Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?
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Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?If Trotsky, rather than Stalin, had succeeded Lenin, would things have transpired differently? Would the public perception of Communism/Socialism be different?
Trotsky was an idealist but he seemed, at least to me, much much more rational & pure in his ideas & methods than Stalin...
Just curious. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Doesn't matter who took over, the perception would remain the same - especially since Trotsky, despite being more rational than Stalin, was still an orthodox marxist
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?I think people are missing the main difference between the two men; one wanted 'Communism in One Country' whilst one wanted 'International Communism' to keep the revolution going. I think if the latter was in power then the mistrust that was seen after the Second World War would have been far higher and probably before 1945
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?So you are saying Trotskyite marxism would have had the same effects of Stalin's state socialism?(Original post by amirlad)
Doesn't matter who took over, the perception would remain the same - especially since Trotsky, despite being more rational than Stalin, was still an orthodox marxist
Or are you suggesting Stalin was a marxist? -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Stalin wanted europe under his statist beaurocracy.(Original post by crocker710)
I think people are missing the main difference between the two men; one wanted 'Communism in One Country' whilst one wanted 'International Communism' to keep the revolution going. I think if the latter was in power then the mistrust that was seen after the Second World War would have been far higher and probably before 1945 -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Well thank-you for correcting my 5 years understanding of Stalinism, my dissertation area and all my advice I've given beforehand upon the subject on my Russian History thread ...(Original post by prog2djent)
Stalin wanted europe under his statist beaurocracy.Last edited by crocker710; 02-04-2012 at 00:01. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Under your immense an rigorous training in this area, do you think stalin was a marxist, or even a communist?(Original post by crocker710)
Well thank-you for correcting my 5 years understanding of Stalinism, my dissertation area and all my advice I've given beforehand upon the subject on my Russian History thread ...
And did stalin really have the whole world in his sights for 'communism'? -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Firstly; are you now retracting your previous statement or continuing with it? The only reason I brought up my background in the area is that you dismissed what I had to say without debate.(Original post by prog2djent)
Under your immense an rigorous training in this area, do you think stalin was a marxist, or even a communist?
And did stalin really have the whole world in his sights for 'communism'?
If you believed broadly in Thatcher's policies were you a Thatcherite? Was every Tory MP in the 1980's a Thatcherite therefore? If a Thatcherite was to disagree with certain policies and change them accordingly were they still broadly |Thatcher-Conservative? Was Lenin even a Marxist?
These are theoretical questions; the point stands that whatever you wish to define Stalinism as, just like Thatcherism, he was a lot closer to Communist and Marxism that the rest of Europe was at the time. We can get into a debate about the Utopian ideals of Communism and the impossibility of achieving it fully.
No. He didn't. Stalin focused on Russia and her territories. As I explained above Communism in One Country was Stalin's mantra (as much as I dislike Wikipedia here's a related article) -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Lenin was a state socialist.(Original post by crocker710)
Was Lenin even a Marxist?
These are theoretical questions; the point stands that whatever you wish to define Stalinism as, just like Thatcherism, he was a lot closer to Communist and Marxism that the rest of Europe was at the time. We can get into a debate about the Utopian ideals of Communism and the impossibility of achieving it fully.
No. He didn't. Stalin focused on Russia and her territories. As I explained above Communism in One Country was Stalin's mantra (as much as I dislike Wikipedia here's a related article)
Ironically I would say thatcher's quasi personal freedom and economic freedom are closer to post-prolatariat dictatorship marxism than stalinism, thatcher may have been opposed to the continuation of stalinism, but stalinism is essentially absolute statism, marx was not a statist and nor was thatcher (in some respects).
I know it sounds odd, but yes, I am saying thatcher was more like marx than stalin on economics and social grounds.
"Russia and her territories" entirely goes against socialism in one country, stalin was an imperialist. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Indeed. 'International Communism' would have been too costly to maintain and may well have resulted in the collapse of the fledgling USSR. However, if Trotsky had capitalised on the Great Depression as leader of the USSR, calling on workers of the world to revolt...who knows?(Original post by crocker710)
I think people are missing the main difference between the two men; one wanted 'Communism in One Country' whilst one wanted 'International Communism' to keep the revolution going. I think if the latter was in power then the mistrust that was seen after the Second World War would have been far higher and probably before 1945 -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?I can feel an interminable argument about Kronstadt coming on(Original post by Newbie123)
If Trotsky, rather than Stalin, had succeeded Lenin, would things have transpired differently? Would the public perception of Communism/Socialism be different?
