[AP1989]

(Original post by Bonged.)
*buzz* wrong!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mo...e-1069502.html

In 1999. Things will be worse now.

So discrimination is purely race attacks, is it?

[Captain Haddock]

(Original post by Bonged.)
Problem? Does it matter that the serf's oppressors had the same skin colour?

Well, actually yes there are lots of problems with that comparison and honestly I don't even know where to start but suffice it to say yes the race aspect does matter.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by AP1989)
So discrimination is purely race attacks, is it?

No, but surely if blacks are so brutally oppressed there would still be racial attacks on them. That is now very rare.

[AP1989]

(Original post by marcusfox)
No, it would be more accurate to describe the example as though we were discussing a white person who was complaining about how he was beaten up and robbed by a black person.

And then you coming along and telling him it's somehow not equally as bad as a white person beating up and robbing a black person because of crimes committed hundreds of years ago.

The act itself is of course equally as bad but racism on a whole is felt to more significant extent towards black people.

I have seriously grown tired of having to give such obvious replies to your questions.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Well, actually yes there are lots of problems with that comparison and honestly I don't even know where to start but suffice it to say yes the race aspect does matter.

Go on, give it a shot.

Explain.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by AP1989)
The act itself is of course equally as bad but racism on a whole is felt to more significant extent towards black people.

I have seriously grown tired of having to give such obvious replies to your questions.

What do you even mean by that?

[AP1989]

(Original post by Bonged.)
No, but surely if blacks are so brutally oppressed there would still be racial attacks on them. That is now very rare.

I never said 'brutally', physical attacks are not a significant problem - think about opportunities and addressing poverty and lack of achievement. Discrimination in terms of not putting enough resources into black communities.

[AP1989]

(Original post by Bonged.)
What do you even mean by that?

It affects them more so. Developed a culture of not wanting to try, hating the system, the government...

[Bonged.]

(Original post by AP1989)
I never said 'brutally', physical attacks are not a significant problem - think about opportunities and addressing poverty and lack of achievement. Discrimination in terms of not putting enough resources into black communities.

I swear when the majority were against ethnic minorities physical racist attacks were indeed a significant problem. If you ask someone that has been racially attacked, they will tell you it is a significant problem.

Enough? What will be enough? They already are allocated more resources than the white community, proportionally.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by AP1989)
It affects them more so. Developed a culture of not wanting to try, hating the system, the government...

Similar traits to the white working class or any historically mistreated group.

[Captain Haddock]

(Original post by Bonged.)
Go on, give it a shot.

Explain.

... Really? Come on. Just read a book or something.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
... Really? Come on. Just read a book or something.

It appears it is you that needs to read more books. History books, specifically.

But, lets not let this degenerate into ad hominems, if you are capable of disproving what I said, let's see.

Why does it matter whether your oppressor has a similar level of melanin in their skin?

[Captain Haddock]

(Original post by Bonged.)
It appears it is you that needs to read more books. History books, specifically.

But, lets not let this degenerate into ad hominems, if you are capable of disproving what I said, let's see.

Well, I mean, I don't usually like to use this line but considering I have a degree in medieval and early modern history I think I've done quite enough of that already. It's just very obvious to me that you have not correctly conceptualised feudalism or the slave trade and the issues associated with both and honestly I'm not the best person to remedy that. They're just very different beasts.

[marcusfox]

(Original post by AP1989)
The act itself is of course equally as bad but racism on a whole is felt to more significant extent towards black people.

I have seriously grown tired of having to give such obvious replies to your questions.

You are looking for a way out of this conversation because you have dug yourself into a hole.

Who are you to judge how races other than yours feel about discrimination directed at them purely because of their colour? What gives you that right?

[Bonged.]

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Well, I mean, I don't usually like to use this line but considering I have a degree in medieval and early modern history I think I've done quite enough of that already. It's just very obvious to me that you have not correctly conceptualised feudalism or the slave trade and the issues associated with both and honestly I'm not the best person to remedy that. They're just very different beasts.

