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Intelligence And Fascism

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    I hate the Nazis and I don´t want to discuss about how bad this crowd of brutes were. But I found an interesting fact in the book: ”The Nuremberg- Mind – The Psychology of the Nazi Leaders”
    Authors Florence R. Miale, Michael Selzer. Quadrangle / The New York Times Book Co., New York Source: OSS Officer Gilbert

    “All examined Nazi leaders, excluded Julius Streicher, publisher of the "Stuermer", had an above-average intelligence ; Hjalmar shaft and Arthur Seyss-Inquart reached even unusually high IQ values from more than 140 (Göring: 138).”

    What do you think, is the motivation for above-average intelligent people to be involved in such an inhuman and barbaric system?
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    Two concepts: Self interest and Patriotism. Most of the mentioned people didn't actively pioneer Nazism and they were only in it for the power. Schacht was actually a Liberal politician before the Nazis came to power and he simply bowed down to them in order to maintain his wealth. That said we was resistant of Hitler late in the War and he was not found guilty in Nuremberg. Goering was simply wanting to become aristocracy and his late war behaviour showed this very clearly. And the others, such as Raeder and Doenitz, were in the Armed Forces or Government out of simple patriotism. They didn't question. They didn't act. They simply served.
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    (Original post by Panta Rhei)
    I hate the Nazis and I don´t want to discuss about how bad this crowd of brutes were. But I found an interesting fact in the book: ”The Nuremberg- Mind – The Psychology of the Nazi Leaders”
    Authors Florence R. Miale, Michael Selzer. Quadrangle / The New York Times Book Co., New York Source: OSS Officer Gilbert

    “All examined Nazi leaders, excluded Julius Streicher, publisher of the "Stuermer", had an above-average intelligence ; Hjalmar shaft and Arthur Seyss-Inquart reached even unusually high IQ values from more than 140 (Göring: 138).”

    What do you think, is the motivation for above-average intelligent people to be involved in such an inhuman and barbaric system?
    First of all, I'd want to see the original research paper that claimed to measure the IQ of the Nazi leaders.
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    (Original post by Panta Rhei)
    I hate the Nazis and I don´t want to discuss about how bad this crowd of brutes were. But I found an interesting fact in the book: ”The Nuremberg- Mind – The Psychology of the Nazi Leaders”
    Authors Florence R. Miale, Michael Selzer. Quadrangle / The New York Times Book Co., New York Source: OSS Officer Gilbert

    “All examined Nazi leaders, excluded Julius Streicher, publisher of the "Stuermer", had an above-average intelligence ; Hjalmar shaft and Arthur Seyss-Inquart reached even unusually high IQ values from more than 140 (Göring: 138).”

    What do you think, is the motivation for above-average intelligent people to be involved in such an inhuman and barbaric system?

    it makes sense that nazi leaders were higher than average intelligence.

    the idiot masses are not capable of rational thought and so their opinions and hatreds are given to them by the opinion shapers.

    example: if the nazis won the war, you would be praising the nazis right now.

    you only hate the nazis because the nazis lost.
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    @ natchina
    No, I hate the Nazis because nearly all men of my family died in WWII. Some of them were between 16 and 19 years old Children. Our family lost two Houses and their homeland. My great grandfather, he was 29 years old in 1939 and had two little sons, was a Soldier from 1939 until 1944. Poland, France, Soviet Union. In 1944 he was badly wounded and after a few Weeks in hospital, he got a stay at a health spa in the Normandy. Called “West front”. Many soldiers from the eastern front got a holiday there for recovery. At this time, he had no tooth anymore because of scorbutic and he was nearly deaf. He looked like an old man. Between 1939 and 1944 he has had only two short furloughs. Before 1939 he was a clerk and he was a socialist. The Nazis liked to kill socialist and communist by sending them in dangerous fights. It´s because, the Nazis did not like socialists and communists really, you know. My great grandfather died from an American grenade in August 1944. The great father of my grandmother was a “guest” of the Gestapo because in 1934 he said that now there will be war and Germany will be lost. The Gestapo only asked him about the health of his family. He never said something against the Nazis again. My grand aunt had two sons. They were apolitical. Walter (19) died in 1941 in Greece, Heinz (20) in 1943 in the Soviet Union. Her Husband, an old member of the German social democratic Party, was burnt alive in the Rumanian Oilfields. Many hundreds of Soldiers were burnt there alive, you know. My Grand Aunts sister, she was a youth chess master, was raped several times by drunken red army soldiers. She was a pretty girl. Even after the war she was a very attractive woman. However, all she could do from this time on was to stare out of a window of a sanatorium. She died 1991. My Grandfather, he was a 10-year-old boy in 1945, shot a man a few months after war. This man was a Czech and he wanted to steal a piece of moldy bread from him. And, and, and….You like this stories? I have a lot more of them. Maybe you can understand now, why I hate the Nazis. It is not a question of wining or loosing. Fascism is bad!

