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Education petition

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    This petition would:

    1) Amend the Independent Education Scholarship Voucher Bill 2012 part 3.2.1 to "This is only available to students whose household income is £50,000 or less"

    [http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...php?t=1949050]


    2) Amends the Compulsory Subjects Bill to allow schools to make English compulsory at post-16 if the school has a sizeable proportion of non-English pupils

    [http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...php?t=1393234]

    3) Authorises a maximum of 100 state schools to become free selective schools, provided that:
    a) A majority of parents in the local area agree with the decision
    and
    b) There is adequate educational provision in the local area for pupils who fail to get into the new grammar school
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    We are in the middle of the Election process and I am not sure this can go through
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    Welcome to the House!

    (Original post by stanlas)
    1) Amend the Independent Education Scholarship Voucher Bill 2012 part 3.2.1 to "This is only available to students whose household income is £50,000 or less"
    It should be much less than that in my opinion. Setting it at around the average household income would be the most acceptable way to slightly fix a policy that is fundamentally bad.

    2) Amends the Compulsory Subjects Bill to allow schools to make English compulsory at post-16 if the school has a sizeable proportion of non-English pupils
    Agreed.
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    Some sort of reasoning might've been nice.

    Point 2 seems completely pointless seeing as English isn't really about teaching you the language especially at post 16. That is unless you mean English as a foreign language.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    We are in the middle of the Election process and I am not sure this can go through
    I not sure myself as I'm completely new to these forums, but from what I read the election is almost over, as according to (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1946785) the actual voting procedure will have been finished in two days time (and this petiton should be voted on in 4 days time). However, I may well be mistaken

    (Original post by cambo211)
    Some sort of reasoning might've been nice.

    Point 2 seems completely pointless seeing as English isn't really about teaching you the language especially at post 16. That is unless you mean English as a foreign language.

    I excluded reasoning from the original post as I though that I was only meant to write what the petition would do, and that arguing about it would happen later.
    My arguments are simply:
    1) The Voucher Bill was a good idea in principal by allowing poorer pupils to attend private schools, but the £80,000 threshold is still above average household income in the UK, meaning that this measure can be used by better off parents as well as by disadvantaged ones

    2) While I admit that I'm not fully familiar with the contents of the English A level course (not English literature by the way- I meant English Language) I'm certain that studying the subject would help foreign pupils who can't communicate efficiently in English (and I am not saying that all foreign pupils should be forced to continue English; only those who still have an inadequate understanding of the language)

    3) The arguments for grammar schools are probably well know by now (I've seen a couple of threads of this), so I will simply summarise by saying that they increase social mobility by allowing poorer students to attend good schools
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    Apparently OP has quoted me in here according to my widget.

    Can anyone else see where?
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    (Original post by cambo211)
    Apparently OP has quoted me in here according to my widget.

    Can anyone else see where?
    He's quoted me aswell but I cannot find the post
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    (Original post by cambo211)
    Apparently OP has quoted me in here according to my widget.

    Can anyone else see where?
    (Original post by Morgsie)
    He's quoted me aswell but I cannot find the post
    The post should be viewable now. As the OP is a new member and his post contained a link, it was automatically flagged for moderator approval before it could be displayed.
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    I’m afraid that I had some difficulties in posting, as I made my post over an hour ago and it still hasn’t appeared (actually, it appeared briefly about 20 minutes ago but then disappeared again).

    Just in case we never see it again, I have rewritten it (but without links this time):

    1) To Morgsie
    I’m not sure myself as I’m new to these forums, but I read that the voting procedures will be over in two days time (and so this petition can be voted on in two days time). Though I may be mistaken.

    2) To cambo211

    I excluded justification from my original post as I thought that I was only meant to include the details of what the petition would do, and that arguing about it would happen later.

    My reasons are simply:
    1) I believe that the Vouchers motion was a good idea as it allows poorer pupils to benefit from private education, but the £80,000 threshold is still significantly above average household income. A reduction in the threshold wouldn’t affect poorer parents while also preventing better off parents from benefiting

    2) I want to clarify that I meant English Language A level (not literature), and I believe that studying that A level could help foreign students whose English is inadequate for whatever reason.

    3) The main advantage of grammar schools is that they can encourage social mobility by allowing disadvantaged but intelligent pupils to go to good schools, instead of having to pay (even with the Vouchers Bill, parents would still need to pay at least part of the costs of private school)
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    I not sure myself as I'm completely new to these forums, but from what I read the election is almost over, as according to (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1946785) the actual voting procedure will have been finished in two days time (and this petiton should be voted on in 4 days time). However, I may well be mistaken




    I excluded reasoning from the original post as I though that I was only meant to write what the petition would do, and that arguing about it would happen later.
    My arguments are simply:
    1) The Voucher Bill was a good idea in principal by allowing poorer pupils to attend private schools, but the £80,000 threshold is still above average household income in the UK, meaning that this measure can be used by better off parents as well as by disadvantaged ones

    2) While I admit that I'm not fully familiar with the contents of the English A level course (not English literature by the way- I meant English Language) I'm certain that studying the subject would help foreign pupils who can't communicate efficiently in English (and I am not saying that all foreign pupils should be forced to continue English; only those who still have an inadequate understanding of the language)

    3) The arguments for grammar schools are probably well know by now (I've seen a couple of threads of this), so I will simply summarise by saying that they increase social mobility by allowing poorer students to attend good schools
    English language A-level would be next to impossible for people who can't communicate effectively in English. It's a very common misconception on TSR though that English Language A-level is simply learning the language.
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    (Original post by TheCrackInTime)
    The post should be viewable now. As the OP is a new member and his post contained a link, it was automatically flagged for moderator approval before it could be displayed.
    Thanks for working your magic.

