[Newbie123]

Do you think socialism will inevitably succeed capitalism?

If not, why?

Bit random, and probably far too simplistic, but... Oh well.

[Dux_Helvetica]

The fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union have proven that Communism is not a viable economic system. But Socialism/Marxism/Communism comes in many different shades and for every failed attempt at any of those three, there will be plenty of baying Leftists saying that it 'was not done properly'. On the other hand, free-market capitalism has a very bad reputation now after the foolish actions of a few that led to the current financial crisis.

However, China is booming economically - and they practice a system that is no longer used in the west: State Capitalism. I foresee this model being adapted in various bastardised forms around the world as people grow disillusioned with free-market principles.

[Newbie123]

(Original post by DontJudge)
I think the recent UK riots, was a certain form of Revolution.

? Are you suggesting that there were Marxist undertones to the events?

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

Marxism is a flawed utopian ideology which is based on a misreading of history and humanity. The attempt to impose it has caused immense human suffering for no significant benefit. On a different scale, within the academic discipline of history we are still undoing the damage that marxist interpretations have done to our understanding of the past, even as they come across as refreshingly positivist in the face of the ludcirous postmodernist assault on the very foundations of the discipline.

[Newbie123]

(Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
Marxism is a flawed utopian ideology which is based on a misreading of history and humanity. The attempt to impose it has caused immense human suffering for no significant benefit. On a different scale, within the academic discipline of history we are still undoing the damage that marxist interpretations have done to our understanding of the past, even as they come across as refreshingly positivist in the face of the ludcirous postmodernist assault on the very foundations of the discipline.

Hmm, I disagree. I believe Communism is an ideal that cannot ever be, realistically, achieved, but I do think that a socialist (to an extent) system could potentially work, if implemented/introduced correctly...

I don't think that any of the attempts at forming a Communist government have been authentic enough for us to condemn Marxism as an inherently flawed ideology; after all, Marx predicted that capitalist society would naturally be replaced due to growing class tension, and as such, any forceful attempt to introduce socialism would be counter-intuitive to Marxist ideas.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by DontJudge)
Says the person from Oxford.

Care to explain the relevance of your observation?

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by Newbie123)
Hmm, I disagree. I believe Communism is an ideal that cannot ever be, realistically, achieved, but I do think that a socialist (to an extent) system could potentially work, if implemented/introduced correctly

Socialism can of course survive for as long as it takes to consume the wealth created under freer economic systems, and after that for as long as the authoritarian structures that maintain it can hang on.

(Original post by Newbie123)
I don't think that any of the attempts at forming a Communist government have been authentic enough for us to condemn Marxism as an inherently flawed ideology; after all, Marx predicted that capitalist society would naturally be replaced due to growing class tension, and as such, any forceful attempt to introduce socialism would be counter-intuitive to Marxist ideas.

And there you highlight one of the misreadings of history that underpinned Marxism, which the 20th century has dispelled.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by DontJudge)
May I ask how you are so certain that this theory is not relevant at all?

What are you talking about? How does this explain why you brought up my location?

[Newbie123]

(Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
And there you highlight one of the misreadings of history that underpinned Marxism, which the 20th century has dispelled.

? The Communist Manifesto states that capitalism will not prove to be a viable, long-term structure - due to the class disparity - and that socialism will inevitably have to be introduced to avoid this conflict.

What exactly has the 20th Century dispelled?

[Kibalchich]

(Original post by Newbie123)
Do you think socialism will inevitably succeed capitalism?

If not, why?

Bit random, and probably far too simplistic, but... Oh well.

What do you mean by Marxism? The writings of Marx? Marxist-Leninism? Autonomous Marxism? What?

[Newbie123]

(Original post by Kibalchich)
What do you mean by Marxism? The writings of Marx? Marxist-Leninism? Autonomous Marxism? What?

I mean just plainly Marxism - so out of the options you gave, the writings of Marx.

Just curious about people's opinions on Marx's analysis of society - and whether or not his suggestions can realistically be implemented.

[Kibalchich]

(Original post by Newbie123)
I mean just plainly Marxism - so out of the options you gave, the writings of Marx.

Just curious about people's opinions on Marx's analysis of society - and whether or not his suggestions can realistically be implemented.

Personally I think his analysis of capitalism in Capital was essentially correct.

I'm not sure what you mean by his "suggestions" though - he didn't make many.

[Ineedhelp123]

(Original post by DontJudge)
Look i'm saying, you're obviously an individual with a middle class background. Who is rejecting the Marxist theory, saying it is untrue, that the class in power doesn't have the most influence on how society is shaped.

