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Why Abrahamic faiths believe homosexuality is wrong

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    (Original post by alex5455)
    why should the bible be a source of authority anymore than harry potter or lord of the rings? peoples ethics shouldnt be decided by a book written hundreds of years ago and anything that teaches intolerance (like religious texts) should be ignored
    Both of your statements are subjective. Why shouldn't Harry Potter be a source of authority? I think some people at least get positive messages from it (though it's not as complex as the Bible in my view).
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    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    None of the examples you used have anything to do with morality, in my opinion. They illustrate how you believe the Bible to be factually incorrect, and there are a variety of Christian responses to that, one of which is fundamentalism. At the other end of the spectrum, I could argue that the meaning of what it in the Bible resonates with the culture of its time, which does not make its content irrelevant by any means, but which makes it a series of metaphors that provide meaning, purpose and doctrine, each of which having a variety of interpretations.

    As for inconsistencies, anyone who views the Bible as a collation of texts written by different authors might agree that there are bound to be contradictions, even fairly major ones. The Bible itself does not pretend to be the seamless, literal word of God. It is a historical document, and should be treated as one (with all due respect).
    Ok, I didn't say they do, but if you want me to talk about morality, would you call these bible verses moral, this is a link to a video that portrays some of the bible verses
    - , you'd see the name of the book, the chapter and the verse at the end of the video.

    And if you're going to use that old 'cultural context' excuse you are contrasting againsts some bible verses that describes his character such as
    -"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows" -James 1:17
    -" God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"-Numbers 23:19
    Given that there are many other bible verses that depicts the Biblical god as a consistent god, the idea of culture and time means nothing in terms of his moral standards.

    You mean even the people that wrote the bible couldn't possibly agree with each other?, wow, what an excuse for a 'book of books' written by people who has a 'relationship' with one Deity. There are even contradiction within some of the "books" within the book, e.g,
    Genesis- chapter 2:18-19 .vs. the same Genesis- chapter 1:25-27
    Deutronomy: 24:19 .vs. 5:9
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    One thing I have noticed in the short time I have been on this forum is the hatred and hostility by some people directed towards Abrahamic beliefs, Christian beliefs in particular, and towards anyone in specific for believing that homosexuality is wrong.
    I'm sure you realise there are plenty of intelligent Christians who do not believe homosexuality is wrong. With so many interpretations of the bible, and with so many different holy books, could you not say that the bible was a product of it's times and doesn't necessarily reflect the views of God?

    It is not a good reason to believe X is true just because it is written in a book (no least because there is no reason to suppose Christianity is true). Could you provide any reason outside of religion that homosexuality should be viewed as wrong?

    Homosexual people confronted with people telling them they are disordered and un-natural go through immense inner torment and depression. Saying 'homosexuality is wrong' may be okay in your view - having an individualistic bible-based faith - but the consequence of belief in the wrongness of homosexuality in society IS homophobia. Besides, the dictum that homosexuality is wrong allows a forum for those who are actual homophobes to freely express their prejudices.

    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Do you write in order to just insult what other people believe, or are you wanting to explain why you believe there is no God and to attempt to understand what people who believe differently than you believe?
    I don't think I've hurled any insults at you. I like to post in these threads because I'm fascinated and at the same time frustrated with religious belief. I also post because religions should have NO more respectability or protection than political views. They should both be up for debate and contest - they have similar consequences, as ideological systems with real effects. In many cases religion and politics are inseparable. If you choose to believe something that affects people outside of your faith in any way then you have immediately opened up yourself to criticism. If you have no good argument or evidence to believe X then why believe it? Blind faith is not a good basis to hold hurtful beliefs about other people.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello,

    One thing I have noticed in the short time I have been on this forum is the hatred and hostility by some people directed towards Abrahamic beliefs, Christian beliefs in particular, and towards anyone in specific for believing that homosexuality is wrong.

    Granted, I understand that it is wrong for Christians to hate people period, whether people engaged in homosexual lifestyles or people engaged in heterosexual hedonistic lifestyles or people of any belief, ethnicity, gender. Jesus commands his followers to love people, including their enemies, and to forgive, pray for, do good to, bless and help people, not insult them or treat them badly or hate them.


    Now, why is it that there is such this extreme hatred and hostility against those who believe homosexuality is wrong? Is it because you have experienced hatred and hostility from people of Abrahamic faiths? Is it because it just offends you that people believe differently than you do? Why is it exactly?

    If it is because you have experienced hatred and hostility on the part of Christians, then I as a Christian apologize to you and am ashamed. Christians are not to insult or hate people no matter what. We are to love others, pray for others, do good to them, bless those who curse us, and help those in need. I repeat this because it is so important.

    As for those who are merely offended just because Abrahamic beliefs think that homosexuality is wrong, there are people who disagree with many things, and yet do not feel the need to be hostile about differences.