    @ Kibalchich

    Read this book: ”The Nuremberg- Mind – The Psychology of the Nazi Leaders”
    Authors Florence R. Miale, Michael Selzer. Quadrangle / The New York Times Book Co., New York
    Maybe you find other sources of information.
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    IQ tests are not the most accurate measurement of intelligence.

    Also, intelligence and morality/ethics are not mutually inclusive.
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    You might be interested in this, if you haven't already seen it;
    http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/grady/nazi.html

    As the author points out, none of these leading Nazis were, or had IQs that would allow them to be, original thinks or theoreticians.
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    This is hardly surprising - top military leaders of any side, in any war, are going to be among the most "intelligent" (in certain ways) people. That's how, and why, they're in charge.
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    Surely most important figures are more intelligent? That's how they rise to their position. It's got nothing to do with morality, I'm sure the allied commanders would have been above average IQ aswell. (Also, IQ is a horrible indicator of intelligence)
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    (Original post by Panta Rhei)
    @ natchina
    No, I hate the Nazis because nearly all men of my family died in WWII. Some of them were between 16 and 19 years old Children. Our family lost two Houses and their homeland. My great grandfather, he was 29 years old in 1939 and had two little sons, was a Soldier from 1939 until 1944. Poland, France, Soviet Union. In 1944 he was badly wounded and after a few Weeks in hospital, he got a stay at a health spa in the Normandy. Called “West front”. Many soldiers from the eastern front got a holiday there for recovery. At this time, he had no tooth anymore because of scorbutic and he was nearly deaf. He looked like an old man. Between 1939 and 1944 he has had only two short furloughs. Before 1939 he was a clerk and he was a socialist. The Nazis liked to kill socialist and communist by sending them in dangerous fights. It´s because, the Nazis did not like socialists and communists really, you know. My great grandfather died from an American grenade in August 1944. The great father of my grandmother was a “guest” of the Gestapo because in 1934 he said that now there will be war and Germany will be lost. The Gestapo only asked him about the health of his family. He never said something against the Nazis again. My grand aunt had two sons. They were apolitical. Walter (19) died in 1941 in Greece, Heinz (20) in 1943 in the Soviet Union. Her Husband, an old member of the German social democratic Party, was burnt alive in the Rumanian Oilfields. Many hundreds of Soldiers were burnt there alive, you know. My Grand Aunts sister, she was a youth chess master, was raped several times by drunken red army soldiers. She was a pretty girl. Even after the war she was a very attractive woman. However, all she could do from this time on was to stare out of a window of a sanatorium. She died 1991. My Grandfather, he was a 10-year-old boy in 1945, shot a man a few months after war. This man was a Czech and he wanted to steal a piece of moldy bread from him. And, and, and….You like this stories? I have a lot more of them. Maybe you can understand now, why I hate the Nazis. It is not a question of wining or loosing. Fascism is bad!

    @ Kibalchich

    Read this book: ”The Nuremberg- Mind – The Psychology of the Nazi Leaders”
    Authors Florence R. Miale, Michael Selzer. Quadrangle / The New York Times Book Co., New York
    Maybe you find other sources of information.



    Ok, fair enough. You have genuine reasons to hate nazis. My point is broader. If the nazis won the war, the nazis would be celebrated as the good guys today.
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    Schacht wasn't a Nazi.
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    (Original post by Algorithm69)
    Schacht wasn't a Nazi.

    When Hitler came to power he made Schacht the president of the “Deutsche Reichbank”. In this position Schacht helped to finance the German armament. He visited several times the NSDAP at the “Reichsparteitag” in Nuremberg and donated appreciable amounts of money to the SA. On the 30th of January, 1937 he got the”Golden Party Badge of the NSDAP” by Hitler. Schacht was a member of the NSDAP. His membership mumber was 3805230.
    Schacht was also a member in other NS organizations: For example, the national-socialist academy of German law.
    After the attempt on Hitler's life on 20 July 1944, Schacht was arrested. He was sent to Ravensbrück, then to Flossenbürg and finally to Dachau.
    In Nuremberg Schacht was acquitted.
    It´s the “old” question. Who was a “real” Nazi except Hitler, Goering and Goebbels? All we can be sure about is, that the simple-minded, arrogant , blond Super-Nazi is a fictional charakter created by (bad) Hollywood filmmakers.
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    Hitler wasn't exactly the smartest chap; by supporting the impossible Operation Barbarossa, he pretty much sent Germany down the road to destruction. This might have just been that he wasn't a strategist, but generally he was more of an opportunist than an intellectual and a genius.
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    Some bad people are intelligent.

