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How whites took over America

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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Uh oh, you're doing that thing again. That thing where you confuse race and culture? 'Whites and native Americans are socially constructed distinctions' != 'different cultures should not be embraced'.

    I think it's worth pointing out that Native American culture is still alive today within the surviving tribes so the video's implication that immigration is going to destroy white culture or whatever is pretty ****ing ridiculous when you compare what the native Americans went through to what we are experiencing.
    (no i'm not. native american cultures are by definition native to the americas)

    Can you clarify that I can't actually tell what point you're making.

    Not really, it has declined massively and currently native americans (particularly the young) have some of the highest suicide rates in the world due to lack of identity, displacement, discrimination etc. I would be happy to debate further on the decline of native american culture if you are so inclined.

    Quite. Nothing wrong with taking lessons from history though. In the native american case, we can see the damage that cultural displacement takes on a population. Now we acknowledge that people have a right to their ancestral cultural heritage, and indeed homeland. A terrible loss for humanity.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    (no i'm not. native american cultures are by definition native to the americas)

    Can you clarify that I can't actually tell what point you're making.
    I basically think you read too far into my comment. The guy in the cartoon came up with a couple of good points about race and I found it funny that even in their own video these people couldn't come up with a convincing response to them. That's it.

    Not really, it has declined massively and currently native americans (particularly the young) have some of the highest suicide rates in the world due to lack of identity, displacement, discrimination etc. I am actually partially native american myself and would be happy to debate further on the decline of native american culture if you are so inclined.
    Yes, but this has to do with vast numbers of them being wiped out by disease or simply slaughtered, having their land taken over, then the remainder being cordoned off into 'reserves' which shrank massively over time, and then like you said still suffered massive discrimination. I don't think white people simply being there (in the way that our immigrants are 'simply here') has much to do with the sorry state of native American culture.

    I think it's fine to celebrate culture but cultures shouldn't become so insulated that they resist any kind of change just for the sake of it. Basically all cultures in Europe and especially America are at least in part products of foreign influence dating way, way back so I really don't see the problem with it continuing to change.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I basically think you read too far into my comment. The guy in the cartoon came up with a couple of good points about race and I found it funny that even in their own video these people couldn't come up with a convincing response to them. That's it.



    Yes, but this has to do with vast numbers of them being wiped out by disease or simply slaughtered, having their land taken over, then the remainder being cordoned off into 'reserves' which shrank massively over time, and then like you said still suffered massive discrimination. I don't think white people simply being there (in the way that our immigrants are 'simply here') has much to do with the sorry state of native American culture.

    I think it's fine to celebrate culture but cultures shouldn't become so insulated that they resist any kind of change just for the sake of it. Basically all cultures in Europe and especially America are at least in part products of foreign influence dating way, way back so I really don't see the problem with it continuing to change.
    What would you blame it on?

    ...look at the native americans.

    What is unique about the cultures you talk of in being products of foreign influence?

    I'm kind of getting a disturbing sense that you are excusing the destruction of native american culture. That you are somehow putting the blame on the indians themselves... chilling.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    What would you blame it on?
    lol are you serious? There's a massive list of reasons I gave right before the part you bolded. Like it's literally right there. Are you telling me you missed that part?

    Not even gonna dignify the rest of your post with a response cos it's just so ****ing ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I think it's fine to celebrate culture but cultures shouldn't become so insulated that they resist any kind of change just for the sake of it. Basically all cultures in Europe and especially America are at least in part products of foreign influence dating way, way back so I really don't see the problem with it continuing to change.
    You sort of gave the game away there, if we're all 99.9% genetically identical why would you concern yourself with a little thing like cultural insulation? We're all the same remember, so there's nothing to integrate into and nothing to insulate yourself from. Everyone is equal.

    Somthing smells a bit fishy about your story.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    You sort of gave the game away there, if we're all 99.9% genetically identical why would you concern yourself with a little thing like cultural insulation? We're all the same remember, so there's nothing to integrate into and nothing to insulate yourself from. Everyone is equal.

    Somthing smells a bit fishy about your story.
    ****, I forgot that genetics and culture are the same thing! There goes my argument.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    lol are you serious? There's a massive list of reasons I gave right before the part you bolded. Like it's literally right there. Are you telling me you missed that part?