But i'm saying it is true, i've noticed the working class have more disadvantages, with their lifestyle, and with the priorities that they are brought up in.

You're saying this is false, even though you've never understood the proletairiet lifestlye.

You don't know what your talking about. I'm from Oxford and come from a very working class family, and most of the people I know live on council estates.

For a Communist you sure are bigoted. Your name is also hugely ironic.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by DontJudge)
Look i'm saying, you're obviously an individual with a middle class background. Who is rejecting the Marxist theory, saying it is untrue, that the class in power doesn't have the most influence on how society is shaped.

But i'm saying it is true, i've noticed the working class have more disadvantages, with their lifestyle, and with the priorities that they are brought up in.

You're saying this is false, even though you've never understood the proletairiet lifestlye.

You appear to be simultaneously employing classic Marxist argumentation, in which you merely point to the class background of your opponent without actually engaging in what they are saying, while employing an extraordinarily mistaken understanding of Marxism itself, which cannot be summarised as "the class in power has the most influence on how society is shaped" and "the working class have more disadvantages, with their lifestyle, and with the priorities that they are brought up in." This is a banal observation that thinkers from every possible philosophical background would accept (given a flexible definition of 'class,' a concept which only applies in the Marxist sense in recent history).

[Newbie123]

(Original post by Kibalchich)
Personally I think his analysis of capitalism in Capital was essentially correct.

I'm not sure what you mean by his "suggestions" though - he didn't make many.

Well, perhaps "suggestions" was a poor vocab choice.

Marx stated that Communism should be embraced in order to avoid the class rift that capitalism causes.

[The Mr Z]

(Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
Socialism can of course survive for as long as it takes to consume the wealth created under freer economic systems, and after that for as long as the authoritarian structures that maintain it can hang on.

And there you highlight one of the misreadings of history that underpinned Marxism, which the 20th century has dispelled.

Free market Capitalism does not create any more wealth than a Marxist system. This is a claim made by Neo-Liberals without any evidence to back it up in order to remove the functions of the state that are actually required by Capitalist theory for proper functioning of the markets.

Don't confuse wealth, money and credit. Capitalist systems are capable of producing vast amounts of credit, but this is not the same as creating wealth.

There has never been a true Marxist system attempted on this planet. Socialism is not Marxism, the USSR was not communist but a dictatorship disguised under the guise of socialism. Actually read Marx's theory before you attempt to discredit it.

The 20th century hasn't shown this to be a misreading at all, in fact the cold war accurately demonstrated the first of Marx's postulates about the overthrow of autocracy. The last 2 decades have quite succinctly demonstrated that his views on Capitalism hold substantial merit. Don't hold your breath that neo-liberal capitalist systems will survive the next 20 years.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by Ineedhelp123)
You don't know what your talking about. I'm from Oxford and come from a very working class family, and most of the people I know live on council estates.

For a Communist you sure are bigoted. Your name is also hugely ironic.

It is nevertheless a correct assessment of me, although I have pointed out why it is irrelevant to the question at issue. I wonder how he would deal with the many free-market advocates who come from poor backgrounds, or with Marx himself, a member of a wealthy upper-middle-class family.

[DontJudge]

(Original post by Ineedhelp123)
You don't know what your talking about. I'm from Oxford and come from a very working class family, and most of the people I know live on council estates.

For a Communist you sure are bigoted. Your name is also hugely ironic.

I mean working class families who are culturally deprived. Some working class people live in a better environment, than other working class people who live in areas that are filled with dangerous gangs.

However my point was, that if you don't believe in Marxism, you believe that everyone has equal chances. I don't believe everyone has equal chances. We are mere components on a chessboard, some are placed at the front, a more advantageous position to get to the otherside of glory. And the others still stuck at the back, which represents the lower class.

I'm bigoted? Don't really mean to be though

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by Newbie123)
? The Communist Manifesto states that capitalism will not prove to be a viable, long-term structure - due to the class disparity - and that socialism will inevitably have to be introduced to avoid this conflict.

What exactly has the 20th Century dispelled?

The 20th century has seen the endurance of economic freedom (capitalism) and the collapse of all attempts at marxism amid stagnation and immense human suffering.

[AdvanceAndVanquish]

(Original post by DontJudge)
However my point was, that if you don't believe in Marxism, you believe that everyone has equal chances.

This is 100% completely untrue, as I explain above.