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Does this country need a more hard-Line leader?

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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    Were the points I made wholly incorrect? I agree wholeheartedly with the article btw.
    The points you made in that particular post were, on the whole, correct (stick in a class analyis and we're there). However, your main thrust on this thread has been one based on identity politics and culture.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    The points you made in that particular post were, on the whole, correct (stick in a class analyis and we're there). However, your main thrust on this thread has been one based on identity politics and culture.
    The system is multicultural. To make any points to someone that has a multicultural ideological worldview I have to talk in their language. So.. they have to view the white working class as another ethnic identity group to feel any kind of sympathy for them.

    But you're right identity politics sucks and I should be more careful that I don't indulge in it myself.
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    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    I haven't any experience of the EDL, but having just looked them up, they seem to be against Islam in Britain and resort to violence. I don't want anything to do with violence, thanks, but I have no problem saying that Islam isn't a British thing. Because it isn't.
    Well, if by that you mean the fact that it originated somewhere else then neither is Christianity. If you want to do the "British thing", convert to Paganism at once.

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    Well, first things first, put an immediate halt to immigration. Nobody comes in for at least about five years until we can get some proper laws down about who exactly can enter.
    Seems pretty damn authoritarian to me. But I'm like that I guess.

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    Next, sort out this silly justice system we have. Make the sentences suit the crimes.
    Making subjective statements doesn't make your post very clear...

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    Any immigrants who perform significant crimes (ie murder, extreme violence etc) are sent back to where they came from, no messing about.
    You speak as though that's an easy thing to do. You've got to have the government of their original country to agree with you, ensure they're not just going to come right back to this country, etc.

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    Health and safety needs to be scrapped, at least, the extremities of it. We need a leader who isn't afraid to say "that's just silly, get real" to the idiots.
    Who are the idiots? anyway, we need health and safety. Although I agree some are pretty silly, without it, companies would do things which could indeed endanger both their workers and those around them to cut costs. A notable example of this was the BP oil leak back in 2010. While other authorities would regulate offshore oil platforms to have an acoustically activated kill-switch, the US did not, fearing it would cost too much, thus making their drilling less competitive, and you can't just say "companies don't want to damage their reputation" of course they don't, but they also don't want to loose shareholders which is precisely what spending lots of money on such a device could have done, plus, is it really right that others should be injured just because they decided to be idiots?

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    The same for the whole political correctness thing.
    Which is? from my experience, political correctness is just a label the right-wing media give to anything they disagree with...

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    On the same note, freedom of speech will be brought back. Everyone's allowed their own opinion and can't be arrested for it.
    Agreed.

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    End Multiculturism once and for all. If you follow a culture that isn't traditionally British, or is quite clearly a vastly different culture from another country, then you're not welcome. If you want to live in Britain, you do things our way, not yours. Respect that.
    So, when people decided to go to say, a Chinese takeaway instead of getting Fish & Chips, they should be deported? what's your problem with the free market?

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    End language barriers. If you can't/won't speak English, then you can't stay, simple as that.
    As the guy above mentioned, English isn't the only native language in Britain. And what about people who say stuff like "Hey, you is sick blud"?

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    And then, probably my least popular point, the new leader will put the English first. This is England, not India or [insert other foreign country here]. We need to serve our own people first, we need to give them the jobs, the education, the housing. Not people who have only lived here ten years.
    So, you plan on raising the age of starting school to 11?

    (Original post by lonelyknight)
    Instead of the ridiculous attitude that everyone on here seems to have (that if the whole English population isn't good enough for jobs, we should just import, say, the whole of China here - just because they are better at the jobs - theoretically) we need to train our own people, show them loyalty.
    etc.
    But at the end of the day we can't do everything in this country. Nor do we have the drive for it. I mean really, imagine you're starting a restaurant, are you really going to hire the English guy who doesn't really care for the job and will only work part-time, or the Indian guy who will work about 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and has every reason to work hard since it's what allows him into the country?
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    Well, if by that you mean the fact that it originated somewhere else then neither is Christianity. If you want to do the "British thing", convert to Paganism at once.



    Seems pretty damn authoritarian to me. But I'm like that I guess.



    Making subjective statements doesn't make your post very clear...



    You speak as though that's an easy thing to do. You've got to have the government of their original country to agree with you, ensure they're not just going to come right back to this country, etc.



    Who are the idiots? anyway, we need health and safety. Although I agree some are pretty silly, without it, companies would do things which could indeed endanger both their workers and those around them to cut costs. A notable example of this was the BP oil leak back in 2010. While other authorities would regulate offshore oil platforms to have an acoustically activated kill-switch, the US did not, fearing it would cost too much, thus making their drilling less competitive, and you can't just say "companies don't want to damage their reputation" of course they don't, but they also don't want to loose shareholders which is precisely what spending lots of money on such a device could have done, plus, is it really right that others should be injured just because they decided to be idiots?



    Which is? from my experience, political correctness is just a label the right-wing media give to anything they disagree with...



    Agreed.



    So, when people decided to go to say, a Chinese takeaway instead of getting Fish & Chips, they should be deported? what's your problem with the free market?



