[generaljonny]

(Original post by Muslim.)
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah".
- Embryological Professor Keith Moore

I wonder who to go with... some random person from TSR or a professor in embryology.. :P

So what? He's the only embryologist who is saying that and most disagree with him. PZ Myers certainly does. Muslims keep on invoking Keith Moores name as if they've won the argument but science is a field full of many different experts and so incessantly repeating an embryologists name doesn't win you the point.

[Xotol]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
- The orthodox view has always been that the Qur'an does not and never has negated established realities.

I have an issue with the phrase 'established realities'. For example:

Now stick to the topic, and remember "established reality" meaning the binary conclusions based upon reality, for instance the world is round or it is flat, no dispute.

It is not usually accurate to limit reality to the boolean sense of the word. Asking the question 'is the world round or flat' ignores the 'established reality' that the earth is neither flat nor perfectly round - it is an oblate spheroid with a slight difference in its equatorial and polar diameters. In other words, it is horribly vague at the very least and creates a false dichotomy by ignoring the other options. Depending on how 'scientific' you really want to be, it is possible to show that the Qur'an is inaccurate in its portrayal of the earth as an 'ostrich egg' or whatever else the meaning of the verse is meant to be. I realise that the Qur'an is not meant to be a book of science, but when you say that the Qur'an does not 'contradict an established reality', it begs the question of how rigorous the definition of an 'established reality' that Hamza Tzortzis uses is in terms of science.

Furthermore, established realities or facts can quite easily be shown to be wrong when new data is put forward. In other words, established realities are not as robust as you might think. For example, we currently believe that the sun converts hydrogen into helium - this could be put forward as an established reality by your definition (does the sun convert hydrogen into helium - true or false?). However, it is possible that next week, new data is found that shows that hydrogen is actually converted into a new element we have never seen before that is, for all intents and purposes, very similar to helium. Thus, the established reality is wrong! Is it possible that the earth is not an oblate spheroid? Of course, the conclusion that the earth is round could just be a photographic optical illusion. This all means that science does not deal with proof.

Other things like the "Big Bang" theory, although relatively conclusive are not established facts. ^[1]

In other words, theories are not established realities, but observed facts are. Okay, let's run with that (even though a theory is the highest level reached in biology as it brings together a lot of established realities together and provides an EXPLANATION).

Human evolution, though, is an established reality because all of the evidence overwhemingly points in its favour. Just as every other organism has experienced evolution (and this has been conclusively shown through fossil records and molecular evidence), humans have too (molecular evidence fits in line with every other organism). Don't mistake the theory of evolution (mechanism of natural selection) with the fact of evolution (the change in genes over time). The fact is, there is nothing currently put forward that overrides the evidence for this occurrence. Thus, human evolution is an established reality. Could it be wrong? Of course, just like I showed you with my previous example of the sun - science does not deal with proof.

As for the expansion theory, there's no problem in believe this is mentioned in the Qur'an.

A correct translation on the expansion of the Universe in the Quran - ....

If we apply newer 'established reality' that the rate at which the universe is expanding is increasing, half of these translations contradict that because of the use of 'steadily'.

EDIT: I just looked at the title of this thread... sorry for being so off-topic.

[Alpharius]

(Original post by Stefan1991)
Ummm... wouldn't that suggest that it's actually you who's not getting the point?



Again, you are missing the point. Whether or whether not God sanctions paedophilia, there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing 'disgraceful' with defending love or attraction.

Again, you are only vehemently against paedophilia because in the last few years it's become a major taboo, showing that you simply follow the crowd and have no control over your own beliefs, you believe things simply because that's the norm and without evidence. You treat morals as some sort of fashion statement.

Yes there is. You're sounding more monsterous by the minute.

Are you saying that if you had a 5 year old daughter and she had sex a 50 year old, that would be fine? A child that is not old enough to knowingly consent, therefore raped. But in your eyes, that's fine.

As for "last few decades," even if this was true (it's more like century in Europe), it shows that times have changed, we have advanced our morality, improved upon it.

At the time of Mohammed, it was almost the norm for girls to marry young to older men, indisputable. Evidently Mohammed is not a role-model for all time if his teaching/actions are now looked down upon in disgust by society.

