[James82]

(Original post by Domino25)
I am about to leave my half private school and half state school education and so find this thread particularly interesting. I am not particularly rich - hence why my education was only half private - and am eternally grateful for what my parents worked very hard to give me. But people are making out that there is a huge barrier between the intellectual standard of private school and state school pupils, and although there is a little truth in this, it has been taken entirely out of proportion. Just because someone's parents has mustered up the money to let them go to a private school, does not automatically give that person some sort of magical gift to ace all their exams. Every child and teenager is different in ability, motivation and learning styles. For some people, being given a different educational environment does not mean they will learn any better. When I moved from my state school to my private school, I was put into the top set in maths and second top in english - my private school education had not even begun and I could keep up perfectly fine. The way some of you are putting it, I should have been failing every class. Last year my sole revision technique was BBC Bitesize. Don't even try and tell me that any state school student doesn't have access to that.

Seeing as it's based almost entirely online, then there will be quite a few state educated children who don't have access 24/7 at home.

(Original post by Domino25)
In all honesty, I think the majority of what people have written in this thread is people arguing for the sake of arguing. The fact that people are arguing against the argument that universities are prejudiced against privately educated students with arguments such as 'you're so ungrateful for your education' is, quite frankly, just ironic. The system in a university which hands out offers etc. is made up of people just like you and me, so if all of you find it so easy to make such exaggerated assumptions about independent schools, why shouldn't they? I understand it's their job not to take these matters into account, but I bet it's pretty difficult not to let your personal opinions effect such a decision.

No, what most people have been doing in this thread is answering the question the OP posed, that universities do discriminate in favour of state educated children. Also, pointing out that it's not all about the grades, the OP just seems to think that purely because they got the required grades they were good enough for the course, when evidently that is not the case.

(Original post by Domino25)
And people are saying that students who got lesser grades in a state school would do much better in a private school - even so, why should these people who, after taking this into account, are on par with better graded pupils in private schools be given the extra opportunity of a Conditional offer where perfectly good candidates such as 'DRE' here are flat out rejected?

Because that's how the system works, the universities look at an application, apply contextual data adjustments to grades and then make a decision on each candidate. They will look at references, personal statements, experience, grades and any other relevant information, after this they will offer places to those whom they feel are the best candidates. If it offends the OP that they weren't one of the best candidates then they need to wake up and realise that life is full of failure and disappointment and move on. The OP seems to have moved on, but more in a not caring way than with an acceptance that their application simply wasn't good enough.

(Original post by Domino25)
On the other hand, in the name of basic principles, I think it is just wrong to lie to prospective students. Saying that they would get an offer with AAAA and then rejecting them with AAAAB, does no one any good. I bet if these people didn't think they would get in, a lot of them wouldn't have bothered applying and could have had another chance at a different uni.

No university would say you'll get an offer based purely on your grades, I'd like to see one that does.

(Original post by Domino25)
So I'm sorry you didn't get into your first choice of uni, DRE and that people are turning your basic curiosity into some sort of indignated snooty tantrum. Anyone with as much persistency and confidence in their own arguments as you do would probably make a pretty good lawyer actually.

I'm not sorry the OP didn't get in, universities have years of experience of picking the best candidates, I'd be more sorry if they just ignored all that experience and decided to base their decisions purely on grades. Besides, I don't think the "It's not fair" argument works very well in a courtroom.

[Theturnbull9]

Do one.

[Domino25]

(Original post by James82)
Seeing as it's based almost entirely online, then there will be quite a few state educated children who don't have access 24/7 at home.

Now this is just looking at the extremes. We live in a modern day world, soon there'll probably be internet in every puddle. And even so, this is only loosely related to what school you go to so I'm sorry but I don't really see that as a relevant point. I can see from the fact that you looked at all that I said and chose that to rebuttal that you really are just looking for flaws. So this is really a waste of time trying to argue my points. But I will explain the rest of my thinking of this post.

(Original post by James82)
No, what most people have been doing in this thread is answering the question the OP posed, that universities do discriminate in favour of state educated children. Also, pointing out that it's not all about the grades, the OP just seems to think that purely because they got the required grades they were good enough for the course, when evidently that is not the case.

