[Old School]

Surely the fact that religious people have to go to such lengths to justify that their religious books and prophets do not condone slavery/rape/murder/child molestation/homophobia/racism and so on should tell us all something about their validity...

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by mel0n)
As a Muslim yourself? Funny you have the same username with a slight difference as ideas4life - who's near the top of the list of anti-Islam users Stop being such a wum and find something better to do with your time instead of started a topic you know will receive extremely controversial replies. Not to mention it has been done to death.

Good work, Nancy Drew! No ****.

[Alpharius]

(Original post by nizam.clt)
True. It is Allah who made us to desire what He permitted. It is also true that Allah doesn't want us to desire what we don't deserve.

- If you have the desire to your wife then it is permitted.
- If you have the desire to somebody else's wife then it is prohibited.

Now listen carefully -

Morality Principle - 1

"The prostitution of the eyes is looking;

- If you look at your wife with that eye then it is not prostitution of the eye.
- If you look at somebody else's wife with that eye then it is prostitution of the eye.

OR

- Are you going to say that if someone else looks at your wife/sister/mother with that eye then it is okay for you ?



Now tell me that the Morality Principle - 1 is a ridiculous principle ?

OK, now this thread has been revived (stupidly), I've just noticed this. I guess you were hoping I wouldn't notice you quote, seeing as you removed my name from the quotation?

Whatever we feel is natural. If I look at this from a theists perspective we have this world, the natural world (which we experience every moment) and the supernatural world (things that are not part of nature, so we do not experience or have evidence experiencing).

If Allah created this natural world, then everything in it is natural. That ranges from desire of your wife, or your neighbours wife, or your neighbours behind (if your that way inclined). Allah intended everything, but according to you theists then realised he did a botched job and did a U-turn, telling us to supress the same desires he gave us. So much for being perfect, all-knowing and incapable of making a mistake. If God was an engineer, he'd have been fired for the amount of botched jobs in nature.

As for your last sentence, my answer? I might not be happy that someone is eyeing up my mother/wife/sister (if I had one), but it's only natural. Why do you talk about women as if they were just an object, and at that, an object you own?

So yes, rediculus.

[member910132]

Is the fact that the Prophet was commanded by God himself to marry Aisha at a young age not enough to silence the critics ? The issue here isn't the marriage it is whether you believe He was a prophet or not.

[FatumaRocks]

At this this time, in the 21st century, it is wrong to marry a young child as there may be a great age gap. However our prophet was an example for this but not in a bad way. Ok he was about 47 when he married 9 year old Aisha (ra) ....However the thing that people mistake about and end up insulting our beloved Prophet (saw) is for the fact that, in Islam you become a woman when you get menstruation, therefore she was a woman,,,,and at those times they were stronger and bigger than us, and she looked like a 16 year old girl. And to add to my point, our Aisha (ra) wasn't exactly married to the prophet at 9, she was just engaged, and properly married the Prophet (saw) when she was about 13.

[Gawjuz.x]

(Original post by UnknownPerson)
As a Muslim i would suggest if you have any Questions you should ask scholars who will be able to answer your question with references to numerous books. Asking a question on TSR about Islam gives a lot of people a chance to criticize and say a lot of negative stuff about it which in reality is completely false; especially when a lot of people don't really know anything about their own religion and their own belief let alone Mine or Yours ...

I'm sorry but I completely agree with this. Why do you (or anyone in that matter) want to bring up such a topic which will give opportunities for others to critisize Islam? Then all Muslims begin to argue and talk about how non-Muslims 'don't know the right thing' and are 'ignorant' and are 'misguided' which ultimately leads to World War III on TSR. How are we ever supposed to teach them the right thing when we don't approach it the correct way in the first place?
If you have such doubts, as 'UnknownPerson' said, go to someone wise; a scholar or an Aalim or an Imaam...not a whole bunch of 15-20 year old's who are trying to make sense of their own religion to begin with.

I apologise for bringing this up, but this is why people start taking the advantage of saying so many bad things about Islam..which makes Muslims more upset and annoyed...which make the others critisize it more...and eventually we can't respond. :/

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by FatumaRocks)
and at those times they were stronger and bigger than us, and she looked like a 16 year old girl.

How do you know?

And to add to my point, our Aisha (ra) wasn't exactly married to the prophet at 9, she was just engaged, and properly married the Prophet (saw) when she was about 13.