    As the guy above mentioned, English isn't the only native language in Britain. And what about people who say stuff like "Hey, you is sick blud"?



    So, you plan on raising the age of starting school to 11?



    But at the end of the day we can't do everything in this country. Nor do we have the drive for it. I mean really, imagine you're starting a restaurant, are you really going to hire the English guy who doesn't really care for the job and will only work part-time, or the Indian guy who will work about 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and has every reason to work hard since it's what allows him into the country?
    If the quality of our native workforce is really that questionable, isn't that a structural problem within our own society? I mean we can't very well simply import a new working class cos we've gone off the old one. Surely?
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    The system is multicultural. To make any points to someone that has a multicultural ideological worldview I have to talk in their language. So.. they have to view the white working class as another ethnic identity group to feel any kind of sympathy for them.

    But you're right identity politics sucks and I should be more careful that I don't indulge in it myself.
    So why all the talk about an English culture that needs defending? My point earlier about David Cameron, jungle and Glyndebourne was essentially about class. A white lad on growing up on Stockwell Gardens Estate, is much more likely to go to listen to Congo Natty than opera - despite Congo Natty having a big rasta influence and opera being essentially white European.

    Take my Pakistani neigbours - should I concentrate on our differences? That wear different clothes, have different religions, eat different foods? Or should we look for what we have in common - we are both working class, want good schools for our kids, need the NHS, good libraries, decent housing, better employment conditions etc?
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    (Original post by Tudball)
    In that case, the nature of the change is crucial.
    The natural shifting and realigning of culture is observable and undisputed. But the supplanting of a given culture with another does not fit into that mould. Cultures are geographic, of course. The product of human coexistence within a given geographic area tends to define culture, and although the nature of human coexistence may shift, that "shift" is characterised by a general and aggregate cultural realignment, right? The culture changes because the people change in unison (if they didn't, then separate cultures would emerge, as they often do) - it assumes the integration of all people within that area. If everyone changes, then no one changes - I think that about sums it up.
    I don't think it is always as consensual as you suggest. The history of these isles is rather bloody as I'm sure you are aware and the effect this has had on our culture is rather obvious. Of course it isn't quite as simple as invasion leading to a change in culture but we could get bogged down in the small details and miss the bigger picture.

    (Original post by Tudball)
    But the migration of people and their own cultural values is what these people are attempting to "defend" England from, so to speak. We can assume a general domestic culture - however you define it - and the movement of different and unrelated cultures into our borders will cause natural tension and friction. There's no shared ground - no agreed-upon values. It isn't changing naturally; how you describe, but through artificial forces, such as migration and internal segregation.
    What about migration isn't natural exactly? Humans have migrated across the face of this earth for thousands of years so I'm a little unsure as how migration can be described as artifical. We've arrived at a point where we have developed as a society and can apply seemingly arbitrary quotas and limits on things. It would seem that the way in which we deal with and talk about migration is far more artificial than the migration itself.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)


    But at the end of the day we can't do everything in this country. Nor do we have the drive for it. I mean really, imagine you're starting a restaurant, are you really going to hire the English guy who doesn't really care for the job and will only work part-time, or the Indian guy who will work about 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and has every reason to work hard since it's what allows him into the country?
    Apply class to this argument.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    So why all the talk about an English culture that needs defending? My point earlier about David Cameron, jungle and Glyndebourne was essentially about class. A white lad on growing up on Stockwell Gardens Estate, is much more likely to go to listen to Congo Natty than opera - despite Congo Natty having a big rasta influence and opera being essentially white European.

    Take my Pakistani neigbours - should I concentrate on our differences? That wear different clothes, have different religions, eat different foods? Or should we look for what we have in common - we are both working class, want good schools for our kids, need the NHS, good libraries, decent housing, better employment conditions etc?
    I never said it needs defending. I said it needs equal treatment to other cultures and should be viewed as just as legitimate.

    I listen to alot of heavy metal - a working class subculture coming from white europeans. I also listen to reggae etc. White european doesn't mean priviledged.

    Not at all. Neither should they. They shouldn't specifically try not to be English.

    Goes both ways.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    If the quality of our native workforce is really that questionable, isn't that a structural problem within our own society? I mean we can't very well simply import a new working class cos we've gone off the old one. Surely?
    It's structural, but not just in our own society. Immigration can have an effect on driving wages down and putting the people already here out of work. Is this the fault of the immigrant? Immgrants will often accept lower wages, longer hours and poorer working conditions to get a leg up, or maybe they don't have a family here to support or maybe are doubling up in bedrooms etc. Is the solution to then attack that immigrant, to drive them out or to not let them in? That would be a solution based on identity and culture. A solution based on class would be to organise these immigrant workers into unions, to have class solidarity and demand better wages and working conditions for all.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    I never said it needs defending. I said it needs equal treatment to other cultures and should be viewed as just as legitimate.

    I listen to alot of heavy metal - a working class subculture coming from white europeans. I also listen to reggae etc. White european doesn't mean priviledged.

    Not at all. Neither should they. They shouldn't specifically try not to be English.

    Goes both ways.
    Heavy metal has its roots in the blues btw.

