not. Indeed the hadith you cited actually is contingent upon that view in which the believer is assumed male and in control of the women. Just because you aren't beating them and banning them from ever leaving the house doesn't mean you don't have a misogynistic second/first place relationship.

[Ray.benj]

Why would anyone think that whatever form of religion would restrict women? On the contrary, I think that Islam gives them freedom. They're treated equally in every aspect.. Hijab is not a restriction in any possible way, we have the CHOICE whether to wear it or not. Though it's a must but I'm not obliged to wear it unless I'm fully prepared. We (as in women) do not act differently than any other religion.. and whoever said that we're not capablel of independent thinking knows nothing about Islam!

[Notethis]

(Original post by Luxray)
Correct me if I am wrong but in Islam a female muslim cannot marry a christian or jew but a male muslim can marry a christian or jew.
Why is this so? surely that shows some restriction?

Because the father decides the religion of the the children. It's an insidiously effective ploy.

[FrigidSymphony]

I'm going to guess that when Muslim women say they are "liberated", they're settling for a lot less than what they should be.

[BrainsandBrawn]

(Original post by Luxray)
Correct me if I am wrong but in Islam a female muslim cannot marry a christian or jew but a male muslim can marry a christian or jew.
Why is this so? surely that shows some restriction?

There is a reason for that, generally you if a female marries a Christian the children will be Christian. However things have changes and people have become a little open minded about this in the fact the if they love one another conversion does occur as lately my maths teacher converted to marry a Muslim woman.

[I found a penny!]

In my exerience it has been restrictive, but it does vary a lot. Lots of different Muslims means lots of different ways that people follow Islam. Then there are the different cultures and that plays a big part too.