According to Hadiths she was 6 at the time of marriage, and 9 years old at the time of consummation.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by IdeasForLife)
People (especially critics) always point out she was 6-9 year old when she was married to the Prophet, as a muslim I really did believe them for a while and really thought upon this thinking basically "WTF"
but since then I have found websites which give well other sources, saying her age was different sometimes 12, sometimes 14, and sometimes 17-18.

http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html

Have a look at this site, I know it is written by a muslim so critics will probably rub it off as bias or something.
This is not an attempt to make you believe she was older or younger, this is just to show some people there are other sources then the ones critics normally state.
However the main point of this is to show people there other accounts of her age other then the 6-9 year old ones which Critics love to mention.


My conclusion - I don't know what her age was and seeing the amount of sources I have decided against agreeing on an age since the sources just contradict each other, and the only way to know which one is correct is if we were alive at the time and witnessed it.

Thanks for reading.

why does it matter to you, 6 or 9 ifyou follow islam you are suppossed to beleive mohammed was the best example of a muslim ever whatever

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by FatumaRocks)
in Islam you become a woman when you get menstruation, therefore she was a woman,,,,and at those times they were stronger and bigger than us, and she looked like a 16 year old girl..

i think you are mixing up Aisha with Xena the warrior princess. You can go to saudi arabia and look at a 9 year old muslim girl. Unless shes been on steroids, she will look like a 9 year old girl.

[nizam.clt]

(Original post by Alpharius)
OK, now this thread has been revived (stupidly), I've just noticed this. I guess you were hoping I wouldn't notice you quote, seeing as you removed my name from the quotation?

Whatever we feel is natural. If I look at this from a theists perspective we have this world, the natural world (which we experience every moment) and the supernatural world (things that are not part of nature, so we do not experience or have evidence experiencing).

If Allah created this natural world, then everything in it is natural. That ranges from desire of your wife, or your neighbours wife, or your neighbours behind (if your that way inclined). Allah intended everything, but according to you theists then realised he did a botched job and did a U-turn, telling us to supress the same desires he gave us. So much for being perfect, all-knowing and incapable of making a mistake. If God was an engineer, he'd have been fired for the amount of botched jobs in nature.

As for your last sentence, my answer? I might not be happy that someone is eyeing up my mother/wife/sister (if I had one), but it's only natural. Why do you talk about women as if they were just an object, and at that, an object you own?

So yes, rediculus.

If Allah created this natural world, then everything in it is natural.

Exactly.

- It is part of that nature that a human should not look at the opposite sex with that desire.
- It is part of that nature that a human should only have that with their spouse.

Going against this very nature is an act of aggression on nature.

or your neighbours wife, or your neighbours behind (if your that way inclined).

Islam does not see this as part of nature. Islam does see this as going against the nature. Otherwise there is no need of The Morality Principle - 1

Else

Are you going to say that it is quite nature that somebody else can have that with your beloved ones ?

- Do you believe that doing that, is part of that nature ?

Or

- Do you believe that doing that, is NOT part of that nature ?

Please clarify your stand.

I might not be happy that someone is eyeing up my mother/wife/sister

So you are not happy. That is good. That is exactly what Mohammad The Messenger of God said, that don't do that.

telling us to supress the same desires he gave us

Islam does not see this as an act of suppression; it is is an act of obeying the command of Almighty God. At the same time Mohammad The Messenger of God has clearly mentioned when and where one can discharge their sexual desires.

There is charity in sexual intercourse." He was asked, "Is there charity in satisfying one's appetite ?" He replied, "If he does it in a prohibited manner, is that not a wrong action ? Similarly if he does it in a permitted manner, he receives a reward." Imam Bukhari

- Islam teaches that having Intercourse with one's Wife, is a Charity and it will be rewarded !

- Islam teaches that if a human is having intercourse in a prohibited manner then it will cause chaos in human life.

So yes, rediculus.

Yes, it is ridiculous that at one hand you are not happy on what Mohammad The Messenger of God is also not happy but on the other hand you say that
what Mohammad The Messenger of God said is ridiculous !!

[The_Last_Melon]

You can tell a post is crap by the amount of bold, underlined, italicized and colored text there is.