    Not even gonna dignify the rest of your post with a response cos it's just so ****ing ridiculous.
    Those things would have happened without white people there?

    Dignify? lol. you've been owned so many times it's getting pointless.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    Those things would have happened without white people there?

    Dignify? lol. you've been owned so many times it's getting pointless.
    What I said was "white people simply being there (in the way that our immigrants are 'simply here')" did not cause the decline of Native American culture. It is possible to physically exist in a geographical location without slaughtering and oppressing millions of people. Hope this helps.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    What I said was "white people simply being there (in the way that our immigrants are 'simply here')" did not cause the decline of Native American culture. It is possible to physically exist in a geographical location without slaughtering and oppressing millions of people. Hope this helps.
    To transplant huge numbers of people with vastly different cultural behaviours onto a host society that largely would rather not have them is cultural displacement.

    Sure, the all out warfare and racism is over, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of native americans feel that they have had their ancestral identity supplanted. Hence the abysmal statistics. Unless native populations are somehow more responsible than immigrant populations and you blame native american cultural displacement on it being inferior somehow. :holmes:
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    ****, I forgot that genetics and culture are the same thing! There goes my argument.
    Your argument is certainly flawed because it consists of two equal and opposing views:

    1) The Science tells us that humanity's similiarities vastly outweigh any differences.
    2) We should be encouraged to integrate and mix around as much as possible to help promote the idea equality.

    If we're all the same anyway why should "insulation" be discouraged? It seems your confidence for point 1 is severely lacking. No-one who truly believed that we're all virtually identical would be frightened at the prospect of insultion, you're argument doesn't add up.
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    (Original post by Bonged.)
    To transplant huge numbers of people with vastly different cultural behaviours onto a host society that largely would rather not have them is cultural displacement.

    Sure, the all out warfare and racism is over, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of native americans feel that they have had their ancestral identity supplanted. Hence the abysmal statistics. Unless native populations are somehow more responsible than immigrant populations and you blame native american cultural displacement on it being inferior somehow. :holmes:
    The native Americans had their lands taken from them by force. When the Europeans first arrived in America the indigenous population was actually quite accommodating until it was obvious the Europeans were out to subjugate them.

    I have no problem with two cultures existing on the same piece of dirt. I do have a problem when the new culture attempts to destroy or replace the other.

    (Original post by chefdave)
    Your argument is certainly flawed because it consists of two equal and opposing views:

    1) The Science tells us that humanity's similiarities vastly outweigh any differences.
    2) We should be encouraged to integrate and mix around as much as possible to help promote the idea equality.

    If we're all the same anyway why should "insulation" be discouraged? It seems your confidence for point 1 is severely lacking. No-one who truly believed that we're all virtually identical would be frightened at the prospect of insultion, you're argument doesn't add up.
    But those two views are not opposing. Human races are not genetically significant. However, different cultures exist, and whether or not they should mix is a matter of opinion. These are two distinct things, and are not mutually exclusive. Which one of these do you not think is true?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    The native Americans had their lands taken from them by force. When the Europeans first arrived in America the indigenous population was actually quite accommodating until it was obvious the Europeans were out to subjugate them.

    I have no problem with two cultures existing on the same piece of dirt. I do have a problem when the new culture attempts to destroy or replace the other.