Morality moves on and improves. Fundamental Muslims (such as you and those that are defending Mohammed's actions in this thread) want our morality to stay in the iron age.

[Pindar]

(Original post by Alpharius)
Yes there is. You're sounding more monsterous by the minute.

Are you saying that if you had a 5 year old daughter and she had sex a 50 year old, that would be fine? A child that is not old enough to knowingly consent, therefore raped. But in your eyes, that's fine.

As for "last few decades," even if this was true (it's more like century in Europe), it shows that times have changed, we have advanced our morality, improved upon it.

At the time of Mohammed, it was almost the norm for girls to marry young to older men, indisputable. Evidently Mohammed is not a role-model for all time if his teaching/actions are now looked down upon in disgust by society.

Morality moves on and improves. Fundamental Muslims (such as you and those that are defending Mohammed's actions in this thread) want our morality to stay in the iron age.

First of all, paedophilia is an attraction. Not a sexual act. So you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Secondly, no, a 5 year old girl cannot physically compensate an adult penis without being harmed. Again, as i've already reiterated, I am against causing harm. Something can only be "immoral" if it causes harm.

The idea that we have "advanced" our morality is a false notion, morality simply changes, it is hubris is think it somehow advances and we are the most superior in our morality. That is the mistake every culture and generation makes. So don't be so arrogant. There is nothing logical about your morality.

[KimKallstrom]

(Original post by nizam.clt)
Below is from http://debatebasedonscriptures.blogs...9-part-22.html

"If you are anxious for leadership, we are prepared to declare you our leader, if you need riches, we would collect for you an enormous amount of wealth that will suffice not only for you but even for your descendants; if you are impelled by sexual urge,you may chose ten beautiful damsels out of the whole tribe of Quraish. The Holy Prophet kept silent and did not utter a word." - Ibn Hisham, quoted by Imam Qurtubi at Quran 41:1


- These were the offers that the opponents put before prophet Mohammad, to stop calling people to The True Worship of One God.
- These were the offers that the opponents put before prophet Mohammad, long before his second marriage with the 55+ year old widow.


Criticism Without Any Knowledge


People who scandalize the marriage of prophet Mohammad with Aisha, only knows the standards of material lust. They areignorant of The Principles and The Etiquette of prophet Mohammad.


- They are ignorant on the mission of the marriage between Prophet Mohammad and Aisha.
- They are ignorant on what her parents said on her marriage occasion.
- They are ignorant on what her neighbours and people said on her marriage occasion.
- ...
- They are ignorant of The Great Personality of Aisha made by prophet Mohammad.


What all they know is -


- Whenever they hear the marriage of a young girl they soon remember the material lust.
- Whenever they hear the marriage of a young girl they soon remember the material world and its benefits.

...


What Aisha said On Prophet Mohammad


A very long story in short : -


One


Aishasaid, "The Quran". This was the answer from Aisha when she was asked about the conduct of prophet Mohammad.


- This two-word answer fully encompasses - who he was, by his word.
- This two-word answer fully testifies - who he was, by his action.


...

In order for you to understand what and who prophet Mohammad was, you need to checkout what Aisha herself said about him, before you take conclusions from the ignorant people of 21st century.

...

Yeah but Natascha Kampusch still loves the paedophile who entrapped her. It doesn't matter.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Stefan1991)
First of all, paedophilia is an attraction. Not a sexual act. So you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Secondly, no, a 5 year old girl cannot physically compensate an adult penis without being harmed. Again, as i've already reiterated, I am against causing harm. Something can only be "immoral" if it causes harm.

The idea that we have "advanced" our morality is a false notion, morality simply changes, it is hubris is think it somehow advances and we are the most superior in our morality. That is the mistake every culture and generation makes. So don't be so arrogant. There is nothing logical about your morality.

So you beleive that Mohamedian morality of 49 y/o men having sex with 9 y/o girls is actually superior to our own modern morality, and so we should all be practicing that today?

[Pindar]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
So you beleive that Mohamedian morality of 49 y/o men having sex with 9 y/o girls is actually superior to our own modern morality, and so we should all be practicing that today?