    Concerning me, I personally do not agree with everything that some people think is wrong, but I don't hate them. For example, I have some very sweet Muslim friends who think not wearing a head covering is wrong. However, I disagree and respect their right to believe what they believe is true, even though I disagree. They know why I disagree; we have talked about it, and yet we do not resort to hatred and hostility in spite of our differences in what we believe to be wrong and right.

    Concerning homosexuality, I have friends who are homosexual, as well as I have favorite famous people believed to be homosexual who I absolutely adore (Jim Parsons and Anderson Cooper) who I respect as human beings that are intelligent, handsome, fun, and interesting. I do not condemn them to hell. I do think that their lifestyle is wrong, but I in no way try to force them to change. I also think that the average heterosexual rocker's lifestyle of drugs, sex, and alcohol is wrong, but I don't force them to change. However, I do believe that if they should decide to stop living how they are living and seek God's help to live in line with the Bible, that is their right and I commend them for it.


    Why most Christians believe homosexuality, as well as other forms of sexual immorality (which there are many, most being heterosexual forms, but bestiality is also a form of sexual immorality) is wrong is because of the following Scriptures:
    Genesis 19
    Leviticus 18:1-24
    Leviticus 20:1-17

    Matthew 15:16-20, Matthew 19:1-9
    Acts 15:19-29
    Romans 1:18-32
    1 Corinthians 6:9-20
    Galatians 5:16-23
    Colossians 3:5-19

    Even though Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality, Jesus was a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob (Israel) who grew up following the commands God gave to the children of Israel through Moses. Homosexuality was not allowed since the time of Moses. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, his 12 sons, Moses, Samuel, King David, King Solomon, Isaiah, and many other predominant people were not homosexual, but rather hetersexual. Does this mean that God doesn't love homosexuals? No. God does love them, just as He loves every person who engages in sexual immorality and wants them to repent.

    If you disagree, could you please give the reason why in a polite way, using evidence from the Scriptures? If you do not believe in God, may I ask why you are even writing in a section dedicated to discussing beliefs in God? I know if I didn't believe in God, I would not waste my time writing those who did. Do you write in order to just insult what other people believe, or are you wanting to explain why you believe there is no God and to attempt to understand what people who believe differently than you believe?

    If you are writing to explain that there is no God, can you please explain with what you consider to be evidence, in a polite and educated way?

    Back to homosexuality, those who believe homosexuality is wrong have reasons for that belief. Now, one either agrees or disagrees. If you disagree, why not respond with kindness, politeness, and explain why you disagree? It does not take intelligence, maturity, or integrity to insult someone or to want them to go away. Just to add, I am not going to respond anymore to people whose posts include insults. However, if you have something that you'd like to write that intelligently explains why you disagree, I would love to read your post and answer.

    Thank you.

    Peace and God bless you
    You seem to imply that homosexuality is a choice, faith or addiction. It is none of those those things. I understand why you may believe drug users are 'wrong' but to say homosexuals are wrong for the way 'God made them' is daft. You might as well say Asian people live wrongly for the colour of their skin.


    I don't mind you using scripture to justify your opinions; I absolutely respect you and your right to worship. But I will not use scripture to answer you because 1) I don't believe it is the moral justification of the Universe; and 2) because to do so excludes other perfectly entitled posters who are not familiar with it.
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    You don't get to make excuses for your medieval ideology of hate and genocide. You get to shut up and live with it, and be thankful that the doctors of the world who may end up treating you were smart enough to not share it.
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    (Original post by kenni12)
    Ok, I didn't say they do, but if you want me to talk about morality, would you call these bible verses moral, this is a link to a video that portrays some of the bible verses

    - you'd see the name of the book, the chapter and the verse at the end of the video.
    I agree; there are many sections of the Bible which are considered immoral by most (if not all) people today. See my last sentence for a suggestion of how the Bible *may* be used; but please note that I am defending the Bible as a book, not all forms of Abrahamic belief and practice.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    And if you're going to use that old 'cultural context' excuse you are contrasting againsts some bible verses that describes his character such as
    -"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows" -James 1:17
    -" God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"-Numbers 23:19

    Given that there are many other bible verses that depicts the Biblical god as a consistent god, the idea of culture and time means nothing in terms of his moral standards.
    One of those is from the Old Testament, and one is from the New. So, in the second quote, the coming of Jesus had not yet occurred, hence the reference to God as "not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man". I'm sure there are many Christians who will want to provide alternative explanations, however.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    You mean even the people that wrote the bible couldn't possibly agree with each other?, wow, what an excuse for a 'book of books' written by people who has a 'relationship' with one Deity. There are even contradiction within some of the "books" within the book, e.g,
    Genesis- chapter 2:18-19 .vs. the same Genesis- chapter 1:25-27
    Deutronomy: 24:19 .vs. 5:9
    It's not like one person wrote all of each book, you know (this applies particularly to the Old Testament). I think that today all Christians at least (and quite possibly all Jews and Muslims too) would believe they share a relationship with the same God, but they don't agree on everything. You may be confusing "relationship with God" with "literal connection". Also, why "books"?

