[I-Am-A-Tripod]

(Original post by harmony_01)
Sorry, let's forgot history- Saddam was your puppet, you sold him the gas, and lest we forget, Churchill also gassed the kurds to spread "lively terror" as he put it and look how he went down in history and given that both "liberation" attempts have led to deaths of millions of people. 1 1/2 million in the first gulf war and hundred of thousands in this war, can you understand why anyone sane would throw a ''stink"?

I agree with you that he was a brutal man at all levels. However, I believe in what Malcolm X said: "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." Considering the last 10 years, least expect the West to give that "freedom". Nobody is welcoming it with bunch of roses, ...lol.




Good to know.

saddam wasnt my puppet, nor did i sell him any gas. But that is hardly the point is it - you tried to pretend that uks muslims were only concerned about human rights, but clearly when its saddam doing the genocides that doesnt apply, only it seems when israelis are involved. I dont see what winston churchil has to do with your point about muslim point of view either - sounds more like re-direction.
i have no interest in what malcolm x said, he was a petty criminal that converted to islam in jail - neither in my eyes makes him a man whos words have any value over anyone elses.

[harmony_01]

(Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod)
saddam wasnt my puppet, nor did i sell him any gas. But that is hardly the point is it - you tried to pretend that uks muslims were only concerned about human rights, but clearly when its saddam doing the genocides that doesnt apply, only it seems when israelis are involved. I dont see what winston churchil has to do with your point about muslim point of view either - sounds more like re-direction.

I'm not trying to re-direct from anything, I'm just saying going to war to Iraq mightn't be trusted by Muslims at the time given the history. Forgive me please for not being updated in Middle Eastern politics at the time of war in Iraq aged 12 and for not knowing and being incapable of stopping genocide against Kurds before I was born.

There has always been mass attention towards Israel, due to the nature and history that brought it to shape. This doesn't excuse the fact that sometimes, yes, other issues have been waved off, so I agree with you there.

i have no interest in what malcolm x said, he was a petty criminal that converted to islam in jail - neither in my eyes makes him a man whos words have any value over anyone elses.

Good to know.

[Lazar Wolf]

(Original post by naiadania)


Not swords nor violence nor war can force a people to believe in something which they do not agree with. Swords do not cause faith to grow.

Now I agree with you here, but only up to a point. I know exactly what you are trying to convey, that it is in one's heart that true faith lies, and no outer observance or forced conversion creates a faith. In that respect yes, you are right.

But the fact of the matter is that Islam and not only Islam but other religions such as Christianity have during certain historical epochs forced their opinions on others at the end of a sword and in more recent times at the barrel of a gun. Note, I am not saying that all Muslims and Christians have behaved like this, not all, but some have. There have been persecutions by some Muslims towards other faiths, and there have been persecutions by some Muslims of one denomination towards other Muslims of other denominations, but certainly not all Muslims have been this aggressive, and not all Muslim countries either. Similarly there have also been persecutions by Christians towards other faiths and other denominations of Christianity, but not all Christians have done this. It is a historical fact, as well as the stamping out of heretical beliefs within the faith too. I suppose that this is one of the drawbacks of mainstream religion. There will always be a fanatifc or fanatics within all religious faiths and also secular ideologies too.

[Lazar Wolf]

For furhter information about forced religious conversions (of all faiths) see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

[I-Am-A-Tripod]

(Original post by harmony_01)
I'm not trying to re-direct from anything, I'm just saying going to war to Iraq mightn't be trusted by Muslims at the time given the history. Forgive me please for not being updated in Middle Eastern politics at the time of war in Iraq aged 12 and for not knowing and being incapable of stopping genocide against Kurds before I was born.

There has always been mass attention towards Israel, due to the nature and history that brought it to shape. This doesn't excuse the fact that sometimes, yes, other issues have been waved off, so I agree with you there.



Good to know.

interesting to know though that you wouldnt really know the updates of middle east politics in iraq when you were 12, but be fully versed on the palestine issue which started probably 30 years before you were born. Thats not to say there werent plenty of muslims around during the 1980s and 90s that were older than you thet didnt have much to say about saddam. Or indeed when india went to war with pakistan to stop their genocide of millions of bangladeshi muslims.
That isnt to say im not waving off the palestine issue, im jsut saying there is bias in muslim camps, so you cant claim muslim are any more human rights concious than anyone else

[harmony_01]

(Original post by I-Am-A-Tripod)
interesting to know though that you wouldnt really know the updates of middle east politics in iraq when you were 12, but be fully versed on the palestine issue which started probably 30 years before you were born. Thats not to say there werent plenty of muslims around during the 1980s and 90s that were older than you thet didnt have much to say about saddam. Or indeed when india went to war with pakistan to stop their genocide of millions of bangladeshi muslims.
That isnt to say im not waving off the palestine issue, im jsut saying there is bias in muslim camps, so you cant claim muslim are any more human rights concious than anyone else

Now you're trolling. I actually wasn't ''fully versed'', I supported Israel.