What do you mean our own modern morality? Who are you speaking for?
Our own modern morality is that the immorality of an act rests on whether it causes harm to a sentient being as expressed by contemporary philosophers.
Your bizarre morality has no basis in rational explanation.

[cyfer]

I highly doubt she was over the age of 14, considering acceptable age for reproduction back then

[abdiz12]

The OP is a troll, this topic has been beaten to death. His other account is ideas4life he is known to be an Islamophobe.

[kopite493]

(Original post by IdeasForLife)
People (especially critics) always point out she was 6-9 year old when she was married to the Prophet, as a muslim I really did believe them for a while and really thought upon this thinking basically "WTF"
but since then I have found websites which give well other sources, saying her age was different sometimes 12, sometimes 14, and sometimes 17-18.

http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html

Have a look at this site, I know it is written by a muslim so critics will probably rub it off as bias or something.
This is not an attempt to make you believe she was older or younger, this is just to show some people there are other sources then the ones critics normally state.
However the main point of this is to show people there other accounts of her age other then the 6-9 year old ones which Critics love to mention.


My conclusion - I don't know what her age was and seeing the amount of sources I have decided against agreeing on an age since the sources just contradict each other, and the only way to know which one is correct is if we were alive at the time and witnessed it.

Thanks for reading.

clicked link read the doctors name closed link

hes obviously gona defend his religion (or the religion of his for fathers)

[Dranzer]

You guys aren't all that cultured are you

A lot of you come across as Islamaphobes, well ARE.

I'm irreligious, but I would give a good sound logical explanation, but this is the internet where people rarely listen to each other and merely try to insult each other

Oh - by the way Indo-Chinese is a well known racist/islamaphobe ^^

You should read a bit of Lesley Hazleton - honestly the truth is the Qur'an can not be properly translated back into English.
It's a really problematic read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g


It really is true - it's very easy to misquote the Qu'ran, or put it out of context, as almost nobody seems to read it. Even muslims don't read it, it's pretty funny. Many Muslims falsely believe that the Qu'ran is against evolution, sadly for them many muslim scholars point out that Evolution is completely compatible with Islam. It's insanely weird you people are so freaked out by young marriages if you so called morality is nothing more than the tinker bell effect an in reality is nothing more than a figment of human imagination. (I'm putting aside the reason Muhammed indeed did Marry her, which weren't at all sexual in nature which most Islamaphobes would want you to believe). Many argue that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr; the strengthening of ties commonly served as a basis for marriage in Arabian culture.

Child marriages such as this were relatively common in Bedouin societies at the time, and remain common in some societies even today. British scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West.

Muhammad's nine marriages were depicted purely as political unions rather than sexual unions. In particular, Muhammad's unions with Aisha and Hafsah associated him with two of the most significant leaders of the early Muslim community, Aisha's and Hafsah's fathers.

There is also no evidence that Muhammed ever had sex with Aisha. I would like to point out most people enjoy spreading uneducated bull****, and as most people are uneducated on this matter and enjoy quoting poorly translated verses. To be honest it can only really be read in arabic due to the the use of language and word play which by translating we lose ^^

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Stefan1991)
What do you mean our own modern morality? Who are you speaking for?
Our own modern morality is that the immorality of an act rests on whether it causes harm to a sentient being as expressed by contemporary philosophers.
Your bizarre morality has no basis in rational explanation.

seeing as we live in this country im speaking about modern uk moraltiy - you have suggessted there is nothing wrong with a 49 y/o man having sex with 9 y/o girls becuase it wa mohammeds morality which was fine - i asked do you think we should copy him here?

[Cattty]

(Original post by nizam.clt)
I didn't say that.

What I said first is -

They are ignorant of The Principles and The Etiquette of prophet Mohammad.

• They are ignorant of The Marriage Principles
• They are ignorant of The Married Life Principles
• They are ignorant of The Morality Principles
• They are ignorant of The Family Principles
• They are ignorant of The Family Etiquette
• They are ignorant of The Behavioral Etiquette
• ...
• They are ignorant of The Financial Principles
• They are ignorant of The Charity Principles
• They are ignorant of The Righteousness Principles
• They are ignorant of The Manners Principles
• They are ignorant of The Patience Principles
• ...
• They are ignorant of The Life Principles
• ...