    Your argument was about ethnicity and identity - example

    Culture is more than a phrase, a song, a list of points. It's a set of beliefs and behaviours that organically develop within a specific geographic area, usually beholden to a specific ethnic group.
    English people just need their own culture within the pantheon of multiculturalism
    etc

    this is a multicultural line of argument
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    (Original post by SeismicHazard)
    I don't think it is always as consensual as you suggest. The history of these isles is rather bloody as I'm sure you are aware and the effect this has had on our culture is rather obvious. Of course it isn't quite as simple as invasion leading to a change in culture but we could get bogged down in the small details and miss the bigger picture.



    What about migration isn't natural exactly? Humans have migrated across the face of this earth for thousands of years so I'm a little unsure as how migration can be described as artifical. We've arrived at a point where we have developed as a society and can apply seemingly arbitrary quotas and limits on things. It would seem that the way in which we deal with and talk about migration is far more artificial than the migration itself.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/fe...-record-levels

    This year, there was the largest amount of people immigrating to Britain in recorded history 250,000. It's not natural. It's man made and it's driven by economics and politics.

    England is one of the most densely populated countries in europe, if not the world. There is simply no more room. Not enough housing. Overstretched emergency services. Massive rioting.

    We don't need more people. More doctors etc, fine, but there is no need for more unskilled workers.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/fe...-record-levels

    This year, there was the largest amount of people immigrating to Britain in recorded history 250,000. It's not natural. It's man made and it's driven by economics and politics.

    England is one of the most densely populated countries in europe, if not the world. There is simply no more room. Not enough housing. Overstretched emergency services. Massive rioting.

    We don't need more people. More doctors etc, fine, but there is no need for more unskilled workers.
    This is not an argument :facepalm:
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    You're still applying identity politics. I think you have missed the point of the IWCA article.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    It's structural, but not just in our own society. Immigration can have an effect on driving wages down and putting the people already here out of work. Is this the fault of the immigrant? Immgrants will often accept lower wages, longer hours and poorer working conditions to get a leg up, or maybe they don't have a family here to support or maybe are doubling up in bedrooms etc. Is the solution to then attack that immigrant, to drive them out or to not let them in? That would be a solution based on identity and culture. A solution based on class would be to organise these immigrant workers into unions, to have class solidarity and demand better wages and working conditions for all.
    No. I wish people wouldn't presume that anti-immigration people think that. I blame the government and specifically the liberal elite that has ruined left-wing politics.

    I agree. We have to do that now. But also we should not exacerbate the problem by continuing to import hundreds of thousands of people every year, to a place where they are encouraged to segregate themselves from the native populace.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    This is not an argument :facepalm:
    I was replying to the posters assertion that such levels of migration are natural, they are evidently not.

    What of my other points?
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Heavy metal has its roots in the blues btw.

    Your argument was about ethnicity and identity - example





    etc

    this is a multicultural line of argument
    lol, i know.

    That's simply the definition of culture. I didn't just make it up.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    If the quality of our native workforce is really that questionable, isn't that a structural problem within our own society? I mean we can't very well simply import a new working class cos we've gone off the old one. Surely?
    Well no. It's simply because our native workforce is becoming more and more highly-skilled, so instead of doing jobs like that they're instead taking much better jobs in things like engineering, science, the law, finance, education, medicine, the arts, business, etc. and so they only really take jobs in things like shops and restaurants either temporarily while they're learning or because there's nothing else out there.

    I mean my Mum and Dad are a sales assistant and postal worker respectively, yet I'm on an engineering course planning a career in design. The fact is that education has just improved the available jobs around, resulting in unskilled jobs being considered by many to be non-lucrative and indignifying.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    Well no. It's simply because our native workforce is becoming more and more highly-skilled, so instead of doing jobs like that they're instead taking much better jobs in things like engineering, science, the law, finance, education, medicine, the arts, business, etc. and so they only really take jobs in things like shops and restaurants either temporarily while they're learning or because there's nothing else out there.

    I mean my Mum and Dad are a sales assistant and postal worker respectively, yet I'm on an engineering course planning a career in design. The fact is that education has just improved the available jobs around, resulting in unskilled jobs being considered by many to be non-lucrative and indignifying.
    Surely the children of the immigrants coming to do these jobs will feel the same way. Then what, import more workers? Is the cycle to go on indefinately?
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    You're still applying identity politics. I think you have missed the point of the IWCA article.
    I'm trying not to.

    Appreciate the article btw. Will be showing as many people as I can.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    Well no. It's simply because our native workforce is becoming more and more highly-skilled, so instead of doing jobs like that they're instead taking much better jobs in things like engineering, science, the law, finance, education, medicine, the arts, business, etc. and so they only really take jobs in things like shops and restaurants either temporarily while they're learning or because there's nothing else out there.

    I mean my Mum and Dad are a sales assistant and postal worker respectively, yet I'm on an engineering course planning a career in design. The fact is that education has just improved the available jobs around, resulting in unskilled jobs being considered by many to be non-lucrative and indignifying.
    This is not true. It may be the case for the middle classes, but not for vast sections of the working class.

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