[nizam.clt]

(Original post by Cattty)
really?? your saying people who disagree with you are ignorant when you follow a religion founded by a paedo?

it makes no difference if her parents agreed or neighbours, etc. people sell their children for profit (haha get it?) even in poor countries today.

the fact is muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl who still had a childs body- so was still a child no matter what society thought at the time. this makes him a paedo

very interesting how people are so indoctrinated by their religion that they will actually condone paedopillia......

your saying people who disagree with you are ignorant

I didn't say that.

What I said first is -

They are ignorant of The Principles and The Etiquette of prophet Mohammad.

• They are ignorant of The Marriage Principles
• They are ignorant of The Married Life Principles
• They are ignorant of The Morality Principles
• They are ignorant of The Family Principles
• They are ignorant of The Family Etiquette
• They are ignorant of The Behavioral Etiquette
• ...
• They are ignorant of The Financial Principles
• They are ignorant of The Charity Principles
• They are ignorant of The Righteousness Principles
• They are ignorant of The Manners Principles
• They are ignorant of The Patience Principles
• ...
• They are ignorant of The Life Principles
• ...

About these, I said first, that people are ignorant.

people sell their children for profit (haha get it?)

This is what I said next that you like people are ignorant about.

If you have read this, then it is there that -

They greeted her with the words, "For good and for happiness, may all be well."

For you like people, it is for the "profit (haha get it?)" that one does such a marriage and that is why it is said -

- Whenever they hear the marriage of a young girl they soon remember the material world and its benefits.

But for her parents, it was not for any such material benefits that they married their 9 year old girl to Mohammad The Messenger of God and that is why it is said -

- The parents of Aisha were well aware of The Great Mission of her marriage to prophet Mohammad.

For Aisha, it was not for any such material benefits that she married Mohammad The Messenger of God and hence one can see in their life -

Aisha said, "I used to see the new moon, then the new moon, then the new moon, i. e. three moons in two months, and fire was not kindled in the house of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)." - Imam Bukhari.

- Their life was not a cosy life.
- Their life was that of poverty.

fact is muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl who still had a childs body

Firstly, it was not fulfilling the material lust that Mohammad The Messenger of God married a 9 year girl. It was for a Great Mission.

That is why it is said -

- They are ignorant on the mission of the marriage between Prophet Mohammad and Aisha.

That is why it is said -

- They are ignorant of The Great Personality of Aisha made by prophet Mohammad.

Secondly, if Mohammad The Messenger of God had intercourse with Aisha then he had it on the right time because he had the best sense of morality than you and that is why it is said -

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he had that great sense of morality.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he had protected the chastity of women.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he firmly stood against any kind of prostitution.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he allowed, what should be allowed and prevented, what should be prevented.
- ...

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then it was based on these kind of 100s of Principles of Morality.

very interesting how people are so indoctrinated by their religion

This indoctrination is as a result of the replacement of ignorance with that of knowledge and that is why it is said there -

"Hence, the marriage of prophet Mohammad with Aisha was A Great Tribute for The People of Knowledge."

[Alpharius]

(Original post by nizam.clt)
Exactly.

- It is part of that nature that a human should not look at the opposite sex with that desire.
- It is part of that nature that a human should only have that with their spouse.

Going against this very nature is an act of aggression on nature.

...

I stopped reading after that. A complete contradiction.

You sir are an idiot that is not worth arguing with.

[nizam.clt]

(Original post by Alpharius)
I stopped reading after that. A complete contradiction.

You sir are an idiot that is not worth arguing with.

If Allah created this natural world, then everything in it is natural. That ranges from desire of your wife, or your neighbours wife, or your neighbours behind (if your that way inclined).

I just asked you a very simple question based on your own comment.

You said that "then everything in it is natural". Based on that, I ask you

- Having that eye towards somebody else's wife is part of that nature or not (Yes/No) ?

[Khadim uz Zahra]

In The Name of Allah (SWT), The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful.

Here is a quote about something I wrote on this issue a while ago:

I hope you are all in the best of health and Imaan (faith).

So, I have recently seen people being very concerned about the allegation some non-Muslims make against the Holy Prophet , in regards to the age of his wife Aisha at the time of their marriage. Many a Muslims are shocked when they hear of the narrations regarding her age (there are, of course, differing accounts but I am talking about the accounts which age her fairly her young, at around 6 when the marriage took place and 9 at the time of consummation). Many non-Muslims try to raise this as an issue to malign the Prophet as immoral and a man who is controlled by carnal desires - I am not even going to mention the names they call him because of how lowly they are.