About these, I said first, that people are ignorant.


This is what I said next that you like people are ignorant about.

If you have read this, then it is there that -

They greeted her with the words, "For good and for happiness, may all be well."

For you like people, it is for the "profit (haha get it?)" that one does such a marriage and that is why it is said -

- Whenever they hear the marriage of a young girl they soon remember the material world and its benefits.

But for her parents, it was not for any such material benefits that they married their 9 year old girl to Mohammad The Messenger of God and that is why it is said -

- The parents of Aisha were well aware of The Great Mission of her marriage to prophet Mohammad.

For Aisha, it was not for any such material benefits that she married Mohammad The Messenger of God and hence one can see in their life -

Aisha said, "I used to see the new moon, then the new moon, then the new moon, i. e. three moons in two months, and fire was not kindled in the house of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)." - Imam Bukhari.

- Their life was not a cosy life.
- Their life was that of poverty.



Firstly, it was not fulfilling the material lust that Mohammad The Messenger of God married a 9 year girl. It was for a Great Mission.

That is why it is said -

- They are ignorant on the mission of the marriage between Prophet Mohammad and Aisha.

That is why it is said -

- They are ignorant of The Great Personality of Aisha made by prophet Mohammad.

Secondly, if Mohammad The Messenger of God had intercourse with Aisha then he had it on the right time because he had the best sense of morality than you and that is why it is said -

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he had that great sense of morality.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he had protected the chastity of women.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he firmly stood against any kind of prostitution.

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then he allowed, what should be allowed and prevented, what should be prevented.
- ...

- If prophet Mohammad had lived in a society by having more than one wife, then it was based on these kind of 100s of Principles of Morality.


This indoctrination is as a result of the replacement of ignorance with that of knowledge and that is why it is said there -

"Hence, the marriage of prophet Mohammad with Aisha was A Great Tribute for The People of Knowledge."

wow, you certainly go to lengths to condone muhammads dirty mind.
lets put this into todays context- some cult leader claims to be a prophet, he brainwashes followers, people are willing to give anything to him, their life, their children, etc because he has convinced them that is what god wants.

examples of this-
- the people's temple- people committed mass sucicide, and killed their own children because their 'prophet' told them to
- the children of god- their leader wanted them to breed more members for his cult, so people had to breed with young children as soon as their were physically capable of breeding, and 'practised' on younger children.

muhammad himself was hungry for power, wealth, social status, the apperance of holiness and authority. he had no respect for women and their decisions

'Muhammad said: “If a man fabricated the acceptance of a woman to marry her by bringing two false witnesses to confirm the marriage, then if the judge confirmed that marriage, although the man and the two witnesses knew that the woman did not accept the marriage herself, the marriage is to be considered legal and valid” 15' (http://www.myspear.org/quran_stoning_women.html)

paedophiles put themselves in a position of trust. The pedophile believes that he is in love with (or simply loves) the child. No amount of denials, chastising, threats, and even outright hostile actions convince the erotic-maniac that the child is not in love with him. He knows better and will make the world see the light as well. He interprets everything the child does (or refrains from doing) as coded messages confessing to and conveying the child's interest in and eternal devotion to the pedophile and to the "relationship".

the quran was the word of a man described above, it is very interesting how many parents, educated people, etc have been convinced that what this paedophile believed was right.

as i said before, mind control is so powerful, you could convince parents to give up their child, groom the child so they belive they love the predatory paedo and convince other followers that what he is doing is right.

if a middle aged man today had sex with a 9 year old child- would you make excuses to condon his actions?