    You seem to expect that any book that can be used as a source of morality should be able to be taken as literally true from the beginning to the end. Although that's a valid opinion, it's a subjective one. There is no obvious reason why you cannot use the Bible as a tool to help you choose moral behaviours, remind you of the moral behaviours you want to keep, and sometimes, remind you of behaviours that you do not consider moral.
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    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    I agree; there are many sections of the Bible which are considered immoral by most (if not all) people today. See my last sentence for a suggestion of how the Bible *may* be used; but please note that I am defending the Bible as a book, not all forms of Abrahamic belief and practice.



    One of those is from the Old Testament, and one is from the New. So, in the second quote, the coming of Jesus had not yet occurred, hence the reference to God as "not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man". I'm sure there are many Christians who will want to provide alternative explanations, however.



    It's not like one person wrote all of each book, you know (this applies particularly to the Old Testament). I think that today all Christians at least (and quite possibly all Jews and Muslims too) would believe they share a relationship with the same God, but they don't agree on everything. You may be confusing "relationship with God" with "literal connection". Also, why "books"?

    You seem to expect that any book that can be used as a source of morality should be able to be taken as literally true from the beginning to the end. Although that's a valid opinion, it's a subjective one. There is no obvious reason why you cannot use the Bible as a tool to help you choose moral behaviours, remind you of the moral behaviours you want to keep, and sometimes, remind you of behaviours that you do not consider moral.
    Whether it's old or new, not only that it doesn't matter but it's even makes it to show that no matter what testament/time it is, that the biblical god is a non changing god. The "not a man that he should lie" part means, in my opinion, that he isn't a human or an offspring of a human that can possibly lie. I personally don't see how it has to do with Jesus, anyway you're right they're so many interpretations of the bible, even amongs christians, which is why I as a non-christian only read and understand the bible as it says, verse by verse.

    Whether each person wrote each book or not, any group of person that knows one being or has contact with him/her should be able to agree with what he does or can do, otherwise there's a possiblity that one or more or none of them really don't know him. If I were to allow people to write books on my whole life and others were reading it, but refuse to believe the book was really inspired by me, because of contradictions, I won't blame them, I'd rather put the blame on the writters. OK, besides the Abrahamic god(s), what about other gods, what about the gods of the past cultures like the african gods or the greek gods that lost popularity because of christian/islamic crusades, colonisation and missionaries. I put the word "books" in quotation marks because that's what christians call them, even though they are in a book.


    Well, if a book has many people adoring it's so-called inspirer of the book and using it as something to judge the morality of the acts others incuding non believers, leaving them with pointless guilt and low self esteem, despite many more reliable alternatives, like putting yourselves in ones shoes or wondering how harmful the act is to others, then that's when it should be questioned as a guide book to morality. Christians say that the bible is inspired by the God of the bible therefore it most be obeyed, we skeptical non-believers respond with "show me that your God is real, especially in accordance with the bible, before we decide".
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    (Original post by kenni12)
    Whether it's old or new, not only that it doesn't matter but it's even makes it to show that no matter what testament/time it is, that the biblical god is a non changing god. The "not a man that he should lie" part means, in my opinion, that he isn't a human or an offspring of a human that can possibly lie. I personally don't see how it has to do with Jesus, anyway you're right they're so many interpretations of the bible, even amongs christians, which is why I as a non-christian only read and understand the bible as it says, verse by verse.
    The Bible is not the word of God. It is the word of man describing the actions of God. As such, it is influenced by what man knows at a particular time. The Biblical God might be unchanging, but our perception of that God has changed throughout history.

    You may choose to interpret the Bible literally, but that doesn't mean it's the only correct way to do it.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    Whether each person wrote each book or not, any group of person that knows one being or has contact with him/her should be able to agree with what he does or can do, otherwise there's a possiblity that one or more or none of them really don't know him. If I were to allow people to write books on my whole life and others were reading it, but refuse to believe the book was really inspired by me, because of contradictions, I won't blame them, I'd rather put the blame on the writters. OK, besides the Abrahamic god(s), what about other gods, what about the gods of the past cultures like the african gods or the greek gods that lost popularity because of christian/islamic crusades, colonisation and missionaries. I put the word "books" in quotation marks because that's what christians call them, even though they are in a book.
    You don't have to know/agree on everything about God to believe in him. I don't think a relationship with God can be interpreted in the same way as a relationship with a person; you might better use the phrase "If I were a mystical being for which conclusive proof is hotly contested", or somesuch in your analogy.

    What did you mean about the other Gods you mention?

    I guess it is a contradiction of sorts to use "Holy Book" and e.g. "Book of Genesis" separately. Books within books?