This is why I decided to give a few points which helped me out on this matter, mainly the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her), when she was married. Although I, myself, am not really sure and do not have a concrete view on what really was Aisha's age at the time of the marriage because I have seen conflicting theories and I can't seem to decide which one is right, at least, not at the moment. I did, however, come up with something that makes me very comfortable, even if she was 9 at the time of consummation, as those who like to malign the Prophet would like and I would like to share this with you.

Before I delve into the point which occurred to me, I want to give an example. I remember a member of Shiachat creating a thread recently, explaining how his/her (I don't want to give too many clues about the identity of that person because the member may not like it) father had this addiction for pornography and how he overcame it. One of the major reasons this person gave for his/her father leaving this nasty habit was that he could not accept his daughter doing "something silly with stupid men" and, so, the women in those magazines/videos were also the daughters of someone and if he disliked his daughters doing such acts, he should also take into account that these women were also the daughters of someone. Now, the only reason I brought up this whole thing was to show one thing: in these cases of immorality, no matter how vile and immoral the person is, he/she would still be very uncomfortable with his own daughters performing the acts of indecency that he was so used to. The point, in a nutshell, is that a person may do all sorts of morally corrupt actions but when it comes to their own children, they don't like the idea of their own children doing those acts, no matter how much of it they, themselves, do it.

Coming to the Prophet , the thing I want to point out is that, according to the Shi'i narrations, the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her) at the time of marriage was 9 (according to the Sunni narrations, she was a bit more older, at around 11, but would still be considered a child by the standards of those who try to malign the Prophet and, so, the age we take does not matter - she was a "child" at that time). It is said that she had her first-born when she was 10 and, so, it is reasonable to assume that the marriage was consummated when she was still 9, or at most, 10. Now, if the Prophet was an indecent man who married Aisha at such a young age because of whatever reasons the opponents give, trying to make it look like immoral, I want to ask, keeping in mind the example I gave above, even if he was so immoral, why would he let his daughter also marry at approximately the same age as his marriage was consummated with Aisha? Even the most vile person would not allow his daughter to undergo oppression, which is what they say the Prophet marriage to Aisha was, to Aisha.

The Prophet 's decision to let his own daughter marry at this "young" age clearly shows that he did not find it immoral for a woman to marry at this age and, therefore, he cannot be criticised regarding his marriage to Aisha. The concept of morality he had did not make it immoral to marry a 9 year old and, so, we cannot use our standards on him! I wonder why those modernists who even support homosexuality simply on the premise of multiculturalism, tolerance and accepting the differences within cultures are so eager to attack the Prophet when the same reasons apply to his case?

Some do try and purport that the concept of morality in his time was different but his actions, being those of a Prophet, should be moral for all ages and times. This is, perhaps, the most ludicrous arguement one could make in this regard. There are two very basic flaws in such an arguement:

1. He is the Prophet of Allah , the Messenger of God who teaches us what God deems right and wrong and, so, morality should be predicated upon his commands and actions. We should appraise the morality of our actions using him as the model and not the other way round, evaluating his actions on our conceptions of morality. Such a thing is extremely outrageous and ridiculous because according to social dynamics, the what is perceived as moral or immoral with society is always changing and, so, we cannot judge his actions on a scale that is not even constant. He is the yardstick and, so, we can't judge the yardstick based on the specimen because that is totally opposite logic!

2. Like I have said above, conceptions of morality are always changing within societies and, so, we can't expect someone's actions to fulfill the requirements of all these differing concepts. Sometimes, we may find the conception of what is moral regarding a certain issue being contradictory to what is conceived as moral in another society. How can we expect - or, indeed, ask - a person to be moral using both definitions when, obviously, they are antithetical?

Insha'Allah, I have been helpful, clear and objective in my reasoning and have not hurt anyone!

May Allah (SWT) bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance, increase our knowledge and Imaan and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and the Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, verily, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners, except in Allah (SWT) .

[Pindar]

(Original post by Alpharius)
It was different back then, but he cannot (as a result) be considered a timeless role-model. He evidently did not have divinely inspired morals, and if anyone argues he did, I want nothing to do with them or their God. There's a register for those people.

Your morality has only been around for what? A few decades at best. Then in a few more decades again, it will have changed.