    But those two views are not opposing. Human races are not genetically significant. However, different cultures exist, and whether or not they should mix is a matter of opinion. These are two distinct things, and are not mutually exclusive. Which one of these do you not think is true?
    Oh. We have no disagreement then.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    But those two views are not opposing. Human races are not genetically significant. However, different cultures exist, and whether or not they should mix is a matter of opinion. These are two distinct things, and are not mutually exclusive. Which one of these do you not think is true?
    Well lets put it this way, I'm not entirely comfetable with the idea of allowing our immigration policy to be determined by genetics. British culture and the sub-cultures that have grown organically over thousands of years are unique to these islands so I'd be wary introducing (en masse) alien customs and traditions that simply don't belong here. As a wise man once said "Britain should be about British"
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Well lets put it this way, I'm not entirely comfetable with the idea of allowing our immigration policy to be determined by genetics. British culture and the sub-cultures that have grown organically over thousands of years are unique to these islands so I'd be wary introducing (en masse) alien customs and traditions that simply don't belong here. As a wise man once said "Britain should be about British"
    Would it be worth pointing out that our culture exists as it does today due in no small part to foreign influence? Why was it organic back then but not now?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Would it be worth pointing out that our culture exists as it does today due in no small part to foreign influence? Why was it organic back then but not now?
    Because it's a lot easier to integrate peoples with similar values to your own, where exactly did these foreign influences come from? I'll tell you, Italy, France, Scandanavia and other parts of Western Europe, i.e all from neighbours within the same race. There's simply no comparison between the invasions that took place 1000s of years ago before we were even recogonised as a legitimate political unit and the sort of uncontrolled mass immigration we're seeing today.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Because it's a lot easier to integrate peoples with similar values to your own, where exactly did these foreign influences come from? I'll tell you, Italy, France, Scandanavia and other parts of Western Europe, i.e all from neighbours within the same race. There's simply no comparison between the invasions that took place 1000s of years ago before we were even recogonised as a legitimate political unit and the sort of uncontrolled mass immigration we're seeing today.
    I think you underestimate just how different Roman culture was to Celtic culture, and how different Norman culture was to Anglo-Saxon culture. European culture was a lot less homogeneous back then. I don't see why it matters how long ago it happened or what our political situation was because surely you could say the same thing about our current state of affairs a thousand years from now, after all who knows what our political situation will be then? I also don't see why race is important, because it merely denotes skin colour. You are right about one thing though, it is hard to compare invasions to immigration, because the former is forceful.

    What about the cultural influence the Moors had in Iberia? Is that organic?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I think you underestimate just how different Roman culture was to Celtic culture, and how different Norman culture was to Anglo-Saxon culture. European culture was a lot less homogeneous back then. I don't see why it matters how long ago it happened or what our political situation was because surely you could say the same thing about our current state of affairs a thousand years from now, after all who knows what our political situation will be then? I also don't see why race is important, because it merely denotes skin colour. You are right about one thing though, it is hard to compare invasions to immigration, because the former is forceful.

    What about the cultural influence the Moors had in Iberia? Is that organic?
    ....

    Cultural displacement is carried out with the explicit consent of the majority of the population?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I think you underestimate just how different Roman culture was to Celtic culture, and how different Norman culture was to Anglo-Saxon culture. European culture was a lot less homogeneous back then. I don't see why it matters how long ago it happened or what our political situation was because surely you could say the same thing about our current state of affairs a thousand years from now, after all who knows what our political situation will be then? I also don't see why race is important, because it merely denotes skin colour. You are right about one thing though, it is hard to compare invasions to immigration, because the former is forceful.

    What about the cultural influence the Moors had in Iberia? Is that organic?
    I call the development of Britain 'organic' because there was never any point in time when the inhabitants said to themselves: "Do you know what we really need to shake up our boring mono-culture? Mass immigration and a multi-cultural melting pot full of life affirming diversity", yes between 43AD and 1066 the Celts and various other groups had to put up with newcomers but that process took place long before Britain had established itself as a recognisable entity.

    The was no Grand Plan 2000 years ago that would eventually culminate into one the more prosperous and democratic nations on earth, it just happened. Leftists however believe that our history justifies a genetic experiment whereby they attempt to breed out the negative aspects of our culture/race and replace them with superior foreign ones. I don't know about you but I expect to be treated a little better than a pedigree dog ripe for breeding. It's a very insulting attitude to take toward a nation of people.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I call the development of Britain 'organic' because there was never any point in time when the inhabitants said to themselves: "Do you know what we really need to shake up our boring mono-culture? Mass immigration and a multi-cultural melting pot full of life affirming diversity", yes between 43AD and 1066 the Celts and various other groups had to put up with newcomers but that process took place long before Britain had established itself as a recognisable entity.

    The was no Grand Plan 2000 years ago that would eventually culminate into one the more prosperous and democratic nations on earth, it just happened. Leftists however believe that our history justifies a genetic experiment whereby they attempt to breed out the negative aspects of our culture/race and replace them with superior foreign ones. I don't know about you but I expect to be treated a little better than a pedigree dog ripe for breeding. It's a very insulting attitude to take toward a nation of people.
    Do you seriously believe this?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Do you seriously believe this?
    Well yes. You've said yourself that nations shouldn't remain "insulated" so I can only conclude that you believe them to be inferior and in need of multi-culturalist quality control. It sounds like a genetic breeding experiment to me.

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