Not good enough, sorry.

Why does it matter whether the person oppressing you has the same or different levels of melanin in their skin?

[Captain Haddock]

(Original post by Bonged.)
Not good enough, sorry.

Why does it matter whether the person oppressing you has the same or different levels of melanin in their skin?

Sigh. It's not about the oppressor, it's about the oppressed. If the oppressed is being enslaved due to their ethnicity then obviously race is a fundamental factor and obviously it matters. Of course, this is different to feudalism because feudalism was based on socio-economic status, not race. Socio-economic status is something that can be changed over time, race isn't. After the slave trade ended, blacks were still discriminated against by the legal system, and racism is still very much alive today. You cannot go out into the countryside today and point to some farmer and say 'that guy's ancestors were serfs, he still receives abuse because of it, the police discriminate against him and a large number of people hate his very existence'. It's just ****ing different. Jesus.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Sigh. It's not about the oppressor, it's about the oppressed. If the oppressed is being enslaved due to their ethnicity then obviously race is a fundamental factor and obviously it matters. Of course, this is different to feudalism because feudalism was based on socio-economic status, not race. Socio-economic status is something that can be changed over time, race isn't. After the slave trade ended, blacks were still discriminated against by the legal system, and racism is still very much alive today. You cannot go out into the countryside today and point to some farmer and say 'that guy's ancestors were serfs, he still receives abuse because of it, the police discriminate against him and a large number of people hate his very existence'. It's just ****ing different. Jesus.

There is plenty of class discrimination. Still very much alive today. Next.

How?

Interestingly, the lords and nobles were largely of norman descent, whilst the serfs were of British stock, so there's even a race aspect there if you fancy looking for it. Obv it might not ring as true with some peeps as normans and british are both white so it doesn't fit their world view of who oppresses who.

[TheGreatReformer]

(Original post by AP1989)
The fact that you have this attitude means we really can't discuss this.

They need a lot of help addressing the obvious socio-economic issues which seem to plague their communities. It is unacceptable that they perform so poorly in school compared to other races along with the high levels of crime. They often report on feeling discriminated against and out of touch with the police force etc. Therefore this needs to be addressed first.

I believe this relates to those of lower socio-economic backgrounds? I wouldn't say that those in higher socio-economic environments have these issues at all.

[Captain Haddock]

(Original post by Bonged.)
There is plenty of class discrimination. Still very much alive today. Next.

How?

Interestingly, the lords and nobles were largely of norman descent, whilst the serfs were of British stock, so there's even a race aspect there if you fancy looking for it. Obv it might not ring as true with some peeps as normans and british are both white so it doesn't fit their world view of who oppresses who.

Classism exists, yes. Can you seriously not see any fundamental differences between race and socio-economic status? I already explained how the two are different and all you came up with is the incredibly weak response above that ignores the vast majority of my post. Feudalism was a social hierarchy that encompassed society in its entirety, slavery was an institution that oppressed one particular group.

[Bonged.]

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Classism exists, yes. Can you seriously not see any fundamental differences between race and socio-economic status? I already explained how the two are different and all you came up with is the incredibly weak response above that ignores the vast majority of my post. Feudalism was a social hierarchy that encompassed society in its entirety, slavery was an institution that oppressed one particular group.

..your post was simply telling me that it is. full stop. that's your subjective opinion until you substantiate it with evidence.

Why does it matter whether the group is oppressed because of socio-economic status or because of skin colour? Just saying - well it's just worse, isn't it? doesn't cut it.

I understand the fundamental difference between race and class, it appears you do not, a wealthy black man is far better off than a poor white or chinese man, yet you would view that black man as somehow "more oppressed". That is actually racist.

Basically, you've formed the view that black people are "more oppressed" than any other group (not taking into account socio-economic disparity between people within that group). You can't actually give any reasoning for that view so you dismiss evidence that moderates that view.

What do you make of the race aspect between the native British and the normans? Not interested?