But God must have YOUR morality? If there is a God he's not going to have the same morality you happened to pick up in the beginning part of the 21st century when he's been around for aeons.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(Original post by Alpharius)
If Mohammed was alive today and did that, he would be a pedophile. He's not alive today.

It was different back then, but he cannot (as a result) be considered a timeless role-model. He evidently did not have divinely inspired morals, and if anyone argues he did, I want nothing to do with them or their God. There's a register for those people.

That does sound blunt, but thats the implication of calling him a timeless role-model. The analogy with Ghengis Khan earlier in the thread was a good one.

This thread has been done to death.

EDIT: Haters can't handle the truth.

I would like you to see my post above, in which I discuss whether, to be a timeless model, he has to be to fit as moral to all our standards or whether we should fit to his standards. I have talked about this in a bit more detail in my post above...

[Alpharius]

(Original post by Khadim uz Zahra)
I would like you to see my post above, in which I discuss whether, to be a timeless model, he has to be to fit as moral to all our standards or whether we should fit to his standards. I have talked about this in a bit more detail in my post above...

I can sum up that massive novel in a sentence;

You sanction paedophilia.

(Original post by Stefan1991)
Your morality has only been around for what? A few decades at best. Then in a few more decades again, it will have changed.

But God must have YOUR morality? If there is a God he's not going to have the same morality you happened to pick up in the beginning part of the 21st century when he's been around for aeons.

So your God finds paedophilia moral?

The very fact that you are defending it is disgraceful.

Thank **** there is no evidence of your Gods existence. What a monster that would be.

[Muslim.]

(Original post by Alpharius)
If Mohammed was alive today and did that, he would be a pedophile. He's not alive today.

It was different back then, but he cannot (as a result) be considered a timeless role-model. He evidently did not have divinely inspired morals, and if anyone argues he did, I want nothing to do with them or their God. There's a register for those people.

That does sound blunt, but thats the implication of calling him a timeless role-model. The analogy with Ghengis Khan earlier in the thread was a good one.

This thread has been done to death.

EDIT: Haters can't handle the truth.

You're basing this on a false premise - namely that of Aisha being aged 9 at the time of their marriage. Although their are a few ahadith (Islamic sources) that do state this explicitly, this allegation can be debunked easily by combining various other ahadith which state the following:

- Aisha had an older sister called Asma.
- Asma was 10 years older than Aisha.
- Asma died 73 years after the HIJRA (the start point of the Islamic calendar), at the age of 100
- The Prophet, upon whom we wish peace, married Aisha 1 year after Hijra.
- Simple maths then goes onto conclude that:

• At the time of Hijra, Asma was 27.
• At the time of Hijra, Aisha was 17.
• The Prophet married Aisha one year after Hijra, so she was 18 at the time of marriage.

Don't rule out Islam because of some misconceptions. The ahadith are not pure and not perfect like the Qur'an is as they have not been perfectly preserved. Based on this we must use historical analysis to conclude what is and what isn't correct. Few stand-alone ahadith state she was 9, but when we combing many authenticated ahadith, we can conclude that no, in fact she was 18.

Hope I've cleared this up!

[Alpharius]

(Original post by Muslim.)
You're basing this on a false premise - namely that of Aisha being aged 9 at the time of their marriage. Although their are a few ahadith (Islamic sources) that do state this explicitly, this allegation can be debunked easily by combining various other ahadith which state the following:

- Aisha had an older sister called Asma.
- Asma was 10 years older than Aisha.
- Asma died 73 years after the HIJRA (the start point of the Islamic calendar), at the age of 100
- The Prophet, upon whom we wish peace, married Aisha 1 year after Hijra.
- Simple maths then goes onto conclude that:

• At the time of Hijra, Asma was 27.
• At the time of Hijra, Aisha was 17.
• The Prophet married Aisha one year after Hijra, so she was 18 at the time of marriage.

Don't rule out Islam because of some misconceptions. The ahadith are not pure and not perfect like the Qur'an is as they have not been perfectly preserved. Based on this we must use historical analysis to conclude what is and what isn't correct. Few stand-alone ahadith state she was 9, but when we combing many authenticated ahadith, we can conclude that no, in fact she was 18.

Hope I've cleared this up!

Well, if you're right, that's fine. The vast majority of muslim scholars say she was 6 at the age of marriage, so who do we go with...

I don't care.

As for ruling out Islam, as a religion, it is based on faith, not evidence. As a student of science, every religion has been ruled out as false in my eyes.