This discussion isn't productive. We can keep looking at this black and white picture of how evilz Saddam was all day and how Muslims didn't do anything. Yeah they've got the sort their act together.

[xXxiKillxXx]

(Original post by Bonged.)
I presume you mean non-muslims in the UK? You were going on about replacing us?

Aaanyway, for anyone that didn't believe nutcase extremist muslims existed and want to take over - got one here!

You need basic lessons in English language comprehension. I said Allah doesn't NEED Muslims who apostate! And this can clearly be seen in the large number of people becoming Muslim..

In other words, as many become non-Muslim, many return to Islam..

And that was very ''extreme'' wasn't it?

[sapphiregold]

(Original post by Elipsis)
The fact that the people of Bradford elect their politicians on such ridiculous trivial issues, that have nothing to do with this country, shows just how un-British they are. Muslims only care about other Muslims. They don't care that areas of the world like Sudan where they are killing or starving millions - all focus must be on the tiny corner of the world where they are apparently oppressed.

you are very wrong about this. the media protrays a minority of muslims at there worst. islam is about peace and if a so called muslim is selfish and doesn't care about others than how can he/she call themselve a muslim?
people who don't understand islam are the ones who judge without knowledge and background. because of one persons corrupted thoughts millions follow and this causes conflict. the media doesn't show the muslim charity and aid workers who are helping third world countries they show what will sell and what would make people talk so that they will have more to write about eg: they may write about a muslim raping someone (which is on so many levels bad) then people will riot and fight and then they can write about that.

personally i think you shouldn't judge a group of people on stereotypes but on individual person

[Elipsis]

(Original post by sapphiregold)
you are very wrong about this. the media protrays a minority of muslims at there worst. islam is about peace and if a so called muslim is selfish and doesn't care about others than how can he/she call themselve a muslim?
people who don't understand islam are the ones who judge without knowledge and background. because of one persons corrupted thoughts millions follow and this causes conflict. the media doesn't show the muslim charity and aid workers who are helping third world countries they show what will sell and what would make people talk so that they will have more to write about eg: they may write about a muslim raping someone (which is on so many levels bad) then people will riot and fight and then they can write about that.

personally i think you shouldn't judge a group of people on stereotypes but on individual person

It's the ideology you follow that I despise, not the majority of followers. Just because the majority of followers are good, it does not follow that the ideology is good. I'm sure the majority of Nazi supporters didn't kill a Jew themselves

[mariachi]

(Original post by ALII)
if Islam was spread by the sword why aren't the whole Middle Eastern population Muslims?

Arab Muslims, originally, were not so much interested in converting people, rather in conquering States, eliminating local aristocracies and installing themselves in their place, as a ruling class

as to conquered "kuffar" people, they were left very much to their devices: as long as the taxes were flowing and they didn't get uppity.. this was especially true during the Umayyad period

with time, of course, the advantages of joining the "ruling class" became evident, and people started to convert to Islam. This even caused, during certain periods, severe financial trouble for the Caliphate, because of reduced tax income

however, the process of conversion to Islam was slow, and took centuries..; historians estimate that the population of the Caliphate was non-Muslim in its majority until about the year 1000

the process then accelerated. And yes, there are still non-Muslims in the Middle East, but (I am afraid) not for long : they are not converting, but they are, rather, leaving

[mariachi]

(Original post by Elipsis)
It's the ideology you follow that I despise, not the majority of followers. Just because the majority of followers are good, it does not follow that the ideology is good. I'm sure the majority of Nazi supporters didn't kill a Jew themselves

yep

sometimes, the link between the theory and the practice can be very difficult to ascertain

in Western Europe, until 1990, you had some huge Communist parties (up to 35% of votes in Italy, 25% in France etc)

Did all those people want a Communist revolution, State property of all means of production, a centrally-planned economy, alliance with Moscow and the Warsaw pact etc etc

No of course. Mostly, they disliked the available alternatives, thought that, as a political class, the Communist leadership was better, and wanted salary increases, shorter working hourse, better pensions.

[mariachi]

(Original post by xXxiKillxXx)
Allah doesn't NEED Muslims who apostate! And this can clearly be seen in the large number of people becoming Muslim.

in many cases, these can be exactly the same people

how many people who convert to Islam are still muslim after, say, 10 years ?

no one knows. Conversions/diversions are not counted by any statistic, and so we just have our superficial impressions to go by

unless you want to start counting the people who post their religious life on youtube... a cringeworthy initiative if I ever saw one

[xXxiKillxXx]

(Original post by mariachi)
in many cases, these can be exactly the same people

how many people who convert to Islam are still muslim after, say, 10 years ?

no one knows. Conversions/diversions are not counted by any statistic, and so we just have our superficial impressions to go by

unless you want to start counting the people who post their religious life on youtube... a cringeworthy initiative if I ever saw one

My point still stands. Whilst they decide to leave Islam, many others will embrace it and practice for their entire life.

[wizkidy]

More ignorant people............... Get your fact right Islam is a religion of P....E.....A.....C.....E don't judge by a small group of people claiming to be Muslims and doing stupid stuff!!!!!