    To the OP,
    I know your a newbie and welcome to the MHOC. MPs are to be decided and that may take a while.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    To the OP,
    I know your a newbie and welcome to the MHOC.
    Thanks. Hopefully I can learn from my mistakes (and hopefully you won't have to wait another hour to read this post)
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    (Original post by cambo211)
    English language A-level would be next to impossible for people who can't communicate effectively in English. It's a very common misconception on TSR though that English Language A-level is simply learning the language.
    I was basing this part of the petition on the AQA English Langauge A Level. I fully agree, that this won't allow people to learn the language (I'm using learn in the sense of learning a completely new language). However, if the pupils in question are continuing school post-16, then we must assume that they already know some English, though they probably continue to make numerous errors; I still believe that English A level would benefit them, as they can practice their writting skills.
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    I was basing this part of the petition on the AQA English Langauge A Level. I fully agree, that this won't allow people to learn the language (I'm using learn in the sense of learning a completely new language). However, if the pupils in question are continuing school post-16, then we must assume that they already know some English, though they probably continue to make numerous errors; I still believe that English A level would benefit them, as they can practice their writting skills.
    But they can practise their writing skills in any subject, you write in every subject not just English. Have you done the English Language A-level by any chance?

    Given that students are now required to stay in some form of education or training until they're 18, the idea of making any subject compulsory post-16 seems even more ridiculous.
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    (Original post by cambo211)
    But they can practise their writing skills in any subject, you write in every subject not just English.
    True, but English A level:

    a) Is an essay subject (while all subjects require the student to write in English, some subjects like maths do not require a lot of writing in English)

    b) English A level has specific marks awarded for grammar/language (i.e. the "communicate relevant knowledge using appropriate terminology and coherent, accurate written expression" in the mark scheme- this is present in some other courses, but not all)


    (Original post by cambo211)
    Have you done the English Language A-level by any chance?
    No, I'm doing English Literature


    (Original post by cambo211)
    Given that students are now required to stay in some form of education or training until they're 18, the idea of making any subject compulsory post-16 seems even more ridiculous
    When A-levels were completely voluntary, then it was fair to allow students to do whatever subjects they wanted to, as they had decided to continue education of their own free will; now that A-levels will become compulsory in the future, I think that it has become justified for schools to make some subjects compulsory, just as they had for GCSEs.
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    2) Amends the Compulsory Subjects Bill to allow schools to make English compulsory at post-16 if the school has a sizeable proportion of non-English pupils
    Why? English is 'De Facto' not the 'Official' language (De Facto Official doesn't make it official ). To do that would mean we would have to make English the official language of the UK officially.
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    If I'm honest pupils shouldn't be told what to study apart from Maths, Science and English at GCSE level. We shouldn't have the big tentacles of government molesting your education.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Why? English is 'De Facto' not the 'Official' language (De Facto Official doesn't make it official ). To do that would mean we would have to make English the official language of the UK officially.
    I admit that I didn't know that English is not the official language. However, I doubt that allowing schools to make English compulsory will have any legal impact on the 'de facto' status of our language (as it's already compulsory for GCSE, so extending this to some schools for A-level shouldn't make a technical difference to the legal status of English)

    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    If I'm honest pupils shouldn't be told what to study apart from Maths, Science and English at GCSE level. We shouldn't have the big tentacles of government molesting your education.
    It is clear that we have a problem with some non-native speakers (and to avoid any potential accusations of racism, I would count myself as a non-native speaker). There are areas around England where there are many people with a poor knowledge of English, which prevents them from fully integrating in British society (something which I believe that we must try and achieve, if we want to avoid the problems faced by France, which has ended up with comparatively many racial tensions because of ghettoisation). Although I agree that extra state involvement in education can be an evil, in this particular case it is a necessary evil.
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    (Original post by stanlas)
    I admit that I didn't know that English is not the official language. However, I doubt that allowing schools to make English compulsory will have any legal impact on the 'de facto' status of our language (as it's already compulsory for GCSE, so extending this to some schools for A-level shouldn't make a technical difference to the legal status of English)



    It is clear that we have a problem with some non-native speakers (and to avoid any potential accusations of racism, I would count myself as a non-native speaker). There are areas around England where there are many people with a poor knowledge of English, which prevents them from fully integrating in British society (something which I believe that we must try and achieve, if we want to avoid the problems faced by France, which has ended up with comparatively many racial tensions because of ghettoisation). Although I agree that extra state involvement in education can be an evil, in this particular case it is a necessary evil.
    What about those pupils who don't want to take English Lag at A-Level - wasting a perfectly good option choice
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    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    What about those pupils who don't want to take English Lag at A-Level - wasting a perfectly good option choice
    Again, I would like to emphasis that this petition would not make English Language compulsory for all students; it would only be compulsory in a minority of schools, which have opted to do so (and I imagine that the schools in question would consult the parents before making this decision). The majority of pupils affected by this change will benefit in the long term, as without a good command of English they will always feel like immigrants and won't integrate properly; hence I cannot agree with your claim that this would be 'wasting' an A-level option for them.
Updated: April 11, 2012
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