    (Original post by kenni12)
    Well, if a book has many people adoring it's so-called inspirer of the book and using it as something to judge the morality of the acts others incuding non believers, leaving them with pointless guilt and low self esteem, despite many more reliable alternatives, like putting yourselves in ones shoes or wondering how harmful the act is to others, then that's when it should be questioned as a guide book to morality. Christians say that the bible is inspired by the God of the bible therefore it most be obeyed, we skeptical non-believers respond with "show me that your God is real, especially in accordance with the bible, before we decide".
    Putting yourself in the other person's shoes is (believe it or not) a New Testament concept as well; you've probably heard of "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.". I personally agree that when statements in the Bible cause harm to others, they should be analysed and rejected by Christians. However, I can't see an argument against using the Bible as a tool, keeping bits that you feel are reflections of your personal moral code and rejecting bits that you don't like. This might be described as "cherry-picking", but most Christian denominations exhibit this behaviour to differing extents.

    There are defences for more traditional interpretations of the Bible as well, and although I do have experience in such interpretations, I think other Christians would do them better justice.
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    (Original post by Akinfenwa123)
    you have completely missed the point, homosexuality is not an addiction. it is a sexual preference, just as heterosexuality is. by your rights you have an addiction in liking men. and why should they change? by saying it is an addiction you are saying it is a choice, why on earth would anyone choose to be a social outcast? and you get straight women who are infertile, my auntie for one. are you saying that her sex is "immoral" and "wrong" due to the fact she can't reproduce? and what does who productive the sex you take part in anything to do with it being right or wrong? if you give me your personal reasons for thinking homosexuality is wrong without saying "because it says so in the bible" then i would greatly appreciate it.

    you wonder why gay people dislike religious people who think homosexuality is wrong? you call it an "addiction" and comparing it to other addictions such as smoking which we no is wrong for your health, and you wonder why gay people are offended? being homosexual or heterosexual or any other sexuality does NOT affect the type of person you are and you shouldn't say anything is wrong that does not hurt other people.
    what people do behind close doors is nothing to do with you unless it is harming others. if i was gay and i called you wrong and immoral for being straight how would you feel? even suggesting that it is something to "cure" is an insult to the gay community.
    This is exactly how I feel. I'm at a loss for words.:unsure: I don't understand how a person can rationalise an equivalation between the love of two people of the same gender and such self-destructive behaviour such as drug abuse.
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    God needs to bless you a little bit more, since you sound quite crazy.
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    This gives a petty thorough account of the Catholic standpoint.
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality
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    I tried to keep an open mind about this thread, but i can't take anyone who sees being gay as something to repent and as an addiction(??) seriously. Also, i can't see how on earth you agree with people becoming "Ex-gay" - supporting making people feel guilty and shameful for something they can't control doesn't sound particularly Christian.
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    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    The Bible is not the word of God. It is the word of man describing the actions of God. As such, it is influenced by what man knows at a particular time. The Biblical God might be unchanging, but our perception of that God has changed throughout history.

    You may choose to interpret the Bible literally, but that doesn't mean it's the only correct way to do it.



    You don't have to know/agree on everything about God to believe in him. I don't think a relationship with God can be interpreted in the same way as a relationship with a person; you might better use the phrase "If I were a mystical being for which conclusive proof is hotly contested", or somesuch in your analogy.

    What did you mean about the other Gods you mention?

    I guess it is a contradiction of sorts to use "Holy Book" and e.g. "Book of Genesis" separately. Books within books?



    Putting yourself in the other person's shoes is (believe it or not) a New Testament concept as well; you've probably heard of "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.". I personally agree that when statements in the Bible cause harm to others, they should be analysed and rejected by Christians. However, I can't see an argument against using the Bible as a tool, keeping bits that you feel are reflections of your personal moral code and rejecting bits that you don't like. This might be described as "cherry-picking", but most Christian denominations exhibit this behaviour to differing extents.

    There are defences for more traditional interpretations of the Bible as well, and although I do have experience in such interpretations, I think other Christians would do them better justice.
    The reason why their perception of god changed, is because Christians just like to pick parts of the bible that sound attractive to them individually. I'm sure if the slave trades were still going on, you won't be able to use the bible to oppose them, rather it would be the other way round, because there are so many verses that supports it, now we leave in a world were a moral person can see that slavery is bad, no thanks to the bible, but concern for others. That's why there are Christians who drink and justify it with the story about Jesus turning water into wine, others don't and justify it with verses like "your body is the temple of god...".

    Maybe the literal interpretation is the correct way, maybe not, but until the god of the bible can show up and do something about it, rather than sitting idly by and letting all of us, especially christians, to contradict each other, then I'll stick to it.

    OK, If I were a mystical being for which conclusive proof is hotly contested?, why let my creations contest for it, when I'm so omnipotent, that I can make them see the proof consistently.

    This is what I mean by other gods;


    "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.", I know it's in the bible, but, like I said one doesn't need the bible to figure that out and see why it's necessary. Well I suppose that's good keeping the bits of the bible that you agree with as long as you don't use it to judge others e.g. gay people, uncircumsized babies, sexually liberal people, non-believers, the whole society, e.t.c or get away without whatever you want e.g. tax exemptions for religious projects.

