[Swindon]

Basically how fairytales were written, one man decided and sit down and create something magically (christianity) and then this book was found and re-written and editing hundreds of time until it was acceptable for the rest of society to read and follow.

[adamrules247]

(Original post by kingkongjaffa)
I have always had this debate and the conclusion I come to every time is that the bible was a series of journals and diaries written by the people at the time, explaining their lives.
obviously like Chinese whispers the more any one story is told it gets convoluted and ends up looking like the modern bible full of impossibilities designed to keep the stories interesting.

The problem is that this hypothesis, with regard to Christianity, has been long discredited. None of the earliest Christians, in their preaching, preached anything about Jesus moral teachings. They preached this: Jesus died, Jesus rose; from day one.

[cl_steele]

same as every other book in history has been written someone sat down with a pen/quill or what have you and started writing ... just happens this one is more fantastical than the rest.

[mczakk]

(Original post by adamrules247)
The problem is that this hypothesis, with regard to Christianity, has been long discredited. None of the earliest Christians, in their preaching, preached anything about Jesus moral teachings. They preached this: Jesus died, Jesus rose; from day one.

This is the problem with christianity, what was it before jesus? what was everybody on day one -1?

[adamrules247]

(Original post by mczakk)
This is the problem with christianity, what was it before jesus? what was everybody on day one -1?

Are you being serious? They were Jews. May I suggest a Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth Part 1 and 2 which should cover it for you.

[Good bloke]

(Original post by mczakk)
This is the problem with christianity, what was it before jesus? what was everybody on day one -1?

Roses are red,
Violets are bluish.
If it wasn't for Jesus
We'd all be Jewish.

[mczakk]

(Original post by adamrules247)
Are you being serious? They were Jews. May I suggest a Ratzinger's Jesus of Nazareth Part 1 and 2 which should cover it for you.

My point exactly, what was so wrong with being jewish that someone had to go and start a new religion which has marginalised the jews? anyway, what were people before they were jewish? would it not be reasonable to assume that if there was only one god, then he would have ensured that everyone on the planet which he created worshipped him and him alone, and in the same way?
Religion really is it's own worst enemy when it comes to try and justify itself!

[adamrules247]

(Original post by mczakk)
My point exactly, what was so wrong with being jewish that someone had to go and start a new religion which has marginalised the jews? anyway, what were people before they were jewish? would it not be reasonable to assume that if there was only one god, then he would have ensured that everyone on the planet which he created worshipped him and him alone, and in the same way?

There's nothing wrong with being Jewish and I don't get why you think there is anything wrong. Christianity wasn't a "new religion" and I fail to see why you think it is. It's actually a continuation of Judaism and many of the first Christian leaders were Jewish, the first Pope, St. Peter, was Jewish. What is far removed from the Judiaism of Jesus' day is the Judaism of today which is nearly totally unrecognisable; in much the same way Protestantism is theologically far removed from Catholicism. The rituals of the Catholic Church today all have their roots within Judaism. Read the works of Scott Hahn on this issue.

As for the whole "worshipped him and him alone, and in the same way?" point well this is true. Man seeks certain things outside of himself, truth, beauty, goodness among many. And indeed all religions have engaged in sacrafice of some kind up until the 16th Century with the Protestant Reformation. And indeed missionaries all over the world (St. Paul also reports it in one of his letters) constantly recount when they take Christianity to a distant nation they find the people sacraficing to a variety of gods but always have an altar to the side in which they sacrafice to the unknown God.

Religion really is it's own worst enemy when it comes to try and justify itself!

According to you.

[mczakk]

by its own nomenclature CHRISTianity could not have existed before christ,(father, son and holy ghost and all that) so it was a new religion.
i don't think that there is anything wrong with being jewish, nor did i say there was. I was merely asking why there had to be a new religion just because this jesus bloke had come along?

so i take it that the unknown god of which you speak must be the christian god? how about the peoples of a distant nation who had been sacrificing things to their gods for a few thousand years or so before the christian god even made the earth? sorry but whichever way you look at it, it just doesn't add up!

[adamrules247]

(Original post by mczakk)
by its own nomenclature CHRISTianity could not have existed before christ,(father, son and holy ghost and all that) so it was a new religion.

Nope. It's not a new religion. It's the fulfillment and continuation of Judaism. As I've already explained above and demonstarted how Christianity is closer to real Judaism than modern day Judaism is.

i don't think that there is anything wrong with being jewish, nor did i say there was. I was merely asking why there had to be a new religion just because this jesus bloke had come along?

I've already explained this. I seriously would buy those two Ratzinger books.

so i take it that the unknown god of which you speak must be the christian god?