[nizam.clt]

(Original post by Cattty)
wow, you certainly go to lengths to condone muhammads dirty mind.
lets put this into todays context- some cult leader claims to be a prophet, he brainwashes followers, people are willing to give anything to him, their life, their children, etc because he has convinced them that is what god wants.

examples of this-
- the people's temple- people committed mass sucicide, and killed their own children because their 'prophet' told them to
- the children of god- their leader wanted them to breed more members for his cult, so people had to breed with young children as soon as their were physically capable of breeding, and 'practised' on younger children.

muhammad himself was hungry for power, wealth, social status, the apperance of holiness and authority. he had no respect for women and their decisions

'Muhammad said: “If a man fabricated the acceptance of a woman to marry her by bringing two false witnesses to confirm the marriage, then if the judge confirmed that marriage, although the man and the two witnesses knew that the woman did not accept the marriage herself, the marriage is to be considered legal and valid” 15' (http://www.myspear.org/quran_stoning_women.html)

paedophiles put themselves in a position of trust. The pedophile believes that he is in love with (or simply loves) the child. No amount of denials, chastising, threats, and even outright hostile actions convince the erotic-maniac that the child is not in love with him. He knows better and will make the world see the light as well. He interprets everything the child does (or refrains from doing) as coded messages confessing to and conveying the child's interest in and eternal devotion to the pedophile and to the "relationship".

the quran was the word of a man described above, it is very interesting how many parents, educated people, etc have been convinced that what this paedophile believed was right.

as i said before, mind control is so powerful, you could convince parents to give up their child, groom the child so they belive they love the predatory paedo and convince other followers that what he is doing is right.

if a middle aged man today had sex with a 9 year old child- would you make excuses to condon his actions?

Almighty God said in His Glorious Quran -

"And the servants of the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth with Dignity and Humility, and when the foolish address them they say; "Peace''. - Quran 25:63

Peace.

[nizam.clt]

One of My Friend Commented -

"Some might have viewed the marriage of Muhammad and A'isha as an exceptional marriage, but then the two partners were exceptional people. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the last of the Prophets and the best of creation; and A'isha was a very intelligent and observant young girl with a very good memory." - Imam Ibn Kathir.


- This is why prophet Mohammad chose Aisha who was at 9.

A few questions in mind...

1. Why cant he wait for next 9 - 10 years ?
2. Is it possible to acquire her wisdom only through marrying her ? cant he arrange a marriage with his son or someone younger ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friend


Thank you very much for your comments.


>>1. Why cant he wait for next 9 - 10 years ?

First and foremost, after 8 years of the marriage, prophet Mohammad passed away. Hence, there was little scope of waiting for 9 - 10 years. Here comes the religious answer.

Religiously Speaking

The one and only answer on why prophet Mohammad chose a 9 year old girl in marriage, is that, it was A Command from Al Mighty God. Almighty God, being the Knower of the seen and the unseen, the past and the future, dictated that the marriage should happen exactly when it did happen.


Had prophet Mohammad been acting on his own desires, the marriage itself wouldn't have happened, but it was not the case.

>>1. Why cant he wait for next 9 - 10 years ?

Secondly, as I said, it was not just for another marriage, prophet Mohammad married the 9 year old girl. If it was for just another marriage, he had a very good offer before him, by his enemies, long before his second marriage with the 55+ year old widow.

Simply speaking, he couldn't wait for the next 9 - 10 years ( i.e. after his death ) because

- It was for The Delegation of The Principles and Etiquettes of prophet Mohammad, for the future generation that he married the 9 year old girl named Aisha."

He did not have the time to wait for next 9 - 10 years ( i.e. after his death ) because -

- The marriage was not for fulfilling the material lust.
- The marriage was for fulfilling one of The Divine Destiny of Aishaas The Most Knowledgeable Scholar of her time of 40 years.

>>2. Is it possible to acquire her wisdom only through marrying her ? cant he arrange a marriage with his son or someone younger ?

Yes, it was only possible to acquire what she acquired, through marriage and that is why it is said -

"If there exists a relation under the sky, by which one can clearly measure the personality of another person, it is The Marriage Relation."

That is why it is said -

A. She grew into womanhood,

- She had to be a wife of prophet Mohammad in order for her to be brought-up by the prophet.

It is said -

B. She remembered all that she saw

- She had to be a wife of prophet Mohammad in order for her to saw what she saw.

It is said -

C. She was a witness of so much of all that took place.

- She had to be the wife, in order for her to witness The Life of Prophet Mohammad.

>>2. Is it possible to acquire her wisdom only through marrying her ?