    TBH, even though I'm an atheist, I can't prove that there isn't a god, but there's nothing that makes me believe that it's the god of the bible, nor is there anything that makes me believe that there's just one god.
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    With regard to the reasons why you think people are hostile:

    . <----This is the point








    :lolwut: <------This is you

    you have missed the point....its not because people have been bad to them.... its because they know that homosexuality isnt chosen, and its not fair to take the piss out of someone who has no control over their sexual attractions, getting angry at the stupidity of people (not all but usually religious) who think otherwise...
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    (Original post by kenni12)
    The reason why their perception of god changed, is because Christians just like to pick parts of the bible that sound attractive to them individually. I'm sure if the slave trades were still going on, you won't be able to use the bible to oppose them, rather it would be the other way round, because there are so many verses that supports it, now we leave in a world were a moral person can see that slavery is bad, no thanks to the bible, but concern for others. That's why there are Christians who drink and justify it with the story about Jesus turning water into wine, others don't and justify it with verses like "your body is the temple of god...".
    Rather, one could argue that the Bible condones slavery because it was socially acceptable to do so at the time. In those times, people may not have seen slavery as contravening, for example, the Ten Commandments, for whatever reason. As for the abolishment of slavery, I believe a lot of early abolishonists were inspired at least in part by their Christian faith.

    Why can't the Bible be interpreted on an individual basis? With regards to your ideas about drinking, why shouldn't someone use the Bible to make their decision? Is that any worse than deciding "I want to enjoy the effects of alcohol, so I choose to drink"?

    (Original post by kenni12)
    Maybe the literal interpretation is the correct way, maybe not, but until the god of the bible can show up and do something about it, rather than sitting idly by and letting all of us, especially christians, to contradict each other, then I'll stick to it.
    I'm afraid that the demands you make on Christianity cannot be satisfied by its more liberal branches. Christian theology simply isn't thought of in those terms, and it's reasonable for you not to except the kind of mind-frame upon which such theology is based.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    OK, If I were a mystical being for which conclusive proof is hotly contested?, why let my creations contest for it, when I'm so omnipotent, that I can make them see the proof consistently.

    This is what I mean by other gods;
    Yes, I know of those Gods, but why did you bring them up?

    (Original post by kenni12)
    "Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.", I know it's in the bible, but, like I said one doesn't need the bible to figure that out and see why it's necessary. Well that's good keeping the bits of the bible that you agree with as long as you don't use it to judge others e.g. gay people, uncircumsized babies, sexually liberal people, non-believers, the whole society, etc or get away without whatever you want.
    I agree. Personally, I find that the Bible is helpful as a reminder for me to be a good person. When I hear readings in church, or listen to a good sermon, I am often reminded about negative things that I have said or done during the week, many of which I didn't necessarily think about at the time. A lot of the time, I leave services with an idea to put into practice about how I can improve my life, or my relationships with other people.

    I guess though that atheists would argue either that they don't need reminding of such things, or that they get their reminding from other sources. I'm interested to hear what you think!

    (Original post by kenni12)
    TBH, even though I'm an atheist, I can't prove that there isn't a god, but there's nothing that makes me believe that it's the god of the bible
    Even though I'm a Christian, I can't prove that there is a god. There are things that matter to me more than proof.
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    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    Rather, one could argue that the Bible condones slavery because it was socially acceptable to do so at the time. In those times, people may not have seen slavery as contravening, for example, the Ten Commandments, for whatever reason.
    That's what I'm saying, even the ten commandments have nothing to do with slavery.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    As for the abolishment of slavery, I believe a lot of early abolishonists were inspired at least in part by their Christian faith.
    I'm sure that what ever their inspiration was, the bible had nothing to do with it, coz, not even one bible verse absolutely condemns slavery.
    Why do you think there are Christians that support secularism, abortion or LGBT rights?, do you think there would have been any back then? would they be able use bible verses to back it up?.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    Why can't the Bible be interpreted on an individual basis? With regards to your ideas about drinking, why shouldn't someone use the Bible to make their decision? Is that any worse than deciding "I want to enjoy the effects of alcohol, so I choose to drink"?
    If they want to they can, as long as they know that non-believers who drink don't have to by that excuse against drinking.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    I'm afraid that the demands you make on Christianity cannot be satisfied by its more liberal branches. Christian theology simply isn't thought of in those terms, and it's reasonable for you not to except the kind of mind-frame upon which such theology is based.
    Plus, I even suspect that first christians took the bible literally, especially, the human sacrifice and burnt offering parts.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    Yes, I know of those Gods, but why did you bring them up?
    Because, they are as likely to exist as the god of the bible, I brought them up to show/remind you that even if there's a god, it could possibly not be the god described in the bible i.e Yahweh.


