the way of the world is changing
Discuss issues related to the politics of the UK, such as the actions of any MP, any current or potential law, or any other factor affecting the British political system.
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Re: the way of the world is changingWhat is a "proper capitalist state"? Please don't say "one in which the banks would have been allowed to collapse."(Original post by Aj12)
No they aren't. In a proper capitalist state the banks would have been allowed to collapse. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingOne with very little if any intervention into the private market by the state.(Original post by Kibalchich)
What is a "proper capitalist state"? Please don't say "one in which the banks would have been allowed to collapse." -
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Re: the way of the world is changingAhhhh, a complete ahistorical fantasy then. Thought so.(Original post by Aj12)
One with very little if any intervention into the private market by the state. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingPretty much but it does not change the fact that though the occupy movement claim to be getting screwed by capitalism and bank bailouts those bailouts would not have happened if we were fully capitalist. I'm not really sure why some of the occupy movement actually wants more government intervention and less capitalism when thats what brought them out onto the streets(Original post by Kibalchich)
Ahhhh, a complete ahistorical fantasy then. Thought so. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingYou have an ideal of "capitalism" that is a fantasy. Capitalism has always required the state, in fact the birth of the nation state and the rise of capitalism as the dominant mode of production go hand in hand. To argue for a capitalism that has never existed and never could exist is...bizarre.(Original post by Aj12)
Pretty much but it does not change the fact that though the occupy movement claim to be getting screwed by capitalism and bank bailouts those bailouts would not have happened if we were fully capitalist. I'm not really sure why some of the occupy movement actually wants more government intervention and less capitalism when thats what brought them out onto the streets -
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Re: the way of the world is changingActually I'm not really arguing for anything merely pointed out that occupy should be taking issue with the government response to the recession and banking crisis rather than yelling and bitching endlessly about capitalism and how its failed.(Original post by Kibalchich)
You have an ideal of "capitalism" that is a fantasy. Capitalism has always required the state, in fact the birth of the nation state and the rise of capitalism as the dominant mode of production go hand in hand. To argue for a capitalism that has never existed and never could exist is...bizarre. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingEh? I've just pointed out that "the government response to the recession and banking crisis" is capitalism.(Original post by Aj12)
Actually I'm not really arguing for anything merely pointed out that occupy should be taking issue with the government response to the recession and banking crisis rather than yelling and bitching endlessly about capitalism and how its failed. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingEconomists are reductionist with their thinking. The cause of every crisis is reduced to some external factor(s), driving the market away from equilibrium. Despite the fact that all notions of the 'free market', 'perfect competition', 'Pareto optimality', 'exogenous preferences' ect. are completely empirically unsupported and theoretically defunct. It makes sense for occupy to 'bitch endlessly about capitalism' because capitalism always ends up with inequality and crisis, despite what excuse is given, or what modification is made to the current neoclassical theory.(Original post by Aj12)
Actually I'm not really arguing for anything merely pointed out that occupy should be taking issue with the government response to the recession and banking crisis rather than yelling and bitching endlessly about capitalism and how its failed. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingThe only reasons you are pointing out these movements or upsrising is because they are televised and you can see them through the internet. Things have always been like this, there have been countless revolutions and coupes across Africa and the Middle east/south Asia, there have always been protests accross western nations, infact, protests have fallen a lot and so have their numbers, the Iraq war protest was the biggest in decades. The occupy movement is tiny and is supported by about 5% of the population, the ideas a little more, but certainly not, or near the half way mark.
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Re: the way of the world is changingSays the person who does it on TSR everyday(Original post by Infallible)
Occupy are a complete joke. All they do is sit on their backside whining about something or other.
If you want something, do something! Don't just sit down whining. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingThey were protesting about tax avoidance, which is standard capitalist behaviour, i.e. they were protesting against capitalists being capitalists.(Original post by RyanT)
They were protesting about tax evasion in our bankrupt state and about working class taxpayers money being used to save international businesses from the laws of the market.
Nothing to do with capitalism. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingPerhaps not, but the protestors didn't lobby the Government. They focused their anger on capitalists.(Original post by Aj12)
No they aren't. In a proper capitalist state the banks would have been allowed to collapse. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingYou're asking a very difficult question because while "capitalists" in theory support minimal taxation, a small state, private property and free markets, their ideology is embedded with state granted favours and measures that are profoundly anti-free market.(Original post by Kibalchich)
What is a "proper capitalist state"? Please don't say "one in which the banks would have been allowed to collapse."
In my capitalist utopia we'd have a minimal state defending the borders, providing an efficient court system and generally upholding private property but we'd also aggressively protect the sanctity of the free market, so that means no more government favours for anybody.
Bog standard capitalists are deeply confused. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingIt was a trick question. You fell for it.(Original post by chefdave)
You're asking a very difficult question because while "capitalists" in theory support minimal taxation, a small state, private property and free markets, their ideology is embedded with state granted favours and measures that are profoundly anti-free market.
In my capitalist utopia we'd have a minimal state defending the borders, providing an efficient court system and generally upholding private property but we'd also aggressively protect the sanctity of the free market, so that means no more government favours for anybody.
Bog standard capitalists are deeply confused. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingThe capitalist state isn't an oxymoron, capitalists universally recognise that a central force is necessary to defend basic property rights. Capitalists aren't anti government, they're anti big, useless and corrupt government. There's a bit of a difference!(Original post by Kibalchich)
It was a trick question. You fell for it. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingNo ****, Sherlock. You're on fire tonight.(Original post by chefdave)
The capitalist state isn't an oxymoron, capitalists universally recognise that a central force is necessary to defend basic property rights. Capitalists aren't anti government, they're anti big, useless and corrupt government. There's a bit of a difference! -
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Re: the way of the world is changingDo you care to explain how I fell into you cunning trap then?(Original post by Kibalchich)
No ****, Sherlock. You're on fire tonight. -
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Re: the way of the world is changingHaha, okay then. You're entitled to your false views.(Original post by IamBeowulf)
Says the person who does it on TSR everyday