If that is the case, why do you find so much enjoyment in ridiculing everything I am saying? I've read this thread and I know that the OP has made it perfectly clear a number of times that he, as well as his tutors and teachers tried rather hard to make his personal statement good and that he has quite a sufficient amount of experience and extra curricular activities. He has a lot of evidence to say that his personal statement was good, so what evidence do you have to say that it wasn't? I think it's quite pretentious for you to say these things considering you have never even met the guy. A lot of people are trying to argue that he 'simply wasn't good enough'. Now tell me honestly, if a university is given some grades and a personal statement, what other means of differentiating who is 'good enough', and who isn't, do they have? Isn't that the point of us slaving over books and notes for the last four years of our lives? Nevermind the other 9 years leading up to it. Besides, if a candidate doesn't believe in himself how can he expect anyone else to?

(Original post by James82)
Because that's how the system works, the universities look at an application, apply contextual data adjustments to grades and then make a decision on each candidate. They will look at references, personal statements, experience, grades and any other relevant information, after this they will offer places to those whom they feel are the best candidates. If it offends the OP that they weren't one of the best candidates then they need to wake up and realise that life is full of failure and disappointment and move on. The OP seems to have moved on, but more in a not caring way than with an acceptance that their application simply wasn't good enough.

That's very optimistic of you. But stop telling me things I already know. Instead of addressing my point, you just regurgitated what almost everyone on this thread has tried to say - 'they don't just look at your grades, accept your defeat'. But I was asking why they will give some people conditional offers and some flat out rejections with better grades. In this particular case, the OP knows of others who have been given the same response and a pattern has emerged in relation to what grades each person got. He wasn't asking a personal question, he wasn't moaning about his own situation and there was no bitterness in his way of putting it... so why is that the way that people choose to respond to it? He asked a question about whether there could be some bias involved, which of course there is, and used himself as an example. If you have some sort of chip on your shoulder - 'life is full of disappointment and failure' - then maybe you shouldn't take it out on him (or me). Everyone has the right to learn things for themselves, rather than being virtually attacked by means of the very phenomenon that gave us BBC Bitesize.

(Original post by James82)
No university would say you'll get an offer based purely on your grades, I'd like to see one that does.

This is genuinely laughable, you can check any university website or prospectus and find what you are looking for - entry requirements. If you look very carefully you will find alot of letters which don't necessarily form words. There is no mention of any extra curricular or other because academic grades are the one thing every pupil in Britain has the same chance to obtain. I quote the Glasgow university prospectus: 'AAAA = Unconditional offer'. Grades may not be the only thing they look at, but it is the very first thing they look at. A lot of the time they will work down from their top graded candidates and move down a certain amount depending on the number of spaces they have. People with the same grade caught in this catagory will have their other areas looked at, such as personal statement and references etc. So you're right in the sense that they do look at other things, but that statement was wrong without doubt.

(Original post by James82)
I'm not sorry the OP didn't get in, universities have years of experience of picking the best candidates, I'd be more sorry if they just ignored all that experience and decided to base their decisions purely on grades. Besides, I don't think the "It's not fair" argument works very well in a courtroom.

If he had done that, then this feed wouldn't exist, but undoubtably someone else would have started it. Isn't the entire justice system based on just that - justice? Is that not the very definition of fairness?
jus·tice  noun
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.

[DRE_902]

(Original post by James82)
Seeing as it's based almost entirely online, then there will be quite a few state educated children who don't have access 24/7 at home.

Given that the UCAS application system is based online, I'm guessing that the vast, vast majority of people that applied to University this year have internet access.

Yes, unfortunately there will be people who don't have 24/7 access, but they represent the minority. It will be such an insignificant number that it isn't worth taking in to account in this discussion. I certainly wouldn't describe them as "quite a few".

(Original post by James82)
No university would say you'll get an offer based purely on your grades, I'd like to see one that does.

They do. I went to the Newcastle University open day last October and spoke to the admissions selector in person. He told me that if I applied with AAAAB, to study Law, I would be given an unconditional offer. He hadn't seen my personal statement, he hadn't seen my references, he didn't know anything about me apart from my grades.