    The people at the top of most societies will have needed smarts to get themselves there, in fact many of the Nazi elite just used the ideology as hateful as it was, to put themselves into positions of power, it was just machiavellianism.
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    (Original post by TheHansa)
    Some bad people are intelligent.

    The people at the top of most societies will have needed smarts to get themselves there, in fact many of the Nazi elite just used the ideology as hateful as it was, to put themselves into positions of power, it was just machiavellianism.

    Machiavelli wrote, that the preservation of the Nation is the highest commandment of all political decisions. In the early 1930 even average intelligent people could recognize, that the armament of the Wehrmacht in combination with the statement in “Mein Kampf” and the occurrenses in the everyday life would harm Germany.
    You wrote:”in fact many of the Nazi elite just used the ideology as hateful as it was, to put themselves into positions of power”
    It´s my opinion, too. But it doesn´t explain, why so many educated and intelligent people joined this movement, if they could anticipate that this regime would fail. Even average people surmised a bad end of this episode. The Nazis staged their ideology like a religion. Maybe we can describe this behavior with a psychological terminology: sebastomania. But I think, this explanation is to simple and scratches only the surface.
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    Any person who is capable of an instrumental role in state and military affairs needs a good degree of intelligence. Considering the Nazi movement was a new one (as opposed to being some continuation of a type of aristocracy) then one can assume it was meritocratic. In order to work one's way up in a meritocracy, one must be intelligent. To assume top roles, one would assume one needs to be highly intelligent.
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    (Original post by Panta Rhei)
    Machiavelli wrote, that the preservation of the Nation is the highest commandment of all political decisions. In the early 1930 even average intelligent people could recognize, that the armament of the Wehrmacht in combination with the statement in “Mein Kampf” and the occurrenses in the everyday life would harm Germany.
    You wrote:”in fact many of the Nazi elite just used the ideology as hateful as it was, to put themselves into positions of power”
    It´s my opinion, too. But it doesn´t explain, why so many educated and intelligent people joined this movement, if they could anticipate that this regime would fail. Even average people surmised a bad end of this episode. The Nazis staged their ideology like a religion. Maybe we can describe this behavior with a psychological terminology: sebastomania. But I think, this explanation is to simple and scratches only the surface.
    I agree that the pseudo-religious fanatacism was key in getting the average German on board, especially after the humiliation they suffered after WW1, and whilst it probably was a factor among the more intelligent Germans. I don't think that the Nazi Empire was doomed from the start, they never had the intention of a world war on two major fronts, and even then if it wasn't for major strategic errors they would could have one or at least brokered a favourable peace for themselves, but I sense you're more interested in the mass psychology of the German people.
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    I am surprised that I am surprised, if that makes sense.

    It is kind of obvious though. To become that influential from almost nothing (which many of them were) requires a tremendous amount of intelligence and/or dedication. On the other hand it is also not strange that none have IQs over 150 as people with such IQs usually have defects such as being very socially awkward, and therefore being unsuitable for any type of leadership.

    I'd guess that the majority of leaders who were brought in with similar positions (difficult ascensions with no initial power) all also have similar IQs.

    Now whether IQ is associated with morality is a different question. The majority of people with high IQs tend to be atheists, hence are more likely to commit suicide, so maybe there is a link between this marginally increased chance of depression and cynicism/socio-pathic disorders that trend with the Nazis?

    Just theoreticising here, please don't hate.
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    The whole concept of IQ is deeply uncertain.

    The greatest men may well have scored poorly on any 'intelligence test' - even in this thread there are people calling Hitler idiots etc., but seriously, I know there is a 'structuralist' school of thought in the history of the rise of the NSDAP but his master plans were executed with such skill and precision I don't think you can say he was not 'intelligent', even if we hardly know what that word means.
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    (Original post by NB_ide)
    This is hardly surprising - top military leaders of any side, in any war, are going to be among the most "intelligent" (in certain ways) people. That's how, and why, they're in charge.
    I'm sure that if you look at most of history, it will show you that the opposite is true.

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