I'm merely suggesting that even among those religions they still sought to reach into eternity looking for something beyond their own crude polytheism.

how about the peoples of a distant nation who had been sacrificing things to their gods for a few thousand years or so before the christian god even made the earth?

That doesn't even make sense.

sorry but whichever way you look at it, it just doesn't add up!

Well it clearly does. Two and two make four but I doubt you'd even accept that based upon the logic you've displayed thus far.

[mczakk]

(Original post by adamrules247)
Nope. It's not a new religion..

Yes it is, according to the bible, god created the heavens and the earth about 6000 years ago. As you have said, before christianity there was judaism, then christianity arose with the coming of christ. Therefore judaism has been around for 6000 years, and christianity for 2000. i think that makes it newer than judaism.

however, we know that 'modern' humans have been present on the earth for fifty thousand years, and many of them had religions, and deities which they worshipped. indeed many of these civilisations died out before your god even made the earth (according to your religion), and some have been around for much longer than christianity and are still going!

unfortunately you seem to be one of those people who looks at all the factual and historical evidence for the presence of civilisations on this earth, over many millenia, and dismisses it all because it's not written in your one book.

and then accuse me of being illogical!

[Nanometre]

There are many problems with the Bible, but perhaps the most pressing issue is the way it has been translated several times, and vital points have most likely been lost in translation. Therefore, are those Christians that take the Bible literally utterly misunderstanding the points that the original authors (whoever they were - a deluded cult seems most likely) had intended to make.

[adamrules247]

(Original post by mczakk)
Yes it is, according to the bible, god created the heavens and the earth about 6000 years ago.

Please find me the relevent passage. Shall I tell you. It's not in the Bible.

As you have said, before christianity there was judaism, then christianity arose with the coming of christ. Therefore judaism has been around for 6000 years,

No it hasn't. It's been around for about 4,000 at the max.

and christianity for 2000. i think that makes it newer than judaism.

Do you understand what Jesus is to Christians. Or what the Messiah is to the Jews? And why haven't you addressed any of my point relating to modern day Judaism.

however, we know that 'modern' humans have been present on the earth for fifty thousand years,

Actually it's closer to 100,000 years which is where Francis Collins puts it.

and many of them had religions, and deities which they worshipped. indeed many of these civilisations died out before your god even made the earth (according to your religion), and some have been around for much longer than christianity and are still going!

You are, of course, basing the age of the earth according to the Bible on totally made up figures.

unfortunately you seem to be one of those people who looks at all the factual and historical evidence for the presence of civilisations on this earth, over many millenia, and dismisses it all because it's not written in your one book.

Then you've obviously never encountered me on this forum before. I'm a passionate believer in the sciences and in rationality quite in line with the Angelic Doctor. In fact you're accusing me of believing in a heresy, sola scriptura, that my religion specifically condemns.

and then accuse me of being illogical!

Either that or a troll. I really don't know where you got the idea from that I believe the earth magically popped into existence 6,000 years ago and you're merely committing the fallacy of a straw man.

[mczakk]

damn, i'd bet on 25 posts before you accused me of committing a fallacy!


Oh i've come across you before, thats why i enjoy winding you up so much!

[Dalek1099]

(Original post by f1mad)
. They didn't exist back then .

I'm pretty sure they did,they definitely had pens 79 AD because Vesuvius's eruption was wrote about and that isn't too far off when it had to be written and it could have been written by people,who thought certain events happened centuries earlier through rumours

[f1mad]

(Original post by Dalek1099)
I'm pretty sure they did,they definitely had pens 79 AD because Vesuvius's eruption was wrote about and that isn't too far off when it had to be written and it could have been written by people,who thought certain events happened centuries earlier through rumours

Err somebody had already pointed that out...

We don't need an echo in here.

[Llamageddon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

if in doubt... google it.

[Laura393]

(Original post by f1mad)
. They didn't exist back then .

Um... they did have pen, that's how the romans did the cencus...

[f1mad]

(Original post by Laura393)
Um... they did have pen, that's how the romans did the cencus...

Did you bother reading the thread, like the previous poster who quoted me?

Guess not.

(Original post by f1mad)
Err somebody had already pointed that out...

We don't need an echo in here.

Oh and there's no such thing as a "cencus".

[Laura393]

(Original post by f1mad)
Did you bother reading the thread, like the previous poster who quoted me?

Guess not.



Oh and there's no such thing as a "cencus".

Sorry census, but the spelling mistake didn't take away the meaning of what I said, and they mentioned Vesuvius, I mentioned the Roman cencus which first took place during the time of where Jesus was born, explaining why they had to travel to Joseph's birthplace of Bethlehem