I did apply, and I did get an unconditional offer.

(Original post by James82)
Besides, I don't think the "It's not fair" argument works very well in a courtroom.

Of course it works well in a courtroom! Every single legal case revolves around the "It's not fair" argument. Can you name one that doesn't?

Murder = It's not fair that his life was taken away from him.
Rape = It's not fair that she was forced to have sex against her will.
Theft = It's not fair that my possessions were stolen.

Think about the thousands of women every year who successfully sue their employers on grounds of sexism because "it's not fair" that they were discriminated against because of their gender.

[Shaaaark]

Sorry for joining in on this so late, but I've busy celebrating my Edinburgh offer for Law
I would like to ask the OP if he believes that I am not an adequate candidate, in 5th year I got 2As a B and 2Cs at higher. My conditions this year are 2Bs at higher so hopefully I'll get them. My dad left me and my mum when I was 5, forcing my mum to moonlight since in order to feed and care for me and 3 siblings. So Dre_902 I'm sorry that my unfortunate predicament has led me to a state school education, so I ask you... am I not deserving of an university education at Edinburgh?

[Jimmy15]

As much as that's a lovely story Shaaark I really don't think its applicable to this thread, the OP is asking about discrimination against candidates rather than special circumstances. I think the obvious answer to the thread is that of course they discriminate, universities have been open about positive discrimination for years. The only real complaint you would have is that someone of the same grades from an equivilant school got in while you didn't. Universities often work on a quota system the government require them to meet.
Anyway as to the actual issue, universities should get the best applicants and someone who works really hard (Shaaark) and gains grades above the average of their school show how hard they work. Unfortunately for the OP this year has been a tough one for applications and normally his grades would get in. Edinburgh want to accept English students who pay more etc...

[Ocassus]

There really is a solution to all of this.

Rework the system so the school is hidden from view of the Universities until they make an offer.

No discrimination any which way occurs, everybody is happy.

[daisiesandfashion]

do you not think the reason, if it was just down to grades, may be due to the other people at the same school achieving higher grades, which would mean they would be first pick, whereas the state school applicant could have achieved the highest grades out of those from the school who also applied to the course?
Obviously, you achieved higher grades than the other applicant but would it not be the same for two state schools also, if say 3 people applied from one with AAAAA, AAAAB and AABBB
and the other state school 3 applied with ABBC, BBCC and BCCC
the AAAAA student may receive an offer but the others may not have but the ABBC student from the other state school may receive an offer?

edit: just adding I don't believe it actually is down to just grades, I know it's not but if you believe it is then this would be a possible explanation, personally I've always thought private education was positively discriminated by universities

[Theturnbull9]

Fook me are you serious? It's not all about grades when it comes down to places. Perhaps this other person has more experience, has amazing references. Use your brain before you cry out prejudice.

[DRE_902]

(Original post by Theturnbull9)
Fook me are you serious? It's not all about grades when it comes down to places. Perhaps this other person has more experience, has amazing references. Use your brain before you cry out prejudice.

Yes, I'm serious. I've been told by the University that the reason I wasn't given an offer was because my grades weren't high enough.

Feel free to read the previous six pages before deciding whether or not I've "used my brain."

[Theturnbull9]

(Original post by DRE_902)
Yes, I'm serious. I've been told by the University that the reason I wasn't given an offer was because my grades weren't high enough.

Feel free to read the previous six pages before deciding whether or not I've "used my brain."

The University has told you that your grades weren't high enough? Well stop moaning on here as I'm guessing that with going to a private school your used get your own way with things. Guess this time you was unlucky. Use your brain and look elsewhere instead of hanging yourself on this thread.

[DRE_902]

(Original post by Theturnbull9)
The University has told you that your grades weren't high enough? Well stop moaning on here as I'm guessing that with going to a private school your used get your own way with things. Guess this time you was unlucky. Use your brain and look elsewhere instead of hanging yourself on this thread.

I was told my grades weren't high enough but people from state schools with significantly lower grades were still made offers. That's the entire point of this thread.

Is "use your brain" your only insult? Also, if that's the way you think about private school students, you clearly don't know many. It's nice to see that you stereotype against people you've never met. That's definitely going to serve you well in life.