Islam put forwards a Completely Perfect Guideline to all the corners of life or at least it claims so. In that guideline, there are certain things that can be learned only by becoming a wife.

For instance, consider a woman in her menstrual periods. Prophet Mohammad addressed this very state of mankind with utmost respect, dignity and seriousness, through Aisha who was one of his wife.

Lesson of Menstrual Period -1

Aisha said: "While having the menses, I used to eat from a piece of meat and give it to the Prophet who would eat from the same place I ate from. I used to have sips of a drink and would then give the cup to the Prophet who would place his mouth where I placed my mouth.'' - Imam Muslim.

Look at the narration. Prophet Mohammad is teaching this humanity on how to treat a wife, in one of her difficult times. The above narration should also be well understood how different communities treated their women in periods.

"The Jews used to avoid their menstruating women, they would not eat, or even mingle with them in the house." - Imam Ahmed.

The Jews sidelined their wives at their difficult times; Prophet Mohammad brought close his wives and this is the lesson for a believer.

Lesson of Menstrual Period -2

Aisha said: "Allah's Messenger used to ask me to wash his hair while I was having the menses. He would lay on my lap and read the Qur'an while I was having the period.'' - Imam Muslim.

- He had a close proximity with his wives during their difficult times.
- He even performed religious activities like reading the Quran even by laying on the lap of his menstruating wife.

Lesson of Menstrual Period -3

Aisha said: "Allah's Messenger commanded me to fetch mats from the mosque. I said that I had menses. He remarked, 'Your menses are not on your hands'." - Imam Turmudi.

- Even though a women in her periods is not supposed to enter a mosque for prayers, Prophet Mohammad did not kept them away, completely.

Lesson of Menstrual Period - 4

Aisha said: "We set out with no intention of other that Hajj (The Pilgrimage). And when we were in Sharif, my menses came. The Messenger of Allah entered upon me while I was weeping and he said: 'Have your menses come ?' I said: 'Yes.' He dais: 'That is something that Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, has decreed fo the daughters of Adam. Do everything that the pilgrim in Ihram (the dress of pilgrimage) does, but do not circumambulate the House" - Imam An-Nasai

- During even the time of pilgrimage, prophet Mohammad took his wife with him.
- And when the decree of Almighty came for Aisha, he did sooth her and had done what could do for the pilgrimage to be acceptable before Almighty God.

Lesson of Menstrual Period -5

Aisha said: "Me and messenger of Allah slept inside a single blanket while I was in my period. ..." - Imam Abu Dawud.

- A wife in her periods should not be kept away from the bed just because of her nature.

There are again, other areas, guidelines to which are best reported by being a wife of prophet Mohammad. It includes -

- Guidelines on Suckling babies and its relationship.
- Guidelines on what should be done for the Wet Dreams of men.
- Guidelines on the rules and regulations of divorce, as the last resort.
- ...

The point is -

- Prophet Mohammad cannot wait for the next 9 - 10 years ( i.e. after his death), in order for him to teach these invaluable lessons for the mankind.
- Aisha had to be nothing more or less than a wife of prophet Mohammad, in order for her to report what she witnessed, for the future generation.

Regards
Nisam
Debate-based-on-scriptures-mail-19-part.21 - Info

[ct2k7]

Wasn't it acceptable for women to be married at younger ages? Yes it was.

[Elipsis]

(Original post by ct2k7)
Wasn't it acceptable for women to be married at younger ages? Yes it was.

Acceptable for normal people. Acceptable for people who have a direct line to speak to God, who are followed and copied by billions of people? Probably not...

[ct2k7]

(Original post by Elipsis)
Acceptable for normal people. Acceptable for people who have a direct line to speak to God, who are followed and copied by billions of people? Probably not...

Yet, he was human after all...

[Elipsis]

(Original post by ct2k7)
Yet, he was human after all...

Yeah, so don't dress like him, grow a beard like him, name your chilren after him, or say that he was the greatest man who ever lived. There are millions of people alive today who are more sinless and better people.

[ct2k7]

(Original post by Elipsis)
Yeah, so don't dress like him, grow a beard like him, name your chilren after him, or say that he was the greatest man who ever lived. There are millions of people alive today who are more sinless and better people.

Role model.