    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    I agree. Personally, I find that the Bible is helpful as a reminder for me to be a good person. When I hear readings in church, or listen to a good sermon, I am often reminded about negative things that I have said or done during the week, many of which I didn't necessarily think about at the time. A lot of the time, I leave services with an idea to put into practice about how I can improve my life, or my relationships with other people.
    I guess though that atheists would argue either that they don't need reminding of such things, or that they get their reminding from other sources. I'm interested to hear what you think![/QUOTE]

    I don't know about other atheists, the only thing that makes someone an atheist is a disbelieve in gods, but as for me, I do get my morals from other sources if you can call it that. For example, there was something I did that almost got me expuled from one of the schools I attended, the responses from people including the student I did it to and the punishment I received in substitute for the expulsion was enough to make me embarassed enough to make me wish I never did it.
    Now, I've matured up to the point, enough that nowadays, When ever I do something, I ask myself

    -Were there people that were affected by it?
    -Did those people have any negative feelings from it?
    -Did I gain anything special from doing it?
    -Is there anything worse that could've happened if I didn't do it at all?
    If the answer to the first two are yes and the answer to the last two are no, then I wouldn't do it again at all.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    Even though I'm a Christian, I can't prove that there is a god. There are things that matter to me more than proof.
    Well, you're the first Christian I've heard admit about that and that's good, but since you can't, my advice is don't be biased about your beliefs, especially when interracting with others. For example, If anyone wants to believe that pigs can fly, that's ok, as long as one don't throw a pig from a building .
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    (Original post by kenni12)
    That's what I'm saying, even the ten commandments have nothing to do with slavery.

    I'm sure that what ever their inspiration was, the bible had nothing to do with it, coz, not even one bible verse absolutely condemns slavery.
    Why do you think there are Christians that support secularism, abortion or LGBT rights?, do you think there would have been any back then? would they be able use bible verses to back it up?.
    I guess that part of the reason that I support those things is because I believe that supporting them is in accordance with Christian teachings on tolerance or acceptance, even though a number of Christian religious communities may disagree with me on this. I believe that many values as seen in the New Testament are timeless and unchanging. They need to be supported by Christians, atheists and people of other faiths alike.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    If they want to they can, as long as they know that non-believers who drink don't have to by that excuse against drinking.

    Plus, I even suspect that first christians took the bible literally, especially, the human sacrifice and burnt offering parts.

    Because, they are as likely to exist as the god of the bible, I brought them up to show/remind you that even if there's a god, it could possibly not be the god described in the bible i.e Yahweh.
    Why does there have to be a consensus view of God throughout humanity? The phrase "the God described in the Bible" doesn't really make sense to me, I guess because I'm a bit of a pluralist. I believe that when people pray from any religion, they all pray to the same God.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    I guess though that atheists would argue either that they don't need reminding of such things, or that they get their reminding from other sources. I'm interested to hear what you think!
    (Original post by kenni12)
    I don't know about other atheists, the only thing that makes someone an atheist is a disbelieve in gods, but as for me, I do get my morals from other sources if you can call it that. For example, there was something I did that almost got me expuled from one of the schools I attended, the responses from people including the student I did it to and the punishment I received in substitute for the expulsion was enough to make me embarassed enough to make me wish I never did it.
    Now, I've matured up to the point, enough that nowadays, When ever I do something, I ask myself

    -Were there people that were affected by it?
    -Did those people have any negative feelings from it?
    -Did I gain anything special from doing it?
    -Is there anything worse that could've happened if I didn't do it at all?
    If the answer to the first two are yes and the answer to the last two are no, then I wouldn't do it again at all.
    Whilst I agree that that your reflections on what happened are a good thing, there are two things lacking:

    1. You may not notice when you do bad things - this happens to almost everyone.
    2. Punishment for doing something wrong does not equal a reminder to do things right.

    I would argue that some sort of secular institution that can provide positive social and moral teaching could be helpful to atheists, just as it is often helpful to religious people. Note that I don't refer to social teaching over which there is currently controversy (namely the issues we touched on earlier: abortion, LGBT rights), but to actually a large part of social teaching over which there is common ground between religious people and atheists.

    (Original post by kenni12)
    Well, you're the first Christian I've heard admit about that and that's good, but since you can't, my advice is don't be biased about your beliefs, especially when interracting with others. For example, If anyone wants to believe that pigs can fly, that's ok, as long as one don't throw a pig from a building .
    I used to call myself an agnostic theist because I held that view; that no-one can prove the existence or non-existence of God. My decision to call myself a Christian came because even though I called myself an agnostic theist, I continued to go to services in Churches regularly, and I felt a part of the local Christian community. I guess I am also proud of Christian teaching, much as I despair of it sometimes; although I feel there is room for improvement, I am pleased that Christian social teaching champions causes or moral principles that are often forgotten about.
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    (Original post by kenni12)
    .
    I guess the other thing that I had forgotten about as a reason why I decided to keep my Christian identity, is how much work churches do to help those both in their local communities and people in other countries. My local church always announced projects they were working on to help homeless people, drug addicts, asylum seekers etc. in the local area, and always made a big deal of delivering petitions to the government for social justice in this country and abroad. Again, I think there needs to be a more established regular secular alternative.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello,

    One thing I have noticed in the short time I have been on this forum is the hatred and hostility by some people directed towards Abrahamic beliefs, Christian beliefs in particular, and towards anyone in specific for believing that homosexuality is wrong.