Trotsky was an idealist but he seemed, at least to me, much much more rational & pure in his ideas & methods than Stalin...
Just curious.
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Ahhhhh, abstraction, lol(Original post by Tudball)
If the idea is flawed, it doesn't matter who implements it - the results will still be the same. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Wtf? Really, wtf?(Original post by prog2djent)
Lenin was a state socialist.
Ironically I would say thatcher's quasi personal freedom and economic freedom are closer to post-prolatariat dictatorship marxism than stalinism, thatcher may have been opposed to the continuation of stalinism, but stalinism is essentially absolute statism, marx was not a statist and nor was thatcher (in some respects).
I know it sounds odd, but yes, I am saying thatcher was more like marx than stalin on economics and social grounds.
"Russia and her territories" entirely goes against socialism in one country, stalin was an imperialist. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?Everyone remembers Stalin as being an evil man, and quite rightly! However this memory tends to make people synthesise a contrast between evil Communism under Stalin and non-evil Communism under the previous leaders. This is completely misleading as the old regime was almost as blood-thirsty as him, and even more blood-thirsty than the regime it replaced!
The earliest years of Russian Communism were completely brutal, a fact which is often overlooked. With Trotsky as its leader, the Red Army massacred (if my memory serves me correctly) around 10,000 sailors who revolted against the new government.
Trotsky was without question a far better Communist than Stalin ever was, but there is very little case to be made for him being a better human. I very much doubt if there would have been much difference at all under Trotsky's leadership: the same things would have happened, but the leader would have genuinely believed his excuses for them. If anything, this would probably make the modern perception of Communism even worse.
Edit: Got an extra 0 in there. 1,000.Last edited by MrHayden; 02-04-2012 at 19:11. Reason: (Significant) typo -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?The question we must ask ourselves here was Stalin a better leader then Lenin.
There are many arguments for and against here, but certainly the most famous quote of Stalin is that when he said "Either we catch up in 10 years or we will be overrun by capitalists" and saying this in 1931,it was almost prophetic, as ofc in 1941 the germans invaded
however he did kill many russians in order for these reforms so maybe he wasnt that good a leader after all.
as for Trotsky and answering this question, i think the perception of communism would change because people would see as a total failure due to trotskys policies rather than the general perception that it was a good idea, but could never be put into practice.
his ideas were even more flawed than stalin's- he would send the world into a world war earlier which would have meant we would have had to side with hitler- clearly a bad idea
his idea was to convert the whole world into a communist system-never was going to work, as you saw what happend to communism when stalin had the "soviet sphere of influence"-all the countrys rebelled.
tbh, the conclusion we can make from this is that communism can only work in one country, as it does today in isolated scenarios,-north korea and cuba. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?He was hardly a communist, yet leader of the Communist Party in Soviet Russia?(Original post by prog2djent)
Stalin was hardly a communist.
And if trotsky took over from lenis things would have gone worse in the short term. -
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Re: Would the perception of Communism have been different if Trotsky succeeded Lenin?I'd hardly say Communism works in DPR Korea & Cuba.(Original post by thetejmaster)
The question we must ask ourselves here was Stalin a better leader then Lenin.
There are many arguments for and against here, but certainly the most famous quote of Stalin is that when he said "Either we catch up in 10 years or we will be overrun by capitalists" and saying this in 1931,it was almost prophetic, as ofc in 1941 the germans invaded
however he did kill many russians in order for these reforms so maybe he wasnt that good a leader after all.
as for Trotsky and answering this question, i think the perception of communism would change because people would see as a total failure due to trotskys policies rather than the general perception that it was a good idea, but could never be put into practice.
his ideas were even more flawed than stalin's- he would send the world into a world war earlier which would have meant we would have had to side with hitler- clearly a bad idea
his idea was to convert the whole world into a communist system-never was going to work, as you saw what happend to communism when stalin had the "soviet sphere of influence"-all the countrys rebelled.
tbh, the conclusion we can make from this is that communism can only work in one country, as it does today in isolated scenarios,-north korea and cuba.
Socialism in one country was probably the greatest difference between the respective ideologies of Stalin & Trotsky, but whether Trotsky would have started a "world war" as such... That's debatable - as is your supposition that Britain would have had to side with Hitler.