[rmpr97]

Well I'd imagine so and quite rightly. If you go to a private school, 9 times out of 10, you're from a better and more affluent background with some of the best teachers and in some of the best school, therefore getting high grades in a private school isn't spectacular as you should be getting those if you are in that school.
Whereas if you're from a state school you're significantly disadvantaged and you don't have access to what you do or the education you was given, so if the person does get a high grade, albeit lower than yours, it is far more spectacular than your higher grade at private school considering that persons context.
If it were just based on grades, then only about a handful of state school applicants would be going to top university which isn't really fair, as we don't have access to high standard education which private school applicants were just given. (You didn't pay for your schooling did you?)

[James82]

(Original post by DRE_902)
I was told my grades weren't high enough but people from state schools with significantly lower grades were still made offers. That's the entire point of this thread.

Is "use your brain" your only insult? Also, if that's the way you think about private school students, you clearly don't know many. It's nice to see that you stereotype against people you've never met. That's definitely going to serve you well in life.

Amazing how many times you have dug this post up considering you were going to stop commenting on it and have moved on. Anyway, you have answered your own question in post 44, given your educational background your grades simply weren't high enough.

Prince William got into St Andrews with ABC in his A-Levels, considering entry requirements are AAB, do you suspect there was any discrimination used there? He later switched to a degree where the entry requirements are AAA. Given his educational background and all the advantages he's had in life surely he should have been rejected given his grades, fortunately times have changed and now universities discriminate correctly, to give an advantage to those who haven't had the luxury of a public school education. Although I still suspect he would have gotten an offer with those grades today at the expense of someone more deserving.

[FranticMind]

It is far easier to get good grades at a private school than at a state school.

They are just bounds apart in quality, I have friends who were privately educated and their education sounded brilliant! I just got the standard curriculum garbage like everyone else.

So if you went to a top school and didn't get top grades, then you aren't even an average candidate. Whereas I know a few who went to a really bad state school and got fantastic grades, so it all changes really.

[Above.The.Empyrean]

Hey dude, I'm sorry that I got the offer for the Uni and you didn't! It's so amazing here, and they didn't give any hoot about my C! Tysm for going to a private school and reducing your chances of applying by 150%!

[mimx]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Scottish unis favour Scottish candidates, if that might be a factor here.

(Original post by Domino25)
And people are saying that students who got lesser grades in a state school would do much better in a private school - even so, why should these people who, after taking this into account, are on par with better graded pupils in private schools be given the extra opportunity of a Conditional offer where perfectly good candidates such as 'DRE' here are flat out rejected?

It's perfectly feasible that a lower graded candidate could be more impressive (and show more potential) if they, for example, come from one of the truly abysmal state schools where they've basically had to teach themselves with no resources.

Personal statements I think are taken with a grain of salt by some places, many private (and yes, some state) schools will practically write it for you these days.

[James82]

(Original post by mimx)
Not sure if this has been mentioned but Scottish unis favour Scottish candidates, if that might be a factor here.

I don't think that's true any more, if it ever was, they get more money from non-Scottish students.

[mimx]

(Original post by James82)
I don't think that's true any more, if it ever was, they get more money from non-Scottish students.

Dunno about unis in general but I think quite a few of the more popular ones do.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...plication-bias

Though you may be right in light of new fees.

[DRE_902]

If you go to a private school, you don't have a God given right to get 5 A's. Not many do. You get very good teachers at state schools, and very bad teachers at private schools. Believe me, I've experienced both.

A few people seem to have recently been arguing that everybody at private school should be getting AAAAA, but that just isn't true.

You can't argue that everybody at a private school will achieve high grades. By that logic, every student in every class should get an identical mark because they had the same teacher, regardless of whether or not it's a state school or private school. But as you know, you get classes at state school where some pupils get CCCCC and some get AAAAA. It's exactly the same at private schools.

My problem is that Universities are admitting some pupils based on the hypothetical scenario of "If their situation had been different, they would have achieved higher grades" when there isn't any evidence to support this. Don't be so naive as to believe that people don't fail tests at private schools. Of course they do.