    Granted, I understand that it is wrong for Christians to hate people period, whether people engaged in homosexual lifestyles or people engaged in heterosexual hedonistic lifestyles or people of any belief, ethnicity, gender. Jesus commands his followers to love people, including their enemies, and to forgive, pray for, do good to, bless and help people, not insult them or treat them badly or hate them.


    Now, why is it that there is such this extreme hatred and hostility against those who believe homosexuality is wrong? Is it because you have experienced hatred and hostility from people of Abrahamic faiths? Is it because it just offends you that people believe differently than you do? Why is it exactly?

    If it is because you have experienced hatred and hostility on the part of Christians, then I as a Christian apologize to you and am ashamed. Christians are not to insult or hate people no matter what. We are to love others, pray for others, do good to them, bless those who curse us, and help those in need. I repeat this because it is so important.

    As for those who are merely offended just because Abrahamic beliefs think that homosexuality is wrong, there are people who disagree with many things, and yet do not feel the need to be hostile about differences.

    Concerning me, I personally do not agree with everything that some people think is wrong, but I don't hate them. For example, I have some very sweet Muslim friends who think not wearing a head covering is wrong. However, I disagree and respect their right to believe what they believe is true, even though I disagree. They know why I disagree; we have talked about it, and yet we do not resort to hatred and hostility in spite of our differences in what we believe to be wrong and right.

    Concerning homosexuality, I have friends who are homosexual, as well as I have favorite famous people believed to be homosexual who I absolutely adore (Jim Parsons and Anderson Cooper) who I respect as human beings that are intelligent, handsome, fun, and interesting. I do not condemn them to hell. I do think that their lifestyle is wrong, but I in no way try to force them to change. I also think that the average heterosexual rocker's lifestyle of drugs, sex, and alcohol is wrong, but I don't force them to change. However, I do believe that if they should decide to stop living how they are living and seek God's help to live in line with the Bible, that is their right and I commend them for it.


    Why most Christians believe homosexuality, as well as other forms of sexual immorality (which there are many, most being heterosexual forms, but bestiality is also a form of sexual immorality) is wrong is because of the following Scriptures:
    Genesis 19
    Leviticus 18:1-24
    Leviticus 20:1-17

    Matthew 15:16-20, Matthew 19:1-9
    Acts 15:19-29
    Romans 1:18-32
    1 Corinthians 6:9-20
    Galatians 5:16-23
    Colossians 3:5-19

    Even though Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality, Jesus was a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob (Israel) who grew up following the commands God gave to the children of Israel through Moses. Homosexuality was not allowed since the time of Moses. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, his 12 sons, Moses, Samuel, King David, King Solomon, Isaiah, and many other predominant people were not homosexual, but rather hetersexual. Does this mean that God doesn't love homosexuals? No. God does love them, just as He loves every person who engages in sexual immorality and wants them to repent.

    If you disagree, could you please give the reason why in a polite way, using evidence from the Scriptures? If you do not believe in God, may I ask why you are even writing in a section dedicated to discussing beliefs in God? I know if I didn't believe in God, I would not waste my time writing those who did. Do you write in order to just insult what other people believe, or are you wanting to explain why you believe there is no God and to attempt to understand what people who believe differently than you believe?

    If you are writing to explain that there is no God, can you please explain with what you consider to be evidence, in a polite and educated way?

    Back to homosexuality, those who believe homosexuality is wrong have reasons for that belief. Now, one either agrees or disagrees. If you disagree, why not respond with kindness, politeness, and explain why you disagree? It does not take intelligence, maturity, or integrity to insult someone or to want them to go away. Just to add, I am not going to respond anymore to people whose posts include insults. However, if you have something that you'd like to write that intelligently explains why you disagree, I would love to read your post and answer.

    Thank you.

    Peace and God bless you
    I think the emphasis in the scriptures isn't that homosexuality alone is wrong, it is this whole notion that leading a hedonistic lifestyle is considered as morally wrong. It is just that homosexuality is lumped in with that. In Leviticus and the New Testament scriptures, it talks about other forms of "sexual deviances", such as adultery, orgy, prostitution, fornication, sodomy (anal intercourse), misogyny and "machoism" and how they are sinful. However, it seems to be that as homosexual practice is practiced in the minority, and that from a heterosexual point of view, is the most obscure and difficult to comprehend, is it picked upon, and so majority label the minority as wrong-doers and say "they are going to hell", when actually the ones who are pointing the finger are often equally as guilty because the scripture makes no distinction between the severity of sin, because it is seen as an absence of God as opposed to a quantifiable thing, and many people Christians and non-Christians have slept around and have our vices, so it is not for any of us to judge and potentially be hypocritical.

    Instead God leaves it up to us to reconcile our sins, our vices and sexual deviances, hence you hear the doctrine that God loves us and will grant forgiveness if you ask of it.

    I'm a Christian but I generally like to stay clear of such things and not get involved, but I think I feel the need to say my piece, as it annoys me when people say that God condones homosexuality but it annoys me more when Christians (who themselves have skeletons in their closet, and have slept with prostitutes and cheated - believe me I know lots) are prejudice and promote prejudice to homosexual people and other extremist views in the name of God. I find that there are generally only extreme views and odd interpretations of scripture, and it's never put into context nor to people stop and think that maybe that saying that "a homosexual man/woman is going to hell" or calling them derogatory names and ostracizing them isn't a Christian thing to do.
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    (Original post by Christianlady)
    Hello,

    One thing I have noticed in the short time I have been on this forum is the hatred and hostility by some people directed towards Abrahamic beliefs, Christian beliefs in particular, and towards anyone in specific for believing that homosexuality is wrong.

    Granted, I understand that it is wrong for Christians to hate people period, whether people engaged in homosexual lifestyles or people engaged in heterosexual hedonistic lifestyles or people of any belief, ethnicity, gender. Jesus commands his followers to love people, including their enemies, and to forgive, pray for, do good to, bless and help people, not insult them or treat them badly or hate them.


    Now, why is it that there is such this extreme hatred and hostility against those who believe homosexuality is wrong? Is it because you have experienced hatred and hostility from people of Abrahamic faiths? Is it because it just offends you that people believe differently than you do? Why is it exactly?

    If it is because you have experienced hatred and hostility on the part of Christians, then I as a Christian apologize to you and am ashamed. Christians are not to insult or hate people no matter what. We are to love others, pray for others, do good to them, bless those who curse us, and help those in need. I repeat this because it is so important.

    As for those who are merely offended just because Abrahamic beliefs think that homosexuality is wrong, there are people who disagree with many things, and yet do not feel the need to be hostile about differences.

    Concerning me, I personally do not agree with everything that some people think is wrong, but I don't hate them. For example, I have some very sweet Muslim friends who think not wearing a head covering is wrong. However, I disagree and respect their right to believe what they believe is true, even though I disagree. They know why I disagree; we have talked about it, and yet we do not resort to hatred and hostility in spite of our differences in what we believe to be wrong and right.

    Concerning homosexuality, I have friends who are homosexual, as well as I have favorite famous people believed to be homosexual who I absolutely adore (Jim Parsons and Anderson Cooper) who I respect as human beings that are intelligent, handsome, fun, and interesting. I do not condemn them to hell. I do think that their lifestyle is wrong, but I in no way try to force them to change. I also think that the average heterosexual rocker's lifestyle of drugs, sex, and alcohol is wrong, but I don't force them to change. However, I do believe that if they should decide to stop living how they are living and seek God's help to live in line with the Bible, that is their right and I commend them for it.


    Why most Christians believe homosexuality, as well as other forms of sexual immorality (which there are many, most being heterosexual forms, but bestiality is also a form of sexual immorality) is wrong is because of the following Scriptures:
    Genesis 19
    Leviticus 18:1-24
    Leviticus 20:1-17

    Matthew 15:16-20, Matthew 19:1-9
    Acts 15:19-29
    Romans 1:18-32
    1 Corinthians 6:9-20
    Galatians 5:16-23
    Colossians 3:5-19

    Even though Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality, Jesus was a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob (Israel) who grew up following the commands God gave to the children of Israel through Moses. Homosexuality was not allowed since the time of Moses. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, his 12 sons, Moses, Samuel, King David, King Solomon, Isaiah, and many other predominant people were not homosexual, but rather hetersexual. Does this mean that God doesn't love homosexuals? No. God does love them, just as He loves every person who engages in sexual immorality and wants them to repent.

    If you disagree, could you please give the reason why in a polite way, using evidence from the Scriptures? If you do not believe in God, may I ask why you are even writing in a section dedicated to discussing beliefs in God? I know if I didn't believe in God, I would not waste my time writing those who did. Do you write in order to just insult what other people believe, or are you wanting to explain why you believe there is no God and to attempt to understand what people who believe differently than you believe?

    If you are writing to explain that there is no God, can you please explain with what you consider to be evidence, in a polite and educated way?

    Back to homosexuality, those who believe homosexuality is wrong have reasons for that belief. Now, one either agrees or disagrees. If you disagree, why not respond with kindness, politeness, and explain why you disagree? It does not take intelligence, maturity, or integrity to insult someone or to want them to go away. Just to add, I am not going to respond anymore to people whose posts include insults. However, if you have something that you'd like to write that intelligently explains why you disagree, I would love to read your post and answer.

    Thank you.

    Peace and God bless you
    May I just pick up on one point you made: 'their lifestyle is wrong'. Just like you are heterosexual, Jim Parsons and many others are homosexual. There is no choice in the matter, they are born that way. I do not think it is right for someone to condemn the happiness and fulfilment of the loving relationships